Does a caste system exist also in scientific academy?

Dear Ting,

Do you wonder the caste system similar subordination structures and the secrete construction of – national – scientific interest groups which may be politically structured?

Dear @Marg, I am aware of such existence of caste system in scientific academy!

Please, let me bring my question that is related to yours here on caste employment. There are more than 100 answers.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Do_you_have_experience_with_caste_employment_at_Universities_in_spite_of_the_law

Krishnan Umachandran

Knowledge and wisdom cannot be stratified to justified possession of certain groups. In today's world access and opportunities are widely and globally available. Facilitation and motivation are key features to make people grow, away from these idiosyncrasies

Debra Sharon Ferdinand-James

Dear András,

there is no doubt that even in the academy there may be lobbies or roped of scholars who are grabbing substantial funds. Have they expertise and skill or are they also part of a caste?

James R Knaub

Ting Fa Marg -

Such anecdotal evidence is not a scientific study, but I think there is good reason to expect these are not isolated cases.

This is the kind of "caste system" that I see.

Jim

Well if not a "Caste System", certainly Centers of Power that determine who moves up or down the Scientific ladder.

Best regards,

Debra

Dejenie A. Lakew

The socio-political caste system that exits in India is purely for the purpose of controlling society politically in the time of colonization probably, not to make one category of just Indians for strength.

There is a saying in Amharic " ድር ፡ ቢያብር፡ አንበሳ ፡ ያስር። " a united threads can tie a lion. Politicians of the past used that strategy, divide and conquer effectively. In this social hierarchy, the existence of a group(s) may not innately be essential per see for the existence of the other and for the system as a whole.

But science can not be that way. First, science is developed incrementally, starting from the beginning of time of human curiosity in understanding nature, curing diseases and solving problems to what it is now. Contemporary scientific community understands and knows well, the interconnectedness of things and scientific cooperation is at most important and for that end any incremental contribution to this important knowledge, however small it may be. is essential.

Today, a result of one field gives impetus not only to strengthen but to create new results in another field, case in point, mathematics and physical sciences. It no more that mathematics grows and expands only from its resources but resources from physical sciences and vise versa.

Dear James, Dear Dejene,

Unfortunately, such incidents are numerous, but everything remains covered perhaps for fear of what these castes or lobbies could do if a person were to complain or to report their behavior.

It follows a quote of Benoit Mandelbrot:

"I was in an industrial laboratory because academia found me unsuitable"

He is recognized for his contribution to the field of fractal geometry, which included coining the word "fractal" as well as for developing a "theory of roughness" and "self-similarity" in nature. He later discovered the Mandelbrot set of intricate, never-ending fractal shapes, named in his honor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot

Abhijit Mitra

Definitely in every system there is a prey-predator relationship and scientific community is not an exception. Exploitation is everywhere in the form of stratification.

Dejenie A. Lakew

Dear Tang and all,

My initial response was on the structure of science it self and the possibility of caste system on it, rejecting for instance an important result because it is from a field that is not liked by the people who are in that field, not how the human society functions in sciences. In the latter case however, actions of humans are some how irrational (how educated and analytical people are ) partly on what they do, in who they favor and who they promote, who they hire and who they don't, regardless of organizations and social structures.

These are commonly prevalent in employment, science, politics, business and as long as such irrational behaviors of making irrational decisions do not disappear, the purposes of learning and rational thinking of higher order are not yet in their state of maturity. People see your name and origin, before they pick you for a position, and they are not ashamed of that when they display their acts of irrational decisions on their websites.

Noman Mohammad

Dear Ting,

I just wanted to point out that there are only 4 castes in Indian system, not five. They are : Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra. Harijan, or people of God was the term used by Mahatma Gandhi for Shudra which was derogatory. Gandhi was against the practice of untouchability and thats was the reason he called the shudras Harijans.

James R Knaub

Ting Fa Marg -

I think that academy can be broken into basically two parts: (1) the academic world of higher education, and (2) the non-academic world of government and private laboratories, government agencies and private organizations, such as the (US) National Academy of Sciences.

Although these worlds greatly overlap, I think that the tendency for there to be a 'caste' system or a system of cliques has a generally somewhat different emphasis between these two worlds. In some cases one may be more likely to have to confront organizations, individuals, and even your own supervisors who are not scientifically inclined, even in a scientific agency/organization. Of course many universities do consulting work for private industry, etc., so there is overlap.

This may not be a very distinct line to draw, but perhaps we should keep the above in mind as we read and write on this topic, here, for your question. It could help us all make better sense of each other's responses.

Jim

H.G. Callaway

Philadelphia, PA

Dear Ting, contributors,

Academic "caste" strikes me as an appropriate term, since it has a history of usage in relation to similar social and political structures of various sorts. Personally, I think of it as essentially a matter of a group orientation to extrinsic sources of power over academic opportunities, as contrasted with a focus on the problems and materials of any particular field of study or subject matter.

It is a "gaming" of the subject-matter to advance members of the particular in-group, as contrasted with evaluation of work, and proposals in relation to the outstanding problems and questions. "Favoritism," "nepotism" and "cronyism" --though this list covers much ground-- are specific forms of cast-like structures, in that they focus on particular kinds of groups --one's friends, family, or cooperative, reciprocating buddies, perhaps.

Some forms are clearly corrupt. Nepotism, the hiring and promoting of members of one's own family, is officially outlawed, almost everywhere, so far as I know --though it continues to exist, even in societies least corrupt by reputation. Other cast-like structures will go below the official radar, and official provisions designed to insure academic integrity; and the more subtle forms depend on general acquiescence and fear, passivity and quietism. Its a recurrent kind of problem, and new subtleties are always coming along.

As a general rule for identifying caste-like structures, I would say that they often involve something that cannot be questioned, or something that people dare not question--some social or political taboo in effect. Whatever cannot be questioned is a likely place to look in order to identify new or emerging forms of academic caste. These are the places in which it tries to hide itself from public or general scrutiny. It seeks out a protective, extrinsic power for protection, and it is generally a matter of trading favors of some sort. "You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." Inquiry into what is going on, inside, is discouraged by holding up the symbolic representation of the taboo. Thus, protected, the in-group is marked by its aggressiveness against outsiders and against departures from its internal strictures.

Generally, (extrinsic) group-power grows with group coherence, and at some point in the growth of group coherence, a strict boundary is created between "insiders" and "outsiders." This may effectively forbid open scientific relationships across the boundaries and involving new actors. Not being fully involved with a place in the in-group, new actors present a problem, since their effects on the in-group cannot be calculated or foreseen. This will tend to disrupt the relationship of the in-group to its sources of extrinsic power. The classical response is to try to build up an alternative in-group, using essentially the same methods, in order to contest the ground of benefits, opportunities, advancement, etc. But this will also tend to perpetuate and propagate the dubious structures.

Another, liberal, strategy is to focus on the subject-matter and make common ground and new professional relations where this may be possible --on the basis of common interests in relation to the subject-matter and its problems. "No man is an island," as the old saying goes, but this does not imply the requirement of going along with every corrupt group or practice one may encounter. It is typical of a corrupting in-group, that it will try to convince outsiders of just that notion.

H.G. Callaway

Hazim Hashim Tahir

Dear Colleagues,

Good Day,

I add my voice to this quotation, too, i.e. we should not have any caste system in scientific academy, we should have "the right person in the right position"!!!

Dear Ivo Carmeiro, Dear Discussants,

You have focalized a very important issue: whether this new term of caste is applicable or not to academic and scientific context. You states that this is not the case because “lacks key elements as endogamic marriage”. I have doubts about your statement since these practices are daily on our eyes with negative consequences on the quiet sparing of our activities.

Moreover you quoted a book and wrote “university structure, hierarchy, promotion systems, control and domination processes are normally described as a corporate/corporative system, a concept coming out from the old corporate system in European medieval period when profession as an exclusive monopole”.

In my opinion, this is an occidental-centric approach. We have only experience of our domination and corporate systems deriving from European medieval period. It is real that the colonialism operated a type of homogenization of the culture and thought and that one might support the idea that the caste system was consolidated during British colonialism dominance, but there are also endogenous forms of academic power whose behavior is specific in various countries and areas.

@Muhammad Azher Nawaz (in a private mail) stresses the focus of my answer whose objective was not to assess the presence of the caste (that is obvious) but to identify the specific caste systems of various countries or areas.

Livio Clemente Piccinini

Dear @Marg, Dear @Ivo and contributors,

I think that corporation power is meaningful for the preservation of the privileged positions. The true problem is: who can enter in the corporation and here lies the concept of caste (sons, wives, cronies amd so on).

Family power (clans) are more ancient and more worldwide then corporations and their cooptation methods (including endogamy) widely entered in the structure of the forms of corporations. Hence corporation inherited the castal structure of hereditary groups.

In conclusion, castal structure comes from feudalism rather than from medieval corporations.

Exception perhaps is the self-made man of the Unites States, but for example in Japan we have the opposite transformation from corporation to feudalism and hereditary positions even in lower level works (technical and office roles).

This is also a reply to @Marg to specfi request to identify the peculiarity of single countries

Hazim Hashim Tahir

Dear Colleagues,

Good Day,

"If education does not create a need for the best in life, then we are stuck in an undemocratic, rigid caste society."

---- Sargent Shriver

Subhash C. Kundu

Early education in India commenced under the supervision of a guru. Initially, education was open to all and seen as one of the methods to achieve Moksha, or enlightenment. As time progressed, due to superiority complexes, the education was imparted on the basis of caste and the related duties that one had to perform as a member of a specific caste.

The Brahmans learned about scriptures and religion while the Kshatriya were educated in the various aspects of warfare.The Vaishya caste learned commerce and other specific vocational courses while education was largely denied to the Shudras, the lowest caste.

The earliest venues of education in India were often secluded from the main population. Students were expected to follow strict monastic guidelines prescribed by the guru and stay away from cities in ashrams. However, as population increased under the Gupta empire centres of urban learning became increasingly common and Cities such as Varanasi and the Buddhist centre at Nalanda became increasingly visible.

In modern India, answers to following questions are as:

1- In what does the caste system consist in scientific academy?

Education is not on the basis of caste system, only affirmative actions for deprived people are available.

2- Which is the highest caste in academic caste system?

Merit is the highest caste in academic caste system.

3- Where is the caste system used today? Is there in your country? In this case describe it.

Not in India. May be in very least developed country.

4- What is the order of the academic caste system?

The order starts from highest merit at top and lower merit at the lowest caste.

Thanks .... !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

Mariia Rubtcova

We have no caste, but there are groups which share resources. Children of scientists often become scientists and they inherit the access to resources

Miranda Yeoh

There is a caste system in scientific academy and I agree with Hazim that it is not what most of us want. We can do without this unjust system. I have often pondered what is the best way of removing these things that don't lead to sustainable development of a community.

For example, caste system is descriptive of Indian society. In scientific academy, Indians who are educated in English are far more successful than those who were schooled in the vernacular schools. Would it not be better for the people and better for the country if students were taught science and math in English from Year 1? For some of us, we want to discuss how REMOVE CASTE SYSTEM IN ACADEMY FOR OURSELVES AND OTHERS.

Dear @Noman and Dear @Abhishek,

I wrote “The Caste System is broken down into five groups” but not that the castes are five. The last group is that of oursiders that are the so called the "untouchables".

Thanks for signalling me that my incomplete and misleading expression. I corrected it.

Best regards

Ting Fa Marg

Dear @Noman and Dear @Abhishek,

I wrote “The Caste System is broken down into five groups” but not that the castes are five. The last group is that of oursiders that are the so called the "untouchables".

Thanks for signalling me that my incomplete and misleading expression. I corrected it.

Please let us know what is the situation about the academic power system in your countries.

Best regards

Ting Fa Marg

Rohit Manilal Parikh

Caste system is an irritating -unifying force.It keeps the blood relation jointly & with harmony & as such it forms the creation of joint family system .

Besides because of the unification of system ,& earlier stages social & family life used to become moral cordial & happy & help the future generation to move with line of system so they used to create a nice social fabrication .

With the passage of the time caste system is likely to remain in passing phase .Our present education system with the mobility for the study ,career ,& such other factors ,during the environment of caste system operates in a diminishing stage .

Marriage outside the cast system & very often with the group of different countries where the language ,cultural system,food,habits differ considerably .In this line policy of give & take make the family & social life happy & smoothly .

Caste system may move at the diminishing stage in the present line of scientific academy

Graeme Smith

I believe the cast system in Western Countries is:

Scientists, and Philosophers (PHD)

Medical Doctors, Engineers(Grad School)

Teachers and Preachers(Bachelors or Masters DEGREE)

Technicians and Social Workers(College Degrees)

Mechanics and Tradespeople(Apprenticeship)

Laborers(On Job Training)

It is not that a lower caste can't aspire to be a higher class, but that there is a glass ceiling that separates these different levels.

Marcel M. Lambrechts

Given the huge diversity in human social organizations in the world, I would tend to say yes. The probability is quite high that at least one system in the world functions like that, or not?

Dear Ting,

Dear All,

Thanks for your answer. Regarding the international but more significantly the local circumstances, there are group and personally – often politically and economically - influenced interest structures and attitude forms that should be followed as a code it somebody wants to build a scientific career. These almost publicly touchable relationships permeate higher education and often the acceptation of project drafts, even some manuscripts that differ from the mainstream scientific trends.

Xu (Wayne) Wang

Dear Ting,

Does a caste system exist in academy faction? Academic development is bound to produce an academic faction, if the academic faction is the academic partnership which formed under certain conditions, then this academic partnership is academic oriented or interest/benefit oriented? Between the academic and the interests, the scholars how to find the fulcrum of balance? Although the answer is very clear, but the reality maybe not very optimistic in some research fields. Thank you for question shared. Best, Wayne.

Gennady Fedulov

Dear Miranda Yeoh,

your last phrase was "For some of us, we want to discuss how REMOVE CASTE SYSTEM IN ACADEMY FOR OURSELVES AND OTHERS". Now I want to present to your consideration my proposal to solve this actual problem for Science Community. Once I read the phrase: "The director can take an actor in the theater to pull but he never let him on stage to play". Using this phrase, I would suggest an answer: "TO REMOVE CASTE SYSTEM IN ACADEMY FOR OURSELVES AND OTHERS" we should leave only the "actors" (Scientists, Researchers) who will play on the "stage" (Science Community). Now the following interesting question arises: How can this be done? My answer would be the following: We should change our point of view to the notion "PAPER". My proposal is the following: the notion "PAPER" must be changed to the notion "PRODUCT" (Functional Site, Online Tool) that can be used in the Internet to solve personal tasks for All People as Scientists, Researchers, Practitioners, Students, and Usual Users without any special knowledge. But in order to create a Functional Site using modern Internet technologies, the Scientists and Researchers must be Developers too. Of course this is a very difficult decision, but it is true in my understanding.

Gennady Fedulov

Dear Ting Fa Margherita Chang,

At the moment I have observed that you affiliated with University of Udine. I was at the conference MIC 2011: 9th Metaheuristics International Conference, Udine, Italy, July 25-28, 2011. Using this opportunity I ask you to convey my sincere greetings to Andrea Schaerf, Luca Di Gaspero and Sara Ceschia (photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/65646987@N04/5981823622/in/photostream/ ) from Gennady Fedulov.

Thank you in advance

Simran Bhullar

Dear Gennady Fedulov,

I disagree with you about "the notion "PAPER" must be changed to the notion "PRODUCT" (Functional Site, Online Tool)"

How do you expect a basic science person to become developer? How can all be involved in developing online tools, who will provide the wet lab data to verfiy the online tools, if one is dealing with some genomics work, like DNA sequencing?

The Japanese Nobel Prize Winner Osamu Shimomura mentioned in his lecture “I don’t do my research for application or any benefit. I just do my research to understand why jellyfish luminesce” and that is the essence of basic sciences. You want to understand something and you start questioning and then see how things develop.

That is why I hate the way the basic science funding is going down the hill, why should everything has an application! Of course, in the long run, the understanding will help in the development and use of some functional application for everything. But not when you just want to know what is happening, why it is happening, how and where it is happening?

There is more to Science than being a Product provider.

Sorry Ting Fa Margherita Chang for digressing from the question being discussed.

Regards

Simran

Dear @Marg, is nepotism extensive in Italy at Academia, as it was mentioned in this article. Fine reading.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/family-fiefdoms-blamed-for-tainting-italian-universities-2089120.html

http://blogs.plos.org/mitsciwrite/2011/11/06/nepotism-study-proves-life-really-is-unfair/

Nizar Matar

Let us admit that caste systems do, indeed, exist in academic institutions. In certain countries, racism classifies students & employees into home & overseas with the home class being favored in facilities, privileges, and opportunities. In other countries, students & staff who belong to the state's party are treated in a better way compared to those who are in the opposition. In some 3rd world countries, nepotism is the rule rather than the exception in "scientific" academies and this nepotism will serve those who have affiliations, relations, belonging to secretive lodges & branches, being from a specific city, and when recommended by some influential VIPS.

The caste systems, within academic circles, are immensely unjust & highly destructive. Many incompetent persons have reached posts that they do not deserve and such persons will act in wrong ways to keep their positions. The honest hard working academics are isolated , bullied, defamed and even persecuted in academic caste systems. In my opinion, applying a caste system is a sure way for decline & even downfall in academia.

Dear All,

Down-voters have improved their usual valuable activity in this thread.

I am proud to have been down-voted. This means that I have my own independent opinion and I do not allow to be intimidated. Many thanks for the much honest solidarity.

Dear All,

I agree with Manuel and Artur. In addition, scientific caste systems attained their highest operating state in countries with democracy deficit that are the incubators of corruption.

Sudeep Limaye

Am from India. So my answer would be from Indian perspective.

My submission is,

As it is cast system exist in society. We divide ourselves in to groups and sub groups even in a social / informal settings.

It exist in India as a whole and obviously it exist in academics also in India.

On a personal level the origin of the system was supposedly the division of labor concept. With specialisation in to specified domain. which was based on a logic.

Some where during the years/centuries it got distorted to caste system based on birth. which was not based on logic.

One more such distortion has been the reservation system of not judging students / workers on the basis of merit but on policy of reservation. The logic behind the policy is welfare of the underprivileged but the implementation is creating a reverse caste system.

The reservation policy has become basis for caste system. A new caste system.

Dear RG discussants,

Thanks dear @Sudeep for your clever distinction. I agree that the reservation policy based on lineage and on birth is misleading and brings to mismanagement of all the research system.

I do not entirely agree with dear @ András' statement according to whom “scientific caste systems attained their highest operating state in countries with democracy deficit that are the incubators of corruption”. As @ Ljubomir pointed out Italian newspapers are full of articles about the system of corruption in Italy also in the academy. But it may be because our anchor men are very active and sensationalist.

I think that the caste system is diffused in different measures in all the universities and research centers. It is a mentality: the cooptation of scientific sons for example does not always reward merit compared to values of other scholars' pupils.

Very kind regards

Ting Fa Marg

Dear Ting,

I read with pleasure that you do not agree with me but I need some arguments. From what you indicated one can deduce that democratic conditions must have no impact on the operation of academia. The data Ljubomir presented on Italian corruption do not contain a comparison with other countries. It is possible that in developed democracies there is corruption but despite this, these countries have a continuous progression and no researchers want to come to despotic states. Please, have a look at the world press. Certainly I can accept that everybody knows and suffers of his/her own troubles.

Dr. Arjun Yallappa Pangannavar

Dear @Andras, dear friends, you may find the countries where caste system exist, link follows. Very good discussion is there, as well as many resources.

http://www.quora.com/Which-countries-other-than-India-have-caste-based-reservation-systems

Miranda Yeoh

Dear Marg and all, I believe that there are very few places where there is thorough justice and fairness for everyone in the community or country. And like Andras, I observe that the truly democratic countries seem to have less corruption. It's probably due to freedom of the press and courage of individuals who are able to exercise freedom of speech. In some places, no one dares to say anything, and prefer to leave than to suffer the prevailing conditions.

Concerning my Indian friends, I salute those who have become global citizens, who left home in order to seek a better life and to carve a fortune for themselves, that it's now said that the 'contribution of (global) Indians exceed the contribution of India to science'. See the following related question and some of our answers. Our human conscience will always seek justice, whether we are from Europe, Asia or any other continent. CASTE SYSTEM DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE TO SUSTAINABLE PROGRESS IN SCIENCE OR ANY OTHER FIELD.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Do_you_think_that_the_division_of_labour_class_is_good_for_human_society/1

Ting Fa M. There is no such casteism in research-world, if anybody does/thinks so it is his/her ignorance of knowledge.

Ierardi Enzo

dear Marg, in Italy this system does exist! The phenomenon "parentopoli" has been largely dealt with by all the media. I would be happy to hear from participants in the forum whether the problem is also present in their countries. "Parentopoli" is a system that allows to pass a place of power from father to son by-passing the law. Thank you in advance for your answers..

Dr. Arjun Yallappa Pangannavar

In India, the caste represents family lineage which was created by the Emporer Manu, for smooth carrying of the work assigned but unfortunately, during course of time, it became curse to Indian community. The Varna-System is not rigid system: one from any caste may become Brahman by achieving 'Brahm-Gyan' but it had been being misinterpreted by wrong people. Now the Constitution of India prohibited untouchability-practice in any form. However, there are narrow-minded people in Indian corporate-world, education-world, socio, economic, science, etc organization world who are practising casteism in indirect form. It is the people who have still control over money and power, from so called upper-caste, are practising in India. I think it is sufficient answer to all your four questions. It is the mischief still being played by the uncivilized-society groups.

Dr. Arjun Yallappa Pangannavar

Dear RG Fellows,

I am very grateful to you all for creating a map of caste system over the world for the scientific academy.

Dear @Arjun, thank you so much for your answer to my four questions which is highly lightening, but I do not understand you first sentence “There is no such casteism in research-world, if anybody does/thinks so it is his/her ignorance of knowledge.” If in all systems, including the one in which the castes were abolished such as the Indian, there are castes, is it possible that in the research world they do not exist in some country?

I agree totally with dear @Enzo about our system of “Parentopoli”, Italian recent word that means the city (Polis) of parents and relatives (Parenti). Only one specification, it may happen according to a law, not necessary in spite of the law, just as in the USA a president may be the son (or wife or brother) of a president.

Have a very good evening

Ting Fa Marg

Ierardi Enzo

Dear Marg, the world is a village, the old saying goes. And another says, the law applies to the enemies and is interpreted for friends. So "according" can sometimes be "in spite of" and vice versa.

Ting Fa, the research is open to all, it is narrow-thinking minded persons think that research for specific category/class/people. This is the implication of my first sentence.

Hazim Hashim Tahir

Dear Colleagues,

Good Day,

"Ideas are fatal to caste."

------ E. M. Forster

Dear @Marg, your question is at the attached blog, made by @ Rohit.M.Parikh.

You are also at Linkedin dear @Marg.

http://community.omtimes.com/profiles/blogs/does-a-caste-system-exist-also-in-scientific-academy

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/does-caste-system-exist-also-scientific-academy-rohit-parikh

Battle against caste system goes global!

"While a large section of middle-class India remains oblivious to caste-based discrimination, the battle against untouchability has drawn a motley crew of supporters from around the world — African America lawyers, Russian models and the 'untouchables' of Japan's caste system.

Kevin Brown, a faculty at Indiana University's Maurer School of Law, has connected African-American intellectuals with India's dalit intellectuals. "We want to share our experience of overcoming racism in America with Dalits in India. We want to help build a culture of resistance to the caste system," says Brown, who first visited India on a Fulbright scholarship, where he grew friendly with S Japhet, the sole Dalit faculty member of a law college in Bangalore. "I had long conversations with him, both on the African American struggle and the Dalit struggle," he adds. Brown has had several interactions with influential members of India's Dalit community, including Chandra Bhan Prasad, a proponent of Dalit capitalism and mentor for the Dalit India Chamber of Commerce and Industry. "I spoke to him a great deal about the importance of Dalits setting up businesses. One of the things that helped African-Americans was that they began setting up businesses in the country," says Brown..."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Battle-against-caste-system-goes-global/articleshow/45517174.cms