quite interesing, Ting Fa!

Can't wait to read the answers. Thank you!

great painting, dear Cecilia.

I usually prefer being second in Hyerarchy. Not having the burden of decision making, even if we clearly know what should be done, ... is much more comfortable!

This, of course, is rather a feminine point of view.

I wonder if Richelieu was a woman.

Dear Ting,

One can but evaluate or guess the historical parallels. In real cases, the relationship of bosses to each other, the nature of power and the concrete situation should be considered. I met mostly petite despots without grey eminences. These people have had no human dignity and honour.

Dear All,

I am afraid, the grey eminence was François Leclerc du Tremblay, the right-hand man of Cardinal Richelieu. Leclerc was a Capuchin friar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Leclerc_du_Tremblay

When I read the Three musketeers by Alexandre Dumas, he wrote also on a Capuchin friar as the grey eminence of Richelieu.

Dear discussants,

but then no one knows who is the perpetrator and who the victim. It is a problem of predator-prey.

The dear Cecilia tells us that the phenomenon is embedded. The sequence of passing the buck of power would be so: the king, Mazzarin, the friar of Mazarin, the mother of the friar, the maid of the mother, the dog's maid. Then the real power and the resulting responsibilities are delegated to the dog?

Affectionately

Ting Fa Marg

If it is an elected position, the person elected should be responsible.

However, one should always be able to take advice from trusted advisers who are expert on the various topics of relevance. That would be like the "Picard School of Management" (Star Trek: NG). :-) That is, you make knowledgeable decisions based on advice from all the appropriate experts. (I liked that show. It showed my son people working together, often not fighting with anyone!)

As for marriages, they should just be partnerships. Of course it isn't quite like that in practice, but give and take is definitely necessary.

So, heads should listen to grays. Who has more power? That varies by individual dynamics.

Dear Ting

Jokingly I can be a gray eminence without a head. Tomorrow I will try to answer what I personally believe in my daily life and my little experience.

Best regards

In my experience, those in charge usually got there for all the wrong reasons, are generally clueless, and do not listen to anyone who knows anything. Sad but true. 

Often, things get done in spite of, not because of 'management.'  

The question you ask is the answer you get: in this case, I would beg to point out that each of us plays multiple roles in our everyday life, as well as in life in general. So there are times when we are the grey eminence and other times one is the head. For the competent, the roles are usually thrust upon them, so they find themselves as actors in an unfolding drama. For the incompetent, the position is usually achieved with much scheming and plotting. Regardless of the means of achieving the role, one will often find that the roles change from day to day as the situation unfolds, so that sometimes, wily-nilly, one is safely behind the scenes, the grey eminence and at others, one is facing the music or the glory broadside on in the role of head....

To return to the posing of the question, this is not a matter to which one can safely pose as an either/or choice, but concerns a both/and viewpoint.

Henry Kissinger, who wondered what was the phone number of Europe, today would have an answer. The number is this. Too bad that does not have the prefix of Brussels but Berlin. And 'here, in fact, from the palace of glass and white concrete of the Chancellery, which actually govern the destiny of five hundred million European citizens, though only eighty million Germans have the right to choose who will guide then everyone else. The prevalence of Germany is now an established fact in Europe. At first it was only a prevalence economic. Then it became political. Now reached levels of prevalence cultural. View from Brussels, home to the Community institutions, it is also tangibly a prevalence bureaucratic and administrative. Germany has placed his trusted men (almost always organic to the party of Chancellor) in all the nerve centers of the European machine.

The display of the Putin regime that glorified the owner of the Kremlin as a savior who removed his homeland deadly embrace of the oligarchs and the wild privatization of strategic assets in Russia, was signed by a stage name obscure. The author was Igor Sechin, the powerful deputy at the time of Prime Minister Putin, the man who was holding all the Russian energy sector.

Courses and recurrences of history, @Marg. Are you sure that a mutual interaction between the the Gray eminence or the Head is not a need for the survival of the power concept?

Dear Ting,

The head has definitely more authority, but not necessarily power than the grey eminence. The grey eminence has also an essential and needed empowering effect  to the leading person in decision making processes. The reason is purely mathematical. Social systems and behaviors are chaotic in nature, unmeasured but  small perturbations bring huge changes and unintended outcomes on the system. In most successful cases, the grey eminence is very essential in playing an agent of measuring and minimizing the perturbation amount so that outcomes will not be completely out of the ordinary and erratic which causes trouble, dysfunction and failure within the system.

They also play in enlarging the perturbation amount in the case of a weak person/head so that the right and intended effect is reached.

Who is competent and expert is more powerful in any area of life?

Philadelphia, PA

Dear Chang,

This strikes me as an interesting question, but more because it brings to light questions concerning styles of leadership and politics. We naturally assume that people can simply be themselves and say what they think. But we have all perhaps sometimes encountered versions of one thing hiding behind another, or one person hiding behind another.

My sense of the phenomenon of one person hiding behind another is that it is a sign of a rather byzantine style of politics, and nothing very positive. When politics and matters of appearance get that complicated, it is likely better to do some reorganizing --breaking down overly complicated situations or organizations. Similarly, "representatives" may hide, one behind the other. You get someone of character xyz to represent the interests of abc, because the xyz folks are not likely to be accused of blind prejudice in favor of abc, as the abc folks might be. This again, I take to be a kind of byzantine politics, meaning by that something overly sophisticated, excessively complicated and perhaps even directly deceptive.

I take it there are degrees and variations on similar configurations. Sometimes they can be bothersome, even destructive; at other times or in other variations, they can be pretty innocuous --at least for those who have some familiarity and who have learned to deal with similar situations. Certainly, I'd rather be Seneca than Nero, but neither role really appeals to me.

I'd rather be Socrates, but then, again, I don't do philosophy on the market square.

Amor fate. To thine own self be true.

H.G. Callaway

First, gnothi seauton. 

A mutual, fair and wise interaction between the gray eminence and the head would not be a bad idea--in my humble opinion! 

With few exceptions through history, there has always been the gray eminence (who holds power) & the head (who holds superficial authority). The real rulers of a certain country prefer to be kept in the shadow while their servant is "projected out" as the one who "leads". This is the political game of  the "royalty makers". 

Performing my duties with full dedication and capabilities is much more importance for me, no matter in which role.

Everyone is equal, they know when they have to wield the power, but when it comes to application it depends on for what , at whom, and at what situation;

Good question!

Never looked at this question that way... I think being a head and sufficiently smart so that there is no need for a help from any gray eminince could be an ideal situation

Dear Krishnan and Zaal,

everybody needs advice in the process of decision choice, but the problem arises when a Head is becoming dependent from a single person for each decision. This is the case of the gray eminence.

Kind regards to you and to RG fellows.

Ting Fa Marg

My submission on the question as i understand is about who has power. The answer is obviously the grey eminence. It is the absolute power. generally it is with low or less accountability. If head is some one different.

The power as a term is in itself a wide term. I am referring to the expert power.  

If we are looking at power from position view and a person occupying a position has the capacity to use it.(has the expertise power) Than such a a person would actually not have a any need for grey eminence advising.

Dear All I also believe that Gray Eminence has more power than head. Thanks

@Enzo and RG discussants,

your idea, widely shared in Italy, is that in the European Union Germany is the eminence grise and that in fact the EU Governance only takes orders. This would be the cost of being able to have a phone number of Europe as asked by Kissinger.

The dominant opinion in Italy (in Greece and perhaps in Spain) is that Germany is putting the economies of the countries with the largest budget deficit in the knock to the ground, deepening the crisis and bringing them to their default.

Germany proposes its own model that is extremely rigorous. Should perhaps say to all: "do what you want and then never mind if the whole boat is going to sink."

The problem is that Germany has a strong economy and low taxation. The countries of the EU in crisis rather have a weak economy and high taxation. This is not a trivial problem in the economic field (the Keynesian Multiplier is involved and the underemployemnt equilibrium).

I'd like to know  from the other members of the RG if there is also a political problem similar in their countries.

Kind regards

Ting Fa Marg

Power is something you get , authority is something you have. In the absence of authority, any power in use is coercive.Those who have authority can influence others without the need of power to do so.

Regarding the crisis our governments had the power but they proved that didn't have the authority.

Dear Ting

Power is not necessarily the only way to succeed without the eminence of the gray matter. Decision-making power not alone holds all the keys. Paired power to the gray matter to decide the welfare of a people called me "wisdom". For me it is better to belong to a gray eminence while in the shade but uses the power of others to get things done. You can be a leader in any field without being a good leader.

Best regards

Ting - Helmut Schmidt fairly recently noted that the rest of Europe had helped Germany economically, and he thought Germany should return the favor.  I guess Angela Merkel didn't consult him. - Jim 

Gray eminence may take decisions taking past events into account that are not accessible to the decision-maker/head?

This manipulation and politics of/in the organization. This is universal phenomenon.

I think it depends on the role in an organisation or authority. If a person role is best as grey eminence, then he/she has the steering power more than a head. However, I assume that the head would like to take advice from the grey eminence unless he/she feels that everything in control and can make his/her own decision. In the case of my experience I played both roles and have succeeded  doing both.

In many countries, the undersecretary of a ministry may hold the position for so many years until reaching retirement.  Ministers come & go, sometimes, in short intervals. Generally, the minister is no more than a ring on the finger of this secretary. The undersecretary is often not accountable while the minister may be "cornered" or "humiliated" in the parliament. Obviously, no one -who knows this fact- will seek the post of a minster unless there is readiness for losing self-dignity & integrity. 

In my country there is a saying: "Man is the head of the family and woman is the nape, that directs the heads where she would like"!

Sometimes the power is at Grey persons, other times is at Head. In modern Greece there exist so many gray zones, that my answer is: certainly the Grey!

In Georgia also an intersting  situation... Many would say that the ruling coalition is in reality governed by a puppetmaster, multi-billioner and the richest person in Georgia who actually led this coalition to the victory through the last elections, but soon after that resigned and now stays in shade...

there is a turkish movie that has a very big success. harim el sultan  with the othoman sultan suleimane le magnifique and his wife the sultana roxelane. the sultana roxelane is the gray eminence and the sultan suleimane is the head. 

my answer to the question (would you prefer to act as a gray eminence or as a head?). i prefer to see the movie of life it' s more funny.

Leadership Styles Around The World

Different cultures can have radically different leadership styles, and international organizations would do well to understand them.

http://www.businessinsider.in/24-Charts-Of-Leadership-Styles-Around-The-World/articleshow/28479920.cms

To Krishan:   What a wonderful chart, and I found that similarity leadership on France, German, and Indonesia.... I endorse that.

To Hamouda: I prefer see the movie of life's ....it is more funny..... ;)

To Brenda: I am agree that person behind scene has more power...

To Dejenie: I am agree grey eminence has also an essential and needed empowering effect ......

To Ali: what a  the power of the nobility.......... 

To Cecilia: I am agree that powe is depending on the situation...........

To Ting Fa: I am agree that real power and the resulting responsibilities are delegated to the dog............

Continuously dependency on subordinates makes you weak and  weak.

Let us look at bright side too… If Gray Eminence pushes for a right decision, which Head cannot understand, perhaps in this case the role of Gray Eminence is positive? European nations hit by crisis may feel that Germany presses or pressed them in not a very appropriate way, but apparently the German model of economic development is better and deserves to be shared? I understand it is not easy to transform from the high tax/low growth model to the low tax/ fast growth one, it needs reducing government spending and supporting small businesses, etc., but is not it worth of taking pains?

The people may have chosen a leader by an election that may be described as fair. In theory, the leader is given a mandate( by the majority) to rule  with proper power & authority. When there is gray eminence ( person who exercises power behind the scenes), then the people are deceived. Why, on earth, is it depicted as free process when a "puppet" is being installed? 

I am agree with Zaal that Gray Eminence pushes for a right decision, which Head cannot understand. I endorse that. 

Dear Cecilia,

Dear All,

I had to suffer under the despotism of a petite tyrant who had an economic governor, a woman. They were very successful in corruption and destroying together the efficiency of work, the atmosphere of the institution as well as the confidence among people. Many simple people became cowardly and servile. The economic governor had a steward like confidante who got enormous power and as she was very vulgar and unintelligent, she abused her power and tried to terrify people. She was detested by everybody and was called witch Mary. Fortunately, none of them are terrorizing us anymore because they got their well deserved retirement. They ruined our life for more than 10 years. Who was the worst? Maybe the tyrant.

Some times, subordinate is active, intelligent and clever that controls the head!

Things are changing, now its performance everywhere; so who ever performs doesn't matter whether its grey or head.

Everyone is equal there is no demarcations, only delivery determines the position.