Very often individuals who have achieved very good results in science were obstructed in the choice of their occupations or promotion, unless they were a member of the ruling party. This often happened in communist regimes and even afterwards in the so-called early democracies. Are these injustices corrected and these people rehabilitated, even posthumously? Do we still have such bad practices to prominent members of the scientific and educational communities around the world? What are your own experiences and do you have any information about such cases? Also, many people seem to be dissidents and emigrants in such situations.
Some people suffer from politics (e.g. if you are an economist and join a party, you'll have to start following the party's instuctions what you should say e.g. about taxes, minimum wages etc. and thus you can't always say what you really think; I've seen some colleagues suffer from that, and I've never had any wish to join any parties myself) but some also suffer from 'politics' in their faculties/universities (e.g. who is/is not a friend of a decision-maker...).
@Cyril, I hope it will not happend this time! It is far away of us! :)
Some people suffer from politics (e.g. if you are an economist and join a party, you'll have to start following the party's instuctions what you should say e.g. about taxes, minimum wages etc. and thus you can't always say what you really think; I've seen some colleagues suffer from that, and I've never had any wish to join any parties myself) but some also suffer from 'politics' in their faculties/universities (e.g. who is/is not a friend of a decision-maker...).
There was several important law changes in Poland since 2011:
1) new requirements for PhD, DSc and full professor - some requirements are higher now, some not, generally procedures may be shorter, but you may more pay for it, if your employee does not agree to pay,
2) new requirements for competition for governmental research grants - it may be easier to be young scientists, but not if you are more than 5 years after PhD and work out of university,
3) higher income for university staff, but e.g. in IT or medicine still much lower than commercial.
Thus influence of regulations on individual career may be really huge, but it depends e.g. on degree and age of the particular scientist. Those who achieve DSc or full prof before aforementioned changes are happy.
Ljubomir, just another question... I have seen a new intriguing topic (below your question) pending review... what is the connection between it and the question?
I was born in Germany during world war II. My education and my studies were later in the new german Bundesrepublik. There were no restrictions either in school nor in university. The really working and influencing background for me and my social surroundings was the historical conscience and the will, never to commit and repeat the horrible faults of the past.
@Cyril, there is no connection. This topic was offered automatically from the topic list when I was tagging the question!
From Nietzsche;
“ Going up mountain use your own legs only, or else just at your height you will be stumbling ”
In my research I am out of politics.
In science, as in other areas, there are good and bad examples.
Bad example: level of school education continues to fall (Is this the politics?).
The best example: Being apolitical Grigori Yakovlevich Perelman received outstanding results in mathematics proving the Poincaré conjecture (Breakthrough of the Year -2006). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman
Dear Professor Jacic,
As far as I am concerned, politics has never effected me in career advancement. However, I have seen how political leaders try to influence such matters. I thought, this happens in India only! Now it seems, this kind of things happen in other countries too! I am not just surprised to know this; I am simply astonished.
Dear all,
this is a very interesting question, indeed.
I personally grew up and studied in the German Democratic Republic (in East Germany), and I saw it declining. After reunification, I went to the Western Part of Germany. I met many friends there, people were very open-minded and open to discussion about almost everything. I thank them all. I was not able to see any political influence at that time (1991-1993).
What I could not see was the processes that were performed at this time in East Germany. I think what happend there was not always correct, but I cannot give you reliable information.
Anyway, what I saw after coming back to the East Part seemed a little bit confusing to me. At this time, most of the "old guys" were still there, but their way of speaking changed by 180 degrees. You must understand that I am an engineer and therefore not so close to the system as - for example - people in economy or philosophy.
I decided not to ask about the past and to evaluate the persons I got confronted with only about their scientific reputation. For me, personally, it worked pretty well.
You see, I became a Professor in 1994. This is twenty years ago. So, I can see some long-term trends now. And this makes me very unhappy. I saw the "old" Federal Republic of Germany during the years 1991-1993, but what I see now is an increasing interaction of politics and "so-called science".
What I found today in my mailbox was the latest issue of the magazine "Forschung und Lehre" (this a monthly publication of the "Deutscher Hochschulverband" - the organization of German University Professors (please know that there a different institutions in Germany that call themselves "Universities" in English but without having the status of a REAL University).
I got frustrated after reading it for 30 minutes. The influence of politicions to research and teaching has reached a degree that is absolutely unacceptable.
If i think back to past, the whole thing started with the Social Democrats with a lady called Bulmahn. She was the minister for science and education. She was absolutely unqualified, but in the party that gained control. Parties changed, but their restrictive policy of control and of distrust agins science remained. Anette Schawan (Christian Democrats) , the last minister had to retreat due to a case of plagiarism in her Doctoral Thesis.
Use your own brain.....
Best regards, Hans-Michael.
Politics always plays a bigger role than any person cares to admit. It is one of those areas that cannot be acknowledge directly, but implicitly dealt with.
Politics affects us all, whether we are interested or disinterested in it. It often dictates economy rather than the other way around (everywhere in the world) but people can't see it.
In the post-communist world - which I consider to be still very communist - politics does affect research and one can easily recognize the patterns - e.g. the scared look on the face of many professors and other staff who are too worried to openly discuss something (no matter with what audience - a colleague or a student), paranoid whether they are going to be reported to someone else, the way they are hired, the way they behave and communicate (tired of living) and the way they teach, etc.
I think it affects all areas of research but mostly, logically, journalism, sociology and political science because those who are in power (incl. businesses) are being served by these ''professional'' researchers. I am not saying that all researchers in the latter fields are serving someone but the trends are most visible there. The fact that there are agents in fields such as math, engineering, painting and music is quite telling, indicative of the overall situation and the future...
Namely because journalism is one of the sensitive fields, and because people are being scared that a hidden agent or a higher authority (understand a communist) is always watching them, they are not likely to talk about their negative experience with political discontent. Fear is still very present and visible in all fields and universities.
@Hans-Michael, I will repeat in Your words:" The influence of politicians to research and teaching has reached a degree that is absolutely unacceptable. " AGREE!
@Glenn, my father was doctor/radiologist and I recognize his words in Your response! Thanks!
Mr. Jacic, again very intriguing question of your site.
The politics, independently of the regime used the tools of the policy power for affect (control) over the academic communities. Because of: 1. From the itelligence they may found mainly strong politcy opponents. 2. The higher education system has significant affect onver the population. 3. Community of students for them is an electorate, which ensure the dissemination of their power within the frame of more than one mandate.
In all the political systems have 'victims' among the academics have, exactly because most of the academics have understanding for freedom in the science and education, and whant to 'save' and 'prevent' the individuality, and identity of the academic and student's comunities, from ideological interference from the site of the pollitical elite.
I am surprised, why you visualized only ex-socialist countries.
An example, for me personaly very interesting. The University of Dortmund operates with budget which is between 2.5-10 times lower than the budgets of other Universities here, particularly if we compare only the technical universities. As a number of students (ca 30 000), number of profs, number of non-academic staff, including years of establishment (60's last century) however TU Dortmund is comparable to many other not only technical Universities. Particularly as scientific achievements and contributions, they are also very strong. Including publications, patents, excellence Initiatives, projec initiatives, discoveries all highly competitive results in areas such as engineering, IT technologies, physics, chemistry, medicine, pharmacy, and more. Therefore strong contribution to the economy of Germany also has. But the budget is 2.5-10 times lower. The budget here is determined more than 80 % by the Federal government (rest by the State). More than 4 years I try to understand this dissonance and absence of any logic and scheme for funding (the University is public).
I check an available statistic about the political orientation of the population of Dortmund. Do you know what is the result!?. From 1945-2013 the vote of biggest part of Dortmund's citizens is for SPD ('red' more in links). It has only one exception (vote ca. 1949). The political party with the highest influence over the population is CDU ('black'). Even they received recently subsequent mandats. The Dortmund is exception in Germany (actually whole city and the region, which is significantly large), where most of the citizens have political sympathy (and/or membership) towards SPD.
And because of have not reason for such drastic reduction of the budget, such for example low number of students, strongly increased number of the staff (academic oannd/or non-academic), low-number or low-impact of the scientific initiatives, my hypothesis is namelly that the reason is political dissonance with the leading party. Furthermore I have other observations, but they are also indirect. Otherwise it has not any other explanation why this University is treated so negatively. Please take into account that my career is joined with this University from 2006 under mainly my project initiatives, which were/are sponsored by independent funding organizations. Therefore my position does not supported from the budget.
May be this is not a 'bad practice'. Most probably exsists exchange of knowledge about the tools of the political power between the 'communistic' and 'democratic' party leaders still of the times of the 'cool-war'. Even may be not only...Hypotheses only. But the statistics for Dortmund and the budget of the UNiversity are true ones.
@Bojidarka, thanks for response. I did not ,as You say, visualized only ex-socialist countries. No, but I am very familiar with such practice , and I have asked for both different experience and similar examples of polical influence!
"Fear and stress cause slavery". Honesty is becoming the most negative trait. If you can't keep silence (adopt!), you will frame your nearest and dearest. You turn out to be lined with flags, like a wolf- in career, progress, salary. Your success is ignored, your conceptions are stolen by "the chosen". Vertical is a very comfortable tool for nepotism, favoritism, corruption.
This question is very important
Generally, politics is a process by which groups of people make collective decision. Education is the process by which society deliberately transmits its accumulated knowledge, skills and values from one generation to another. I personally studied in the Tunisia Republic (in the middle of Tunisia, the spark of revolution). In my universal study I met a good friends, they are not open to discussion about any thing related to politics. The students were in the era of late dictator avoid to discuss any subject related to the policy in order to avoid expulsion from the college because the spies were omnipresent. The political influence are very remarked at that time (1997-2012).
I think what happened there was not always correct, but I cannot give you reliable information.
After the Tunisian Revolution, Policy has become the most prominent subject of debate among some professors and students. But sometimes become exaggerated and exceeded the limits. I think what happened after revolution is good, but should be accompanied by some permissions and ethics.
This question is very sensitive. In my country, civil servants like me are required to support the govt of the day. Is this a requirement in your country? So, do we all have the same freedom, and as much freedom as we would wish? Some people got into trouble for certain posts on FB. Now, I don't want any trouble for us :)
Dear Miranda
Yes question is sensitive, but I think that it true that there is a factor of politics. But its probabilties are different or satiation dependent.
Here is the list my friend Ljubomir:
1)Nepotism, the son or daugther of a professor is 'more equal' than us who have not this qualification
2)Dominant political theory (not party, theory), since 1974 in Greece if you were not 'left' (in mind, not in your wallet of course), all 'doors' were closed
3)Origin of your homeland: some prefectures are 'more equal' than others in advanced offices occupation
Of course there are minor factors, but the above three are dominant requirements for succeed in Greece last years. Now, due to the recent collapse, we hope to overcome them.
The meaning of policy is very broad and is related to what concerns the public space, so you can not live without dealing with social policy. Every institution must have policy, because it is through it that will achieve to the intended purpose. So we must adapt to it or influence it because it exists to reconcile interests. .
Dear Ljubomir, very interesting question; yes politics affects one’s career and research. In my country higher education and research is ruled and controlled by the same party for many decades. Decision making posts are allowed to people with connivance with the party and its affiliates ‘not necessary from the more skilled people’. As this party was the single party before the little bit opening to democracy (not yet a real democracy) with its demagogy, friendships and corruption basis, it continues its functioning on the same scheme till nowadays. So the career advancement is more linked to our support degree to this party or its affiliates or to our degree of relationships with some influential families ‘in the real term’ from political, economical, administrative or religious powerships. These families ‘as a dynasty’ seem to be the branches of the decision making political tree in my country.
However from my personal experience, I’m out of politics ‘I do not support any party’ and I suffered from career advancement and research practice. Lot of my colleagues, with strong administrative or political relationships, were more happy. But I observed that at each important election (or a year before it) ‘as presidency for example’, my research work become interesting to some hidden decision makers to the limit that my bureau could be visited by night or during my absence (and computers and documentations could be robed). Till now I couldn’t make the form of relationship with my work and presidency election!!! Still a strange story!!!!! But now I’m more marginalized since I posed the question ’because the visiting of my bureau becomes recurrent’ to my chiefs, the ministry, and to all the decision making tree from its top…..
The interesting answer of Hans-Michael shows clearly the recent development in germany. So I agree completely with his description. But the influence of politics is still restricted to the financial part and off course staff planning. In germany you still won´t find any influence or censorship on contents of teaching and research. I hope this will not change to fast!
The human nature is "political". Bias and nepotism are as human as breathing. I adopted the policy, "don't complain, overcome". Easier said than done. I empathize! I practice impartiality to the best of my ability. Starting with my kids.
Free thought and discourse are key to peace!
Mr. Christopoulos, like Mr. Jacic visualized only east-Europe. The points 1-3 are fully valid even in old west-democracies like Germany is one example. In additionton to points 1-3, have points for employers at Unis under:
4. 'Halh-homeland origin' (other half is Country out of EU, mainly Turkey, and Ukraine); and
5. 'Foreign affair policy' (affecting mainly peoples from Russian, Ukraine, India, Afrika, China).
In the field of chemsitry and physics particularly, employers under 4. and 5. are significantly distributed. The unemployment is close to 0%.
A lot of them (I personaly know peoples) received even invitations for employment, without any own research initiatives. Even have cases (peoples from Afrika) for which the German government (for example throut DAAD) covers their education (at PhD), and afterwards emplyment status at Unis of almost 100 % of the cases. They just take transport from one Uni to another one.
Some of these peoples even have not any knowledge on German, negligible knowledge on English. Good French have only peoples couming from Countries, which were ex France's Colonies.
As scientific and accademic contributions, own independent project and/or educational activities such 'equal' candidates for employment in EU, have qualification far-, far-less than this of academics for among the poor EU-east-Countries. I know a drastic case for 'scientist' of India, which occupied position here at Uni for 6 years under two time higher financial benefits for the average one for this Federal State as author of only 38 publs, without any project activity (on 52 years). Active, negligible for the fields of natural science. Even have PhD Students with higher activity. But...by invitation.
For all other 'equal' EU citizens (west or east) remains: A. indefinite as duration of time 'unemployment', which is covers by the present an outstanging contributions throuth already granted projects; B. application with new ideas for research and projects to some of the public and private Institutions (This possibility exsist here definitively); C. application for online announced vacancies (They just do not received invitations), when however have available. The common policy don't stimulate Higher Education generally. If these 'equal EU candidates' have chance to apply for such position and have no any competition of so-called 'candidates' under points 3-5. Than these academics and researchers are lucky to work under excellent employment conditions which actually have here (such as equiepment in our areas), and highest financial benefits for academics and researchers for within the frame of whole Europe.
For citizens (academics or researchers) from east-Europe particularly have also additional possibility 'D.' employment in the country of origin under 'not so good'-to-'bad' employment conditions such as equiepment and/or financial benefits, preventing achievement of string competitive results in the science and time-to time invitations as project partners to some of the professors here, but under fully uncompetitive financial conditions and benefits. The common practive showed exactly this.
Employers at Unis (I viasualized my area) here from EU (west or east) countries are scarce represented. Neverheless that biggest part of European researchers and academics provide significantly competence and professionalsm.
Just the geographic regions their countries of origin are not those under point 5.
Soon employment will see no boundary or border. The internet is slowly dissolving these demarkations and shrinking the world further. We need to be educated to compete. All the "quotas" & "set asides" are a consequece of past ills. I saw it 35 years ago in India to an "extreme' extent and virtually "walked away" from it. Ended up in the US. Best thing to happen for me and my family. My first "lemon to lemonade" story.
I see a positive impact with education for the immigrants. That is the only leverage society has to reach intellect. WIN-WIN! I suggest more introspection.
Change "victim" mentality to "victor" mentality. One at a time! Take a stand! Attitude is altitude. Besides, it is the best anesthetic for most bruised egos.
@Vasile, agree! Such person obviously does not possess research skills! :)
@ Hanno,
my apologies, I must disappoint you in your view that influence of politicians is restricted to money only and not to research and teaching. You probably know that Schawan (the former minister of Science and research who had to retreat due to plagiarism) is now a member of the scientific coucil of the Ludwig Maximilian's University in Munic. In this position, she decides about future strategies of research and teaching of this university. Disgusting! There is also the requirement that each course of study must be evaluated each third year by a group of so-called "experts" that are nominated by questionable agencies that earn money for that. I have suffered from this process, and you can be sure that they tell you what you are required to teach although they have limited or even no idea. This is a sincere restriction of the freedom of research and teaching that is guaranteed in the constitution (Grundgesetz) of Germany.
With best regards, Hans-Michael.
@Hans-Michael: I know the Schawan and similar debacels. I never experienced personally any restriction or political influence ( except money from DFG or similar institutions). So I´m looking forward to a free scientific world in Germany. There are some real problems with staff, competence of lecturers ( young lehrbeauftragte with minimal salery and without chances). I like the discussion. Regards Hanno
Mr. Hanisch, very valuable comment of your site. You are answering of a question, which I arised for myself comparing the rank of Unis in Bavaria. LMU, which is older than TUM, have more than 20 000 students over (There are educated ca 50 000 students), have 2 times more scientific contributions, operate however with half of the budget of TUM. Nevertheless that both the bidgets generally are small (ca. 10 times small than those of US Unis and UK). Looking the funding policy, I can imagine the strategy...to transform all Unis into gymnasiums.
It sound good that have laws ensuring control of the quality of study. The problems however come really from the quality and the level of competence of so-called "experts". Furthermore how to guarantee generally their "objectivity" in the evaluation process. Especially in so competitive areas such as higher education, and open market. It is very difficult to ensure "ojectivity" both from national and/or international "experts". Such problem exsists also for reviewering process of research projects. How to guarantee quality, objectivity, detachment of reviewers!?
The question is really interesting and in some countries the impact of politics is determinant. I am going to provide my view about the present situation in Spain:
1. Our government has employed austerity policies to fight the global crisis, closed research institutes in the whole country, dismantled the post-doc stabilization program, tried to collapse public universities, among other "solutions".
2. Such strategies are forcing the best prepared generation of profesionals and scientists in Spain to emigrate to countries, in which research and development are considered the best sectors to invest for building a better future.
3. I cannot think of any colleagues now emigrating to more advanced countries, who will return back to Spain in the following decades, so the advances achieved in research and development in the 80s and 90s, after a 40-year dictatorship, will be difficult to maintain.
I just found this question accidentally, but wanted to give my impression. With no academic parents I grew up in Germany (at that time West-Germany, i.e. a free country with theoretically equal chances in school and universites. Although I was among the very best, I had to learn there usually is no way to ever compete with professors kids to become professor in Germany. I have to admit I may not have been opportunistic enough to use all the chances for a professorship in fields I was absolutely not interested at all. Please, do not understand me wrong; I know it must be even harder for those who just follow their fathers carreer as a professor and then have to face the fact they never could live their own lives. I am still happy with my pionierung achievements and making many others with my ideas and results a professor.
Mr. Eibl, the choice "not to follow" the career of the parents is among the best one for professional realization. Because of, when the opposite happen, all the life the "children" are under the "shadow" of the achievements of their parents. Even in the cases when they have strong persinal realization and contribution, the emphasize of their own impact is very difficult in the academic communities. Especially when they have common contributions, this usually resulted to damages of the careers of the "childrens". Same is valid when brothers and sisters choosen same field of professional realization. Even to have their own individual achievements, career advancement in academic hierarchy, and their reputation is prejudiced much or less in a negative aspect of this/those of one of the brothren and/or the sisters.
I personally know lot academics and researchers from chemistry, physics and juridical sciences. Those in the field of chemistry have even stronger contributions from those of their papernts and/or brothers (sisters) in the field of science (For physics and juridical science I just cannot comments). But their attainments, their scientific profiles and reputations are strongly dispersed and disguised.
Well... my belief if you are a smart and hard worker and genuine in what you do - you do not think of POLITICS - as no one can hide the sun! so work smart and hard, be genuine and do not worry about politics.
Regards
Mrs Issa, I really appreciate your remarkable sense of humor! Thank you for making me feel better... (I will send you my IBAN to do a deposit, since with only good words and encourage I cannot pay my bills!)
Although is evident that politics have a serious influence on the carrier of a scientist, a various constellation of "why"-s and "how"-s are related to this question.
To start from the beginnings, we must admit that humans evolved in hordes, which made possible the division of labour. To lead such a horde, two groups of leaders evolved:
- shrewd and strong people with good interpersonal communication skills became politicians (lately strength could be superseded by shrewdness)
- smart people who could understand the trends of the natural habitat and elaborate strategies for survival and development of the horde – they became scientists.
As the later group did not excelled in interpersonal communication, politicians could benefit after the good choices made by scientists – but it was easy for them to find an escape-goat if a strategy failed. A lot of wisemen (wizards) were slain after a long drought or flood in prehistoric times – nowadays this is resolved elegantly by budget cuts.
So, the problem is rooted in my oppinion in the interpersonal communication skills of scientists. Because people preserved very much of the original horde-mentality, especially in crisis situations. (That is why some politicians are generating perpetual crisis situations). This horde-mentality expose people to be abused by politicians following short-term benefits: corruption, nepotism is originating in this short-sighted strategy, juggling between selfishness and a masquerade of populism.
The solution would be related to a careful and responsible analysis of the quality of information released in public domain. Of course, this proposal could be considered utopistic. As it was considered in the StoneAge to build the Kheops Pyramid or by Newton's contemporaries to visit the Moon.
It may seem utopistic – but is not impossible.
"good words and encourage" works better to "pay the bills" (materialism) than the alternative of "kvetching" and "negativism". I hope you are not implying that "good science" should "balance the budget" and actually "pay bills" (seek funding, promoters, protagonists). Pun intended. That would be "Utopian" wouldn't it? Lol!
BTW it appears that Tesla had a similar challenge. He lacked "sales skills". He wasn't a "politician".
And another remark: Thinking positively without moving your hands does not also pay your bills!
("Συν Αθηνά και χείρα κίνει", "Syn Athena kai chira kini", "Along with Athena, move also your hand" — cf. the English "God helps those who help themselves.", see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_phrases )
Sometimes, Christmas celebration was forbiden by official politics! Thanks God, now it is a National Holiday!
Dear friends, we celebrate Christmas in Serbia, as well as many of the Eastern Orthodox Church, according to the Julian calendar. Today is Christmas Eve! Merry Christmas to all who celebrate! I wish you all the best!
Dear Ljubomir Jacic ( my keyboard does not allow accent the letter " c " , so excuse me incorrect spelling ). Political regimes of exception are always problematic because chances are politically chosen . The Brazil lived a lot of it during the 20 years of military period (1964-1985 ) . But even in democratic regimes injustice can happen ( and happen ) . In one way or another is always political ( the economy is also political , let us not forget that) that affects our lives . Bertolt Brecht has a poem that speaks it very well and they taste great .
Very socially unequal countries like Brazil 's economic policy always affects access to educational and cultural goods which interferes with the history and social journey of people in a very strong way. But , I must emphasize , the economy is also political . So one need not live in exception to the policy affect our lives and our careers regimes .
Many researches are funded from private interests ( businesses, corporations , etc. . ) And the idea of someone just search what you want or what interests you can be away for many.
The economic ( political ) interests have increasingly guided our research and scientific work .
Even as the Nobel science prizes are guided by political issues .
Think of different ways that we all live in some degree or moment of our lives , are more democratic or less democratic regimes .
See you later ,
S.
Merry Christmas! Note, my profile photo remains from around December 24th through at least January 7th. For those who may not be familiar, it is Orthodox Christmas (January 6-7th) for Copts, Russians, Greeks and others of the Orthodoxy. Merry Christmas! Shalom aley chime (peace be with you), as Jesus the Jew would have greeted and bid farwell to his followers and detractors alike in Hebrew or Aramaic.
Andras, I think what you suggest is very valid. We must recognise the evolutionary background to human behaviour. Therefore politics will always exist; it is present at all levels from office politics to national and international levels. It has both good and bad effects. I have certainly experienced significant effects on my scientific career clearly due to local political agendas.. I also think it is often difficult for more technically minded scientists to be as skilled or indeed interested in the political aspects of life. However, it is probably wise to try to develop these skills, not so much for the sake of progressing up the ladder (although all hard workers deserve some reward for effort) because that is not what really should be of greatest value to a true scientist, but rather to try to ensure that the work you believe in is able to be disseminated and ultimately provide benefit to society.
I have just read this interesting paper that describes how politicians use researchers in evidence-based policymaking- it gives some hope that there are moves to improve the engagement of politicians with researchers to benefit policy. There are still risks that the relationships can be mis-used, but better collaboration between (many) researchers and politicians improves scientific thinking in societies decision-making hubs.
Haynes, Abby S., et al. "Galvanizers, guides, champions, and shields: the many ways that policymakers use public health researchers." Milbank Quarterly 89.4 (2011): 564-598.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250634/
Sérgio! Cut/paste in RG Ljubomir Jacić.
Thanks for reminding me Ljubomir!
Срећан Божић!
عيد ميلاد سعيد!
Kullu sana wento tayyabeen!
Καλά Χριστούγεννα!
С Рождеством Христовым!
Buon Natale!
圣诞快乐！
No! No! I'm not from the town of Babel but Google! Phonetics and voice included!http://translate.google.com/#lt/zh-CN/Merry%20Christmas!
If politics runs economics and all its related branches as scientific research for industrial or academic purpose, this implies that the successful politician is who has obtained the max of supports from influential economical and financial spheres, as well as sustain and helps from regional and/or international organizations and/or governments. In that conjunction researchers are may be naive people as smart ones are those who manipulate their works or findings for personal or corporate power ship benefits. So may be a scheme or strategy (perhaps at international level) must be elaborated against any usage or attempt of usage of science for political purpose. Or may be politics must be withdrawn as it becomes corporation of specific private interests. Public affairs could be managed and run ‘without any political need’ by skilled people under the control of independent jurisdictions (just a though)!!
Fairouz! Your "thought" is euphemistically termed as technocracy. It is only a potential alternative to autocracy. It would just be another form of tyranny absent politics or public approval/acquiescence. Even though several technocrats rose to power many a times in the Free World, they've generally done so through "politics" (Winning Friends & Influencing People"). Politics is a "public" event in the Free World.
"The only means of surviving for a human being, who is trying to think (in some countries) is to be in opposition to every authority". A lack of money and profitable connections doesn't mean a lack of ability to thinking and passion for knowledge and science.
Yes Ravi i just have this thought may be it is not realistic nowadays, but may be it could be improved and be pragmatic. Well for example in a department x (example agriculture or telecom or education ..;etc..), skilled, experts and scientists people could make national, regional or a district level plans/strategies proposals for long, middle or near terms , discussed, revised and approved by their pairs, and submitted to people voting 'of the district, region or at national level'. When the chosen plan is adopted, it could be processed by the administrative and technical fields, under control of a specialized jurisdiction which controls its execution and its ethics with continuous reports, all under the control of a Parliament like civil organizations scheme. This could looks more democratic and more intelligent for population's benefits. May be it could replace the political corrupted scheme.
If Governent is involved in such activities and it is not a private enterprise then eventually the the inefficiency of the "burocracy" will stifle progress. Success comes from private individuals motivated to accomplish, forming teams of motivated entitiies. My bias is towards encouraging private initiatives not public. My opinion.
Ravi, but many governments into democracies or into autocracies are implicated into corruption and robbery, so this running scheme of public, private and national affairs (may be also international ones) is no more useful for population needs and also for private motivations success. The only success is a fashion like scheme for the more influential ones 'financially and politically speaking'. My thoughts were not for a bureaucracy scheme that I'm against, but for a better and smart regulation of people needs out of politics which couldn't and do not give any added value, as politicians themselves need experts into each field , however they could manage the skills they ask for with their own vision or ego or corporation benefits!!!
Sure that private initiatives is essential into any economy and industry, but the private corporations must also work for general benefit purpose not only their private success unless they could collapse too.
Yes you are right @Ravi. Private enterprises are based on people's genius. But we have observed that many of them from the successful ones were closed, pushing people to jobless and misery.The responsibility of this collapse is political one. If people are voting for persons who finally arrive with incompetent and non ethical teams, so how is becoming the role of the vote for people's happiness; It's a real paradox !! My though is based on pragmatic projects, ideas and strategies out of any ideology or political financial and influencing interests. If politicians are exploiting the ideas of others, so why not the people who handle these ideas do not do it by themselves? for example the running of a department x is based on experts and scientists in the related field, these people are custom to do their jobs naturally without any support from politicians, these skilled people are custom to elaborate plans and ideas for the related field with collaboration of enterprises private and public, independent researchers and researchers from private and public labs...etc..; so the proposals from ideas and projects (of course evaluated and reviewed) could be more understood by population which could choose the more suitable for her. At this stage people are being voting for projects and not for persons. The persons responsible of the project will continue their work naturally, may be the more successful of them could be awarded. Perhaps some inner interests could obstruct or create any confusing plans, this will be the role of jurisdictions. Anyway private 'or public' enterprises continue their existence and growing up following market needs and rules out of any political ideology or political help. I think that lot of money 'from public treasury' could be saved from the political posts salaries that are being non useful from societies and nations development.
This idea could be improved ........ may be to be continue......just a thought
Happiness cannot be voted in. It must be pursued. In the free world, election and voting are, to "even the playing field". In many parts of the world the word "Democracy" has been "bastardized". Most folks think that Democracy has to do with "Majority Rule" and completely overlook the the quintessential component of "Minority Protection". Let us consider the difference between Pakistani & Indian versions, for instance. India, a secular democracy, allows "Shariya" marriage law (including an exception for polygamy) for the Muslims only (I think). This is an example of "extreme" protection/accommodation for the "minority". Pakistan on the other hand not only acknowledges Islam as the official religion but imposed the death penalty on the minority for theological disagreement (affectionately termed as Blasphemy or Heresy). In fact in capital murder cases if the perpetrator is Kefir and the victim Muslim then "Death Penalty" applies while not so in the reverse scenario. That democracy includes Shias as Kefirs and persecutes them along with the minority Hindus, Christians and Sikhs in Pakistan. What is interesting is we, the US, support these fellows. I'll be glad to stand corrected for any of the above assertions that turn out to be inaccurate.
Unfortunately, in the Arab world, this notion is carried out to a greater degree. There are virtually no real secular democracies between Israel and India on the world map yet. They are all some adulterated forms of democracy. Democracy is not something that can be custom ordered over the Internet through Face Book, as is obvious with such experiments in Egypt. In Egypt, the democratically elected government of the "Brotherhood" turned out to be "night-mare" to the minority in the electorate. These folks wanted to impose their version of Islam on all subjects of Egypt by mandate. An experiment tried unsuccessfully in many parts of the world for centuries by both Islamists and Christians throughout our history.
The point behind this diatribe is that voting and democratic methods are not the panacea to all our challenges. In fact such practices beyond the Government could lead to "dead lock" and "impasse" in many if not most instances. It is good, ethical and magnanimous individuals (leaders) who look beyond their own personal interests that really make the difference in such systems. An educated & open-minded electorate is the ultimate solution to most of your challenges, in my humble opinion.
The idea 'just a simple thought' which you given me the opportunity to develop here dear Ravi is surely devoted for educated society. Problems from ideologies 'political, economical or religious' do not and couldn't happen; people will be involved into the development of their milieus, lives and nations on the basis of the more skilled of them; their differences do not matter, people are being to be respectful and respected since are good educated. So as good educated they surely could better understand their religions and their differences.
The cases that you pointed to are unfortunately opportunities to influential interests and power ships to manage by opposing differences into ill or less educated societies 'diviser pour regner' sounds efficient in this case.
Democracy as majority rule seems to be less effective in many cases. This kind of democracy balancing between two ideological poles seems to be unable to solve societies' problems. Each pole could give only technical forms, which are not shared by all people, so if only a 51% of people seems to be OK or think that they have understood it 'as many could be in oppose of it later', what is the case of the 49% rest (a great part of the population !!!). so the question of governance and democracy scheme remains.!
For the question of religion's impact into ruling and running democracy, i think that religions are not human made ones and are shared by billions of humans, so they shouldn't be used for political influence and power; as they could be subject to understanding or ill understanding or confusing or manipulation by some interests in the purpose of powering others. Religions should be neutral, learned and interpreted by the more skilled people in cooperation. People who assign themselves God servants could fail in their mission, the resulting impact on the society could be disastrous.
Thank you
Dear All,
A case study of how not to be a mosquito control expert
I have worked as an expert on mosquito control for about 10 years and tried to work according to the rules of my scientific and human principles. When doing my last job I had to build a mosquito forecasting network, to inform the control performing enterprises if the number of biting mosquitoes arrived the officially not acceptable level, to attest the implementation of control and if the enterprise used real pesticide (and not water) and at last I had to assess the efficacy of the control because efficacy rates under 70% was not allowed to reimburse. The control was implemented by enterprises and the charges were paid by the municipals and the state. The state offered 50% of the charges and I had to verify that this amount was paid according to the original aim and the control served the good of the local people.
One day I had a phone call and a functionary told me that a mosquito had bitten the wife of a deputy mayor thus I had to order the control of the city (1000 ha). My answer was that I could not do it because the mosquito population was deeply under the limit level and I did not like unnecessary pesticide use. He tried to persuade me but in vain. The next step of the municipality was that they let journalists and reporters loose on me declaring I was a political opponent of the leadership of this city and my intention was to hinder the human service of the municipality. I became a public enemy and all internet and other press releases but also many simple people abused at me for weeks. It was about 8 years ago and since that time the position of expert has been given to another colleague who is not as particular about scientific facts and environmental protection.
Of course this event has not destroyed my career.
@Andras, very instructive story for this thread!
Thank You all for the wonderful greetings and your contributions to this thread!
Yes in both fields. In education, people with personal political contacts excelled while I had to work hard and reach the top and similarly in the profession, they get appointment and increments while I wait for years and years... Sad but true.
@Andras, I think you had been toooo... lucky for not destroyed your career!
Dear Demetris,
I have lost only some money and the environment got too much pirethroids but in vain. Chemical control of adult mosquitoes generally is good for nothing. A better way would be biological control against mosquito larvae.
Dear Henna,
You can be satisfied hard work is a good thing.You must know: All animals are equal but some are more equal than others. This is the basic and man made rule of human life.
You are right Andras. But sometimes you get frustrated when you see such undue advantage being taken by politically networked individuals.
I always knew it was important to create a network of contacts in your own field but now its more important to expand it to political personalities.
Read "How to Stop Worrying and Start Living" by Dale Carnegie. You cannot change that which is not in your control. Just as I cannot alter the inevitability of the "rising sun". It helped me find an extra edge within me. Great stuff! Here's an easy way. You don't even have to read it. Just listen to it. Powerfull to any human with an open-mind! 9+ hours of virtual lobotomy! Make notes. No anesthetic needed. If you are participating in this aimless highly intellectual discussion with no material (monetary) value then you owe it to yourself. This is a totally painless outpatient procedure. FREE!
YOU MUST HAVE FULLY HEARD THIS AT LEAST ONCE TO GAIN THE PRIVILAGE OF DISCUSSING THE MERITS AND DE-MERITS!
Warning! Copious amounts of intestinal fortitude required. Helping make the difference one at a time. Experience & share freely. Knowledge, the more you give the more you'll have!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWJKfEWWOvc
Dear Professor Ljubomir Jacić,
I personally not experienced to that extent but yes, I agree with your point of view of probable chances of such victimization. I witnessed a few such cases.
Good discussion so far
Well Demetris - indeed, hard and smart work would give you the edge - and just do not pay attention to grapevine in the office - I believe your life will be easier and your career will be safer... I do not believe that you need to be politically connected or politically correct towards leaders to be successful.... may be this is what I experience here - the case might be TOTALLY different in other countries and other democracies...
Regards
Dear Andres,
I have some colleagues in Spain but they have not mentioned these restrictions in Spanish higher education. I am going to ask them on particulars at their universities.
Certainly, this is more than unpleasant and can destroy the continuity of research and education at your country.
Mr. Myasnuchenko, whan you understand under 'solid-cincentrated'? -
- 'Stable' as dissemination and goal or 'hard'?
Most significantly the individual in the society that makes the norm!
"As a Man" (or Woman) "Thinketh" by James Allen. Listen & enjoy! You will learn the words to motivate others with your intellect. For those who are limited access to YouTube, please look for this material in any public library. This book is from early 1900's.There is nothing controversial or sacrilegious about the book that I know of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6H0OwnIvs8
Politics always there in academic bodies. An academician must utilize them wisely to be successful.
In my first job as college teacher, I couldn't do it properly. And I had to quit.
People with political support do have an undue advantage. There is no doubt about it. What-more, its politicians who decide on funding of scientific projects.
Very interesting question and an issue in developing countries like Pakistan. I would say YES politics does affect. And Pakistani society can be taken as an example.
The fact is that politics is a mother to someone, while a stepmother to others! No,no,no politics is acceptable, nor in science, neither in education! Agree!?
Dear Professor Ljubomir Jacić
I think that the politics is every where, and specially in between the academicians.
@Mohammad, it varies from country to country, agree! Maybe You have some other experiences? Please share, if any! Thanks!
@Fairouz : "Sure that private initiatives is essential into any economy and industry, but the private corporations must also work for general benefit purpose not only their private success unless they could collapse too."
You mean, some Gov. official(s) should supervise private enterprise and make sure they "work for the general benefit?" ?!?! :-)
"unless they could collapse too." It takes time to really digest the meaning of that, yet this is the greatest advantage of really free enterprise: you cannot cheat all people all the time. One goes down, many other come up.
The problem starts when "free" is not exactly free and not success but rather "men in power" have real power to decide who can go on and if it doesn't work, then we will "help," The great idea here is OPM (other people's money.)
All people in power want more power. In this respect Communist governments had total power on your work and on your life. All governments like power and take your money to take care of "the poor, the elderly and the handicapped," only they seem to need more and more money all the time. Still, in democracies people can protest, replace, etc.
@Ravi, in this context, I think maybe you ended in the worst country in the world, except maybe... all the rest.
If you moved directly from India to USA, you missed some experience and maybe you cannot even appreciate enough what it means to be able to be AT THE SAME TIME a proud Indian and a proud American.
Itzhak! Sorry I haven't been following. I'm sure now how you came to that counter conclusion, " you cannot even appreciate enough what it means to be able to be AT THE SAME TIME a proud Indian and a proud American". Unless you mean the lack of "dual citizenship". I did have to formally relinquish my Indian citizenship to acquire my US Citizenship. I did not like that. I guess there are two sides to each coin. It is interesting to understand my own feelings and capabilities from others' kaleidoscope.
"the worst country in the world, except maybe... all the rest". (I had no clue that was Churchill. Please post a link. How little do I know!). Beyond the pun. Personal freedom is the reason more people are applying for immigration and illegally crossing the border to get to the US. Not sure of the immigration policy of other countries, but which country would allow me (rabble rouser) to immigrate? Israel, India, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, Kuwait, Gaza, Palestine, Syria, EU? What would be the advantage? More freedom, security, peace-of-mind, wealth, religious freedom & tolerance, cultural diversity, separation of religion and governance, autonomous judiciary? We Americans take what we have for granted. Whenever I travel abroad I'm reminded of what we have in the US and am humbled.
So is it, in the case of India as well for centuries. There is no one chasing to run off to the neighboring countries. The flow of immigration is from the destabilized neighbors in to India for shelter and peace. Besides many NRI's (Non Resident Indian) today are finding lucrative compensation for their expertise in India and are returning for the "life style". Just as a matter of fact. Check out cities in India like Bengaluru or Mysuru. Google them, cool info.
The question should be, where do I have the most confidence for my freedom & safety and my family's safety & development? America or "... all the rest"?
Ravi, you are very serious, while I was joking. Your tone and questions show that my words didn’t make the hidden Smiley obvious and/or didn't really make you get my feelings about USA, so I failed.
I had and have no intention to start any dissertation or argument.
I thought it was clear that I was only humbly paraphrasing Churchill ”Democracy is the worst possible regime, except… all the rest.”
Itzhak! Chever! Sorry! I missed the chachma! :-) I'm 2 serious. I recant. I slipped on a nuance of language. With 8 inches of snow and ice here, you can understand. How does your lovely weather look like? There is one good reason to immigrate. We're expecting 12 inches (300mm) more soon. :-) Thank goodness for the edit button. Almost like it never happened. I re-worded. You better re-read. Serious only about blogging free!
"Failure is never final until one admits it". I think that was Thomas Edison (not sure), after he had unsuccessfully tried everything including the hair from the horses bottom (tail) for the "element" of his light bulb. Until, he found out it had to do with "nothing" (vacuum). So you have not yet failed, Iszhak! I still have hope (hatikvah)!
Yes, you are! :-)
Besides, before you write such a message, mostly in response to YOUR own thoughts, wouldn't have hurt to read once more MY words.
To make it sure, I only meant that if you moved DIRECTLY to US, you might not have the "useful" experience to enjoy ENOUGH being an Indian AND an American in US as compared with almost any other place.
Sorry! I'm still more confused. You twisted those words all over my brain. Reading always helps. I had to translate it to Hindi. Then I figured it out. I always read your precise contributions. Now I'll read it again before commenting. Lol!
@Vasile Surducan made a nice comment at the early beginning of this year. I must cite his words :"...If there is at least one person here which didn't observe this(political influence) at least once in his life, probably it should not work in research... ".
Nice words! Let's go back to thread!
Check this out! Here is my excuse for missunderstanding English from other parts of the world. I know a bit of this since I've had experience with the British English in India and the American vernacular as well. Funny stuff! Learn & enjoy!
H Chris Ransford · 20.70 · Karlsruhe Institute of Technology
"Here's a telling report of what passes for 'English' internationally:"
http://ec.europa.eu/translation/english/guidelines/documents/misused_english_terminology_eu_publications_en.pdf
Link to that RG discussion: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Do_you_think_that_English_is_a_good_language_for_Science
P.S. 'Cabinay' (Cabinet - UK's Governing body) is used by many Arabs, who've had the experience of French imposition, for the "toilet"! Lol!
Ravi: Now I am deeeply offended!!! :-)
The issue here is not the other guy/gal's language as much as it is juuust taking it easy and maybe with a bit more sense of humor. Reading once more also may (and probably did) really help getting the other one's thoughts rather than your own.
Besides, if for this specific point you meant me, it again is "wrong answer." :-)
You should have paid attention to the locations of my periods and question marks vs. quotation marks, things that may aggravate European English.
Though not a Native and not living in US right now, I myself definitely am an American and proud of it!
Keep emoting Itzhak! No offense meant. I'll get better. Let the world know! You cannot wash away American by living elsewhere. I learn everyday. I borrowed the link from another post, interesting one. Have fun! Do visit us on your next trip to the US. We'll hash it out over a beer. I work with a bunch of "open-minded" Sabras. Even though they've been here many decades I do catch them in some silly colloquialism every now and then as I do myself after 5 decades of working with English. Especially spelling! I have many compadres from the middle east. I'm married into it. The Egyptians are even funnier in their use of English. "Paper wall" instead of "wall paper", "paper toilet"...........etc.....lol! Which toe did I step on now?
Don't forget even some of the highly erudite & intelligent founding fathers of the US, religiously reading the English Bible (Old & New testaments), misunderstood completely the rejection of the institution of "slavery" since Moses. So, I still have a chance, yes? I'll improve!
Ravi, I would say we've more than exhausted ( and with a veryserious and erudite and philosophical analysis, too), any possible meaning of any word of a simple sentence (and a light joke, too) of mine.
Furthermore, I say:
"Time flies like an arrow."
You respond:
"Fruit flies like a banana."
I'll have to check with my partner Raviv from Tel Aviv on that joke. I'll figure it out. What's the weather like over where you are? It is freezing here. The roads are a mess and my driveway is all iced up. Post some warm weather photos, will you? At least we could enjoy it vicariously. :-)
Sir, we all live in some Paradigm and you live in yours, yet if you need explanations in order to understand my jokes and hints (Is "fruit flies" the problem???), it is much easier and closer to find them where you already are.
Actually, I doubt you can find answers among Sabras in Tel Aviv.UNLESS they have been exposed to some real and sufficient American experience.
Maybe you can just try Google instead.
As about the weather (or almost anything else, for that matter) in US, I happen to be updated. The weather here is very similar to "cold" winters in SC or FL. What for people here is terribly cold, you most probably would buy at any price right now.
However, this has become a personal dialog that we should take outside this specific topic. Back to the original topic, this is about politics, etc. I did not say much about it properly, because, even if and when it affects me, I learned to take it as a fact of life. Furthermore, long back I decided that no one owes me anything and whoever may not want me won’t have me. Nevertheless, I also think that I don’t know or, at least, that I never know enough and I must learn and all I can do is to try and do my best.
Cool Itzhak!:-) OMG! Duh! I get it now! Sorry! Just a little slow these days like the new light-bulb. I need to hang-out with younger folks more often, "Fruit flies like a banana." LOL! Finally, I get it! I even imagined bananas flying! LOL!
Politics and career are an inseparable mix, in my opinion. What are our choices?
1. Nepotism?
2. Authoritarianism?
3. Favoritism?
4. Arbitrarism?
5. Oligarchy?
6. 100% merit based. No consideration for leadership & management skills (politics?)?
7. A good blend based on local population preferences.
8. Merit based politics? An Oxymoron?
9. Others...including, increasing the general knowledge level of all participants. Starting with me.
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