Philadelphia, PA

Dear Radovan & readers,

I think you have many good answers to your question; and surely the Chinese will decide for themselves to what degree they want to use Latin script.

I wonder though, if there are no further reasons for their not using Latin script more extensively. I am no expert, and please correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that the ideographic character of Chinese script is quite important in holding the various dialects together. My understanding is that the dialects of Chinese are as different from each other as are, e.g., the various Latin-derived languages of Europe--such as French, Italian, Spanish, Rumanian, etc. In consequence, if the Chinese employed a more fully phonetic script, then the dialects would tend to turn into distinct languages. (Recall the old joke in linguistics: When are two dialects, dialects of the same language? Answer: when the people can understand each other and they have an army and navy in common.)

My understanding is that the major Chinese dialects are not mutually intelligible to native speakers of the dialects--without special training. In spite of that they can read and write the same characters--though the pronunciations are different. Its as though the Europeans all spoke their local languages and, in spite of that, all publication was in Latin. (Of course, at one time, this was actually done in Europe.) The Chinese characters help hold the different dialect groups together. China has a long history of unified, central government with various historical breakdowns into warring kingdoms. I believe that the Chinese see their script as a unifying force in their history.

H.G. Callaway

If they do, they will loose Chinese culture.

oy

sorry for the mess but i lost the control of my laptop.

anyway, you can alredy use the latin alphabet in order to communicate in chinese language, there are differnet phonetic alphabet to express the chinese language, now the formal one is "pinyin".

Arun Aditya Sahay is right, they will lose chinese cuture. There are other reasons, infact the phonetic system of chinese language doesn't suit latin alphabet. chinese phonetics is based on tones and is full of omophones. Chinese chacarters (hanzi 汉字) has different ways of expression, there are simple and composed hanzi with iconographic, symbolic and phonetic funcionts. Another aspectc is the importance of the relationship between chinese characters and chinese culture. Infact since the Shang dynasty (1600-1046 a.C. ) chinese people use hanzi and the oldest chinese writing system we know is already an evolved system, with all the aspects I said before. So is easy to understand how hanzi can be an heritage of history, poetry, art and all the culture in general.

I do not think that China would lose Chinese culture by changing the script. They wear tie, which I have never done! Anyway, cultures (plural) ought to change for humanity to progress. Not every change is good, but some changes are needed to make some things better.

"Chinese phonetics is based on tones and is full of omophones ..."

I heard about that. But I saw (on Chinese TV) the same sentences written in Latin alphabet and in Chinese script; the former were much simpler. I heard (on Chinese TV) that some Chinese "expressions" (if I may call them so) are vague, and that remarkable mistakes are sometimes made by the most literate people. I will leave to Chinese people to write as they wish; I am simply curious why they adopted capitalism, Western way of dressing and so forth, but not the alphabet.

I'm not sure, but many repressive regimes are not keen on 'the masses' being educated. The long heritage of Chinese culture is certainly cherished and preserved in China without resorting to the Latin alphabet; but access to the outside world and international stores of knowledge is kept from the majority of Chinese people. Could that be the reason?

Macaulay's education system destroyed both the Vedic as well as Islamic Education system in Indian sub continent. Not only the education system was lost but tc a great extent the culture was lost. o doubt, one can use the latin alphabet in order to communicate in chinese language but it can be efficient in oral communication. Using this in literature will result loosing the value of hanzi characters which are with iconographic, symbolic and phonetic. Further, the relationship between chinese characters and chinese culture is strong and very important. Chinese Mandarin uses hanzi and the oldest chinese writing system, we know, has evolved from chinese culture. Hanzi is not only heritage but a base of history, poetry, art and all the culture. Therefore, I strongly feel that replacement of Chinese characters by latin alphabet will neither be accepted by chinese society nor will it allow the culture to be unaffected.

Arun, I accept your explanation. But I must say that I have never been impressed by any culture as something fixed and everlasting. Europeans adopted Arabic numbers and (as much as I know) Chinese people have done the same. I live at the intersection of the Romanic, Germanic and Slavic etnicities and cultures. In my view, cultures should learn to learn from each other, not only to struggle against each other.

Laurence, your remark may be correct, but I am not sure it is. I heard that more than three hundred millions Chinese people learn English, and that sixty millions learn to play piano. China is not so "closed" as it used to be several decades ago. Anyway, my question was purely practical: would it not be convenient (profitable) for China to change the scripture?

Hello,

I have never been there in China and I don't know Chinese vocabulary. However, I studied the phonology and writing system of Chinese for my panphonological project http://wikipanfo.bellot.biz/en/zh-silp. If you ever want to know how it works, go to http://www.archchinese.com/chinese_pinyin.html and follow all possible links to pinyin, sound, character... Caution, for example the same "i" pinyin letter does not make the same sound when not in the same column in https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-pinyin-chart.php. We use the same "i" letter but it is not the same object.

Massive introduction of Pinyin was a decision of Mao round 1958, for economic and strategic purposes. Bopomofo in Taiwan is another form for identical structure and content.

A Chinese person told me that, as Chinese characters are difficult to learn, kids at school apprentice first with pinyin (latin characters with diacritics for tones) and gradually introduce Chinese characters. So all Chinese under 50 learned have used latin characters at school. So majority of Chinese people know latin characters and pinyin.

So if you want to practice Chinese, learn pinyin, using latin characters. One day perhaps, you will have the need to give interest to native characters, or not.

Phonology does not make all, writing system does not make all. Relationships between them is most of time a mess, but it is normal and fruitful.

A natural language is a phonology, one or more writing systems and a written literature (in ancient times an oral literature).

Mario, I entirely agree with your contention that Europeans adopted Arabic numbers and (Zero came from India). I, too, have experienced different cultures like Vidic, Romanic, Islamic, Germanic and Slavic cultures. Every culure is unique. We need to learn from every culture; that should not mean that we should loose our culture.

Chinese has introduced a pinyin system for us and is the closest way to romanization of Chinese as possible. It has been very useful for non-Chinese to learn Mandarin and it is how I learned Mandarin!! It is also the most efficient way of typing Chinese characters on the keyboard. I think it would be nearly impossible to introduce something "more modern" to over 1 billion people. Oh yes, and Chinese characters have deep rooted meanings that would be lost if they "changed their language" to a Romanized language.

To answer your purely practical question "would it not be convenient (profitable) for China to change the scripture [to the Latin alphabet]?".

I would say no, because the Chinese people have their own script. I am Swedish and when I am in Sweden I mainly use the Swedish modified version of the Latin script, not the Chinese script because no one would understand me.

No doubt, using latin alphabet is very useful for non-Chinese to learn Mandarin but why should a chinese, who has been using it throgh generations, from birth to death, should abandon it?

Education and culture are two pillars of legacy left to the civilized as their inheritance from their past existence. As a Greek i can cannot conceive latinizing Greek script .I think millions of Chinese share my ideas. Mandarin may be a difficult script but carries a semiotic tint. By the way a student must have ,and has, a good idea of he is going to cope with trying to learn Chinese .Non-Chinese learners should accept the fact that a language depicts the way its speakers conceive the world and the concept of civilization.

Philadelphia, PA

Dear Radovan & readers,

I think you have many good answers to your question; and surely the Chinese will decide for themselves to what degree they want to use Latin script.

I wonder though, if there are no further reasons for their not using Latin script more extensively. I am no expert, and please correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that the ideographic character of Chinese script is quite important in holding the various dialects together. My understanding is that the dialects of Chinese are as different from each other as are, e.g., the various Latin-derived languages of Europe--such as French, Italian, Spanish, Rumanian, etc. In consequence, if the Chinese employed a more fully phonetic script, then the dialects would tend to turn into distinct languages. (Recall the old joke in linguistics: When are two dialects, dialects of the same language? Answer: when the people can understand each other and they have an army and navy in common.)

My understanding is that the major Chinese dialects are not mutually intelligible to native speakers of the dialects--without special training. In spite of that they can read and write the same characters--though the pronunciations are different. Its as though the Europeans all spoke their local languages and, in spite of that, all publication was in Latin. (Of course, at one time, this was actually done in Europe.) The Chinese characters help hold the different dialect groups together. China has a long history of unified, central government with various historical breakdowns into warring kingdoms. I believe that the Chinese see their script as a unifying force in their history.

H.G. Callaway

Dear all

Who speaks of latinizing Chinese script speaks of latinizing Chinese Culture a culture of circa 3500 years. It stands the same chance as a snowball in Hell.

> i agree with H.G.Callaway on this point

https://u.osu.edu/mclc/book-reviews/beyond-sinology/

C.A, Jeannacopoulos

The real question is why does the rest of the world delay in adopting the Chinese script (it's not an alphabet)

Chinese script writes words and ideas, not sounds. So you can use it to write any language.

Furthermore, if you can read and write Chinese, you can communicate with anyone else who can. It doesn't matter if neither of you can speak Chinese.

So – speak your own language, but learn to write and read Chinese!

A problem is that there are so many homophonic words in Chinese, not mentioning the pain that adding tones to pinyin causes. In addition, Chinese writing has an important aesthetic appeal to both natives and non-natives, and many would perceive loosing this as disasterous. In addition, there is the dialect thing that many on this thread mentioned. I would also add that there is a basic question: why should they? I mean, as an economic superpower and with a high literacy rate, the Chinese can rightly expect others to learn Chinese writing!

China is word's 2nd largest economy. Being an economic superpower having a high literacy rate, the Chinese can surely expect others to learn Chinese writing rather than their changing their own script which has an important aesthetic appeal to both natives and non-natives. Changing of sriot may be perceived disasterous. After all, why should they change the script when they have the market power.

Ronán: "The real question is why does the rest of the world delay in adopting the Chinese script (it's not an alphabet)"

Answer: Because we use the Latin script.

"Chinese script writes words and ideas, not sounds. So you can use it to write any language."

Answer: The Chinese script is highly based on sounds. That is actually the idea with the script. Read about the radicals. And no, you cannot use it to write any language. This is a paradoxical to what you just said: "Chinese script writes words and ideas", hence very unique. The Chinese script is based on a combination of semantic and phonetic elements.

To whom it might concern.

The following comes to correct my former citation of "circa 3500 years of culture"

Historically , the first characters are not the writing forms of the present day Chinese language characters; rather, they are were pictures, figurative expressions configurations made by prehistoric inhabitants. Inscriptions have been found on pottery and rocks throughout the Neolithic China (around 6000–1700 BC) and some geometric and pictorial patterns do resemble characters used today. This could, perhaps, support the claim that Chinese characters have a history of over 6,000 years; however, most of these figures were painted independently one from the other, the integrity and the consistency of the meaning production are not being maintained . Thus, these characters should not be considered as the evidence of a written form of the language but rather a model that determined its ideographic essence.

Semiotically speaking, Chinese characters are signs. They have characteristics of both pictorial signs and linguistic signs. During prehistoric times when the characters had been pictorial signs — though not yet systematic — their ability to produce meaning independently from the verbal language is still remarkable. The construction of the Chinese written language system required a transformation of the prehistoric characters, but this does not mean that they would have become purely linguistic signs, in fact, the two are unified. . Each modern Chinese character is a unification of form, sound and meaning; these three elements did not just come together by accident, their unification is motivated by the iconic nature of the pictorial signs and the linguistic ones.

Regards

The greek, the russian, the hebraic, the arab languages don' t use either the latin caracters. So what the mater?!

Thank you for all the answers; I learned a lot, indeed.

Adriano: "The greek, the russian, the hebraic, the arab languages don' t use either the latin caracters. So what the mater?!"

"The matter" is that Chinese script is much more sophisticated (demanding for learning) than the scripts (alphabets) you mentioned. Hence, I asked whether it would (not) be profitable (practical) to use something simpler. There can be many answers to such a question, but the question is rather clear.

I had alook at the Mandarin Chinese Pinyin Table. True, Mao brough Pinyin but the issue is why should China abandon its script for Latin script. What will they gain?

It' not practical for us, not for them!

Since we are here, allow me a small digression. RG sent me these two messages today:

(1) Your question reached 100 reads Why do China not introduce Latin alphabet?

(2) With 110 new reads, your contributions were the most read contributions from your department

And guess what: my "RG stats" went from 19.5 to 18.19

I am not interested in "RG stats", but this seems strange to me. I do not understand the rules of this game.

Anyway, we concluded that China will not adopt Latin alphabet; but I still hold that their script looks very complicated (demanding). A lot of time is needed to learn it and to write by/in it.

https://www.worldstandards.eu/alphabets/

Why should all the mentioned in the map non-latin scripts revert to latin ?? I cannot justify why non-latin should give-up their tradition and culture and follow latinized scripts.Can anybody give me a GOOD reason.

Thanks

I agree with Constantine. It is not about Chinese language. Wordwide, there are so many scripts other than Latin. Why should any of those scripts be abolished.

As a professional teacher, I learned that it is not possible to explain anything to anybody. Thanks Zeus, I am approaching the retirement age.

Constantine asks "a good reason" for introducing a simpler script than Chinese one is. I mentioned the reasons several times: simplicity, saving time and tons of ink, easier communication with the rest of the world, and so forth.

I used to watch Chinese television (broadcasting in English) and I heard all these reasons on that television in various discussions, mostly with foreigners living in China. I did not invent the issue of scripture: I heard it from various scholars and business people on Chinese television.

Latin alphabet is irrelevant in this story; the adoption of whichever simpler script could be profitable for many people and in many ways.

"Culture" does not mean much to me. Culture changes constantly, and it does not depend much on script. Chinese television has changed enormously during the last 20 years. It used to be very quiet; it has become more noisy and erratic than Western television are. China looks like America, with a more complicated script.

Mario

You are asking others to change, why can't we even if we find many road blocks.

Mario,

Again: The easiest script for Chinese people is the Chinese script, because that is what they use. It's not complicated for them at all. For us it is, yes, but we don't live in China. I understand your point and those people working with international companies, etc, probably already know how to use other scripts.

Europe has half the population of China, so in that case it would be better for us to learn the Chinese script.

Even if culture does not mean much to you, it means much to other people. China has recently open up to the world. I have lived in China and they care about the Chinese culture.

Thank you for your explanation, Johan!

You say: "The easiest script for Chinese people is the Chinese script, because that is what they use. It's not complicated for them at all."

I had an opportunity to visit China (a common research project) but I left my place to a younger colleague. I can accept what you say, but I am not convinced that Chinese script is so easy "for Chinese people". I saw on Chinese television a discussion whether the name of a city (written in Chinese) actually means "kitchen". The discussion was rather long and opinions were divided. Such a script does nor seem "easy" to me.

There are Chinese shops and restaurants here; I asked a young lady whether it was difficult to learn to write Chinese. "Your language, too, is difficult to learn", she answered. I missed the opportunity to ask the same question the Chinese colleagues when they visited my department. I will ask them when they come next time.

Arun says: " You are asking others to change, why can't we even if we find many road blocks."

This is a very good question, but it misinterprets my question. I do not "ask others to change"; I ask whether it would (not) be profitable (for them and us) to do so. These are different questions.

Regarding changes, I am impressed with those scientist who do not want to speak in terms of metres and centigrade system (in the media), although they use these measures in scientific calculations. So, "we" (or some of "us") are surely not good in adopting things we are not used to.

Mario,

Culture is not ,will not be, of "trade"with simplicity .

Let alone the linguistic and pronunciation issues deriving from utterances (phonetics) in various languages.

As Johan correctly mentions

All who trade with Arab countries learn Arabic to be more efficient.

and all who deal with Israel have to know Hebrew.

Why foreign delegations in foreign countries have to know the language of the country to which they are delegated

I cannot imagine latinized Greek Arabic nor Hebrew.

LET GLOBALIZATION STOP HERE

Cheers.

PS Sino script dates from circa 1250 BC.

Mario:

I reacted a bit what you said about the Chinese script being difficult because they, for example, don't know "the name of a city (written in Chinese) actually means 'kitchen'. This is interesting and gives an extra dimension to the language. I would say most people don't know the exact or original meaning of many English words. That's why disciplines like semantics and etymology exist from the first place.

All the views that have been put forward in this discussion may be correct or partially correct. But the most important opinion seems the following one: "the Chinese see their script as a unifying force in their history." (H. G. Callaway). This is a strong (and probably sufficient) reason not to change the (unifying) script.

Yes, that's good. China is a big country and has 299 living languages, so it's quite practical to have one single script that bind them together.

True, this unified script has created a unified culture that Chinese will like to preserve.

i agree with Johan and Arun.

That will preserve the Chinese Script.

I think, we need to conclude the debate. Chinese people are the right persons to debate and decide.

Thanks to everybody! I learned interesting things which I did not know.

A Tolkien verse. that could fit for Johan Josefsson's

>.'

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

It has pragmatic aspects as you said, but everyone being the same in the world is not a good idea. I think we also need different styles, different cultures and different perspectives.

Chinese is composed of 80000 characters but around 4000 are used for normal use these are the the components of an ideogram.

Ideographs are compounds, composed of two or more existing characters. In terms of structure, an ideograph is a composition of two or more characters side by side or one on top of another. In terms of meaning, an ideograph is also a composition of the meanings of its component characters. Can we latinize 4000 characters or an ideogram. Why should lose the culture .

I highly recommend John DeFrancis's book, which addresses much that is relevant to the question:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Language:_Fact_and_Fantasy

Table of contents:

http://www.pinyin.info/readings/chinese_language.html

A free full copy (EPUB) can be downloaded here:

http://en.bookfi.net/s/?q=the+chinese+language+fact+and+fantasy&e=1&t=0

Karl, thank you for the address:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Language:_Fact_and_Fantasy

I am not a linguist; I watch Chinese television (in English) sometimes, and I got the same impression as the author of the Wikipedia article got, which can be expressed in the following way:

Wiki: "The Chinese script, with its huge number of characters, its complexity and its irregularities, is harmful to the literacy improvement efforts of the Chinese society, and needs to be replaced by a more efficient writing system if China is to achieve the benefits of modernization."

We all say that we should keep cultures, but sometimes I think that we should critically consider some aspects of a culture. In this aspect I agree with Mr. Radovan atlhough I believe that we should maintain diversity of cultures. I mean we cannot "take it for granted" that all the things in culture should be kept. We sometimes do not think objectively when it comes to (especially our own) culture. Can some aspects of a culture be harmful/abusive/degenerative/against development and so on... ? This is of course a very tricky question and open to a big debate which is why there are so many comments on Mr. Radovan's question.

" Can some aspects of a culture be harmful/abusive/degenerative/against development and so on... ?"

They often are; but some (many) people do not love changes, for various reasons. Some want to preserve certain privileges, some want to have "a firm framework of existence/life", and so forth.

I am not an expert of chinese characters. What little I know is that Chinese is composed of 80000 characters, out of which around 4000 are in normal use. These characters are the components of an ideogram which is combination of several

Ideographs which are compounds, composed of two or more existing characters. Further, an ideograph is a composition of two or more characters that may be placed side by side or above and/or below. Is it not difficult, if not impossible, to latinize 4000 characters or ideogram. However, the main question is why chinese should do it? Why should they lose their culture? What will they gain by doing it? As it is, whole world has satrted learning Chinese as second language.

(1) "Is it not difficult, if not impossible, to latinize 4000 characters or ideogram."

It does not seem impossible; I asked this question because I saw such "latinization" on the Chinese television ("Central China Television" - now "Global ..."). Let me repeat: Latin alphabet is not essential here; I asked about introducing a *simpler* script.

(2) "... the main question is why Chinese should do it? Why should they lose their culture?"

This is a big question indeed. My answers:

(a) Script is not culture; it is part of it.

(b) Cultures (should) change; without changes, the present cultures and religions would not exist. They are all human creations.

(c) Life in the contemporary China has been westernized in practical terms. I started to watch Chinese television many years ago, precisely because it was different from Western televisions. It was calm & lovely. Today, Chinese television has become even more "Western" than Western televisions are. Its programs are noisy and erratic; everything is in motion and changes.

Let Chinese people do what they wish; I am surely not the one to give them advice. However, I hold that some things can be changed sometimes. Tradition (culture) should not be an absolute reason against changes.

Mario

I tend to agree with your statement " Let Chinese people do what they wish." If they want to get westernized, if they want to change their script, who are we to stop them. Having said this, I would also like to emphasize that we need not persuade them to change because it suits us.

I think that it is up to the Chinese to decide on such move. I am also certain that for people who wish to learn one of the Chinese languages (there is no Chinese language as such) that there are textbooks that have transcriptions of a Chinese language with Latin letters to teach the sound.....

Eberhard

Issue is somewhat different. Should Chinese change their script?