Dear All,

A good politician or a good political intention or trend can help to increase enormously the efficiency of education. Bad or ignorant politicians can easily destroy the work of many educators during decades.

In my opinion The importance of politician , educators ,scientists and researches is

can be summarized in the following points

1- Scientist try to put the best and useful science for the people and community.

2-Scientists should lead the country in a way that saves money energy and effort.

3- Researchers should sit down and think inways of providing the government with all solution in differenr areas of life.

4-Educators should do the best and great effort to teach the young generatio the correct way of thinking in a manner that is suitable to every body in the community based on the age of each generation.

@Hatem, thanks.

But you forgot about the politicians?

The role of politicians is of far greater importance in developing countries like Pakistan because they are the ones who have to make the policies and divert funds. Although the educators, scientists and researchers are important yet without the support of politicians they can do nothing. In Pakistan the health and education sector get less than 10% of the National Budget and educators, scientists and researchers have to make do with it.

@Abdalla et al., so everyone has important roles! Let's see what our friends across Europe, US, Southern continents and Asia will add to enrich our discussion of what's happening in their countries :)

Dear Mirinda

Politicians should coordinate between researchers scientists and educators

Unfortunately these days’ politics is never considered as a dignified profession. This idea came from the activities of most of the present day politicians. However we can not deny that in democratic setup politicians play the key roles in governing a country. If we assume that they have the capability to do so then I recommend the following.

The Politicians should suggest the road map for development and therefore education should get prime importance in their considerations. Politicians who are in the government should propose the abstract education system to be adopted in the country that would lead to proper development. Then it should be the responsibility of the experienced educators to work out detail and implement the same. During such effort inputs from the researchers working different disciplines that include Science, Engineering, History, Language studies etc. should be considered. The politicians, who are in the opposition, should act as a monitor for the entire activity. We should not forget that teaching and research are two complementary activities; these two words are not synonyms.

Dear Miranda

Policy should allow an educational project that has democracy as a core value

Educating is a human specificity. The teacher adds value to society, so that citizens who battle for the right, and that is open to dialogue

The research is an educational principle in educational performance of professors

The scientist is a major worldwide reference for both his studies and for his personality (Albert Einstein)

By definition educators and scientists are essential for any kind of educational system. Unfortunately, at least for the educational and research establishments financed by the state, politicians are expected to vote for the science budget in the National assembly. So, they should understand at least partially what science is

about.

Interesting and difficult to answer question !

I guess it is difficult to answer because the answer may largely depend on the political culture of individual countries and constituencies. Comes to mind the way Richard Feynman and Andrey Kolmogorov were actively involved in high-school curricular definition, Feynman a more direct participant in curricular discussions within the limits of some state or neighborhood jurisdiction (I can't exactly recall), Kolmogorov contributing to all-union Soviet guidelines. Of course, these are generalizations (if I recall correctly, their involvement included even teaching occasional high-school classes). Yet, they seem to illustrate how different political cultures and institutions - in their cases, two different models for the role of the central State - may affect the very selection of stakeholders, and the definition of their roles.

After saying that, I think the field of education offers one fantastic way to encroach the very ideas of citizenship and democracy. So, my opinion would be that, ideally, the more the roles of politicians, policy-makers, scientists and educators are mediated by public participation (down to the level of parents and pupils), the more chances we have to enjoy a more lively and better educational system.

Dear friends, thanks for your very interesting and enlightening comments. I will respond tomorrow morning from the desktop. Sometimes my mobile internet doesn't seem to function well. Thanks

Sent from mobile.

It depends on the region... the country.... under investigation.

Of course politics and politicians are the ones who have control over everything.. they can change the history if they like.. they can also shade light on what they think is interesting and completely ignore what they think is not important for them...

The rest: teacher, researchers either in science or education, are more or less the marionettes. This is shocking for most of you, but this is more or less how it is going worldwide...

We researchers try to do our best to make our efforts visible and applicable, but if they are not of interest to the politicians and decision makers, they are ignored...

The world would only move from bad to worse unless we do something against this...

Thanks for the very nice and deep question :)

Politics is a part of human group dynamics and of society as a whole, and can never be overlooked. Politics has to do with the exercise of power over society. We have to understand that education is an arena for power struggles. Politicians will try to implement their agenda, as education serves ideological and economic interests. Participation of other members of society (teachers, parents, community members, students) is crucial for attaining balance. Educators and researchers should be able to develop their own views about what education should be and where it should be heading. In my opinion, educators and researchers often conform to what politicians want to hear. Educators oftentimes are just mere executors of what politicians say they must teach and how they are to teach. Society is based on a consensus and through democracy we delegate power on a group of people who are meant to represent society as a whole. However, we must be aware of political agendas and we also must have procedures for balancing power and to hear the voice of all people involved in the educational process.

Dear Miranda,

In France, politics is everywhere and rules any scientific activity, either directly or indirectly. For instance, regarding the academic research, which I know the best, scientists work in public establishment organized according to national laws, and general directors are set by the government. Research is therefore directly influenced by governmental politics, but it's not as simple, because regional and local politicians also have impact on the way academic institutions work.

And the roloe of politics in research is sometimes very insidious as regards, for instance, funding of activities through public or even private call for projects. The value of the project is indeed not the only element taken into account in such processes, as your chance to be funded increases with the quality of your "political" network.

The good thing is that it works in both sides, as each new President has his own scientific counsellors, which means that scientisis also impact reversely on politics. Or should I say that politics and science are sometimes very much interconnected.

Obviously, my description is a bit simplisitc, but it works a bit like this.

Dear Miranda,

It depends on the country.

Here in Greece, also like France, politics rules everything, but it does it with the wrong way. Unfortunately the country that born Plato and Aristotles is controlled by a clique of politicians that:

1)they all belong to a few families and change each other every four years

2)they are at least 'not so strict with corruption', to write it politely

3)whenever they make an 'educational reformation' they increase the level of grammatical errors.

I think that politicians are not so efficient in my country for Education.

@Qurratulann, thanks. Now this info that you have given is quite new to me. If only 10 % is given to education, to what avenues do the 90 % go? I think that in a developing nation, the major part of national budget should be for education.

@Vladan, you say that 'politicians are expected to vote for the science budget in the National assembly. So, they should understand at least partially what science is'. Then, among the [Serbian?] politicians - ministers and deputies - if I may think that your political system is quite similar to mine, how many are scientists of some sort, or were from science background? Please tell us.

@Alaa, thanks for your response. You say: 'they can also shed light on what they think is interesting and completely ignore what they think is not important for them...' I agree and how I wish that we, scientists can have a voice in the running of our country.

We SHOULD, things like environment conservation and management, optimum use of resources, healthcare are right up our streets! If not scientists like us, who else has the knowledge? Or are we too busy with our students, too buried in our labs?

@Patrick, Edgar: thanks for your views. Thanks for:

'Politicians will try to implement their agenda, as education serves ideological and economic interests. Participation of other members of society (teachers, parents, community members, students) is crucial for attaining balance. Educators and researchers should be able to develop their own views about what education should be and where it should be heading.' I surely agree, as would many RG folks.

@ Sebastien, thanks.

'The good thing is that it works in both sides, as each new President has his own scientific counselors, which means that scientists also impact reversely on politics. Or should I say that politics and science are sometimes very much interconnected.' It seems that the FRENCH politicians are very SMART to have scientists for advisors, do you agree? Perhaps that's why France always seems to do well in science.

@Demetris: thanks for the info on Greece and your great humor. Very enjoyable to read your humorous posts, you know? Yes, from the land of Plato and Aristotle, famous for WISDOM, how is the connection now between politics, science and the nation's economy? I'm just asking what comes to mind, no pressure for you, my scientist friend :)

@Ahed, thanks. I am very happy that the politicians / royals are concerned about Scientific and humanitarian projects.

DEAR FRIENDS, please continue to post anytime you can. Our time zones differ, never mind about that. Your posts are interesting and informative. THANKS.

I think in a good education system, all four (Politicians, educators, scientists and researchers) compliment each other. They are like four wheels of a car. Proper alignment is essential for a safe and joyful journey.

@Miranda, I think you have left administrators.

In my opinion four pillars of an educational system are-

1. Politician- Policy makers and fund providers

2. Administrators- Policy managers and implementers

3. Educators- soldiers of the battle of education

4. Scientist/Researchers- to devise new techniques and technology for betterment of education, educator and educated.

Dear Darasingh, thanks and congratulations. Your response is brief, but well-thought. I have updated my question, as you suggested. So we all need one another on RG. The question/ explanation is better now :)

Quite informative Shyoran sir.

@Miranda at all, 4 vertices / politicians,educators, scientists and researchers/ form the plane of education, although for the plane formation three vertices are enough! For me politics is redundant in the field of education, but since it can not be avoided, we have to live with!

@Ljubomir and friends, most of the researchers think that the function of politicians is to provide the money and distribute it fairly and generously to us, right? Tonight friends, please pray for the politicians that they have WISDOM to rule well, to know that honesty is the best POLICY, and work hard to strengthen the economy.

Dear Demetris,

You are a man with unlimited experiences or politicians are very similar to each other in each country. However, there is a big difference it is only one country which bore Homer, but we can see this humble fact cannot influence the integrity of policy makers.

Dear All,

A good politician or a good political intention or trend can help to increase enormously the efficiency of education. Bad or ignorant politicians can easily destroy the work of many educators during decades.

Each of them effect and affect to other

@Andras, thanks for your views.

@Mamdouh Helali, please tell us how this 'effect' works out in your country.

@Friends, thanks all of you. I hope you enjoy this thread. I have holidays till Sunday for the Chinese New Year break, but I still have the mobile to read your interesting posts. Before I joined RG (and before RG was born), I spent some holiday time driving with friends and practicing driving, because it's not one of my natural talents.

@Miranda, this sound card is in line with your thread!. Singer walks and play! Good luck!

http://www.123greetings.com/events/chinese_new_year/good_luck/gongxi_song.html

Dear All,

An ignorant politician can destroy with a stroke of pen the education of millions of people. Remember, when a congressman wanted to repeal the handwriting in the USA. Fortunately, in vain. Unfortunately, many running amok can ruin the future of education.

In Jamaica, the Minister of Education, who is a Member of Parliament (MP) structure Educational policies which is an indication that this Politician plays much more than a major role in the Jamaican Education System since he/she is actually the source of whatever happens in our Education System.. As educators in Jamaica we really fulfill the structured Educational Policies of the political party in power directed by the Minister of Education and guided by the Ministry of Education.

I would say that the roles of educators, administrators and scientists in the Jamaican Education system is that of followers, since they follow that which is already drafted for the Education System. Minor adjustments can be carried out within individual institutions but this cannot stray far from the main policies of the Education Ministry led by the Education Minister .

In Jamaica Educational institution are governed by Board of Governors which consists of individuals appointed in conjunction with politicians and is further indication that the political element of supervision is present in the education system. Education Officers (EOs) of necessity must rigorously monitor the implementation and maintenance of educational policies in the educational institutions.

I believe the researchers have the greatest freedom in Jamaica if they are politically neutral and really investigate the strengths and weaknesses of the Minister's Educational Policies and their contribution to academic development, economic growth.. The problem with this effort is that it usually takes place after implementation of educational policies and usually comes in the form of reports and based on the political party connection of the researcher may or may not be seen as valuable by the Minister and his/her Ministry of Education. .

I agree with @Edgar statement: “We have to understand that education is an arena for power struggles. Politicians will try to implement their agenda, as education serves ideological and economic interests”.

In Algeria, education is a trampling for ideological interests serving politicians, economic interests for political issue are lacking since petrochemical income serves the regime. However, it looks like the educational scheme and rules are dictate by third parts from foreign political issue.

Dear Darasingh,

Administrators, and other policy managers and implementers are called bureaucrats. They are very busy to get a big slice from the bred of others. They are able to destroy even good decisions of policy makers. They are responsible for about 10% of the bad decisions. Their only objective is to maintain their - often unnecessary - position at any price. Yes, they are the best servants (pillars) of politicians.

Based on the current and long term needs of the society, the politicians provide the vision, guidance, framework, resources and an enabling conducive environment for all the stake holders of the education system. Scientists and researchers create new knowledge for the educators to disseminate to the concerned audience. Everyone of them plays a vital role for the spread of knowledge and education.

"As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business, the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance"Dewey.You can't realize your own potential and achieve self-actualization if you don't belong to "the chosen" I remember, how Solzhenitzin was surprised,"I thought you had democracy, but you have oligarchy"All is controlled by politics. ,

@Ljubomir, Andras, Fairouz, thanks :)

@Md Riaz, thanks for describing a near perfect situation. But friends, the comments on this thread seem to indicate that in reality, we don't achieve this perfect situation in many countries. Just read Andras' and Irina's recent posts.

@Jaqueline, thanks for giving us lots of info about education in your country.

Friends, I have come back from the usual New Year visitations. My folks, young and old, are healthy. I praise and thank God. I'm back at RG, but I don't have a computer here.

Sent from mobile.

新年好! (That must be happy New Year in Chinese :)

High authorities in our country have made education one of the cornerstones of their administration, undertaking several reform measures in an effort to improve education system achievement. Can’t say more than that and, yes, politics and education are inseparable.

Yet, while being able to understand some complex ways that the political landscape affects education experiences by following the current thread, I’m wondering whether an education is necessary for politicians?

the role of politician is good governance with good leadership skills, educators role is to mould the new arena learners, and researchers and scientists role is to bring about new findings tog ive new meaning to the human kind. The only link between them is how how the resources are well utilized to bring about change with every passing day.

Thanks Abdessamad and Elsa.

Friends, it's very likely that many agree to the question of the last part in Abdessamad's post. It's my responsibility to pray for our politicians often. I live in a multi ethnic society. When there is peace, it's the most beautiful place, or 1 of the most beautiful on earth.

Sent from mobile.

@ Abdessamad Mouzoune : "... I’m wondering whether an education is necessary for politicians?" ~~~ Too late! Don't forget, people decide, that a career as politician is more suited for them, because they didn't or don't like the other options, e.g. because of bad experiences in the school system as it is, or because of expecting higher chances of personal success in a political career, or for all kinds of personality factors they may or may not be aware of. Once the decision has been made, it is too late for education, because the role of a politician is to make societal decisions based on personal values and beliefs, more or less representing values and beliefs in a given society, and based on facts to be delivered by the "experts". At least so it works or is claimed to work in a democracy. There will always be a tension between these representational decision-makers and the different (!) stakeholders within science, research and education, because also the latter ones have a strong ego and may believe, that their values and beliefs are in some way better, e.g. more objective and more effective, than those of politicians. Who knows?

I do not know what happens in other countries in this regard, but in India, the politicians sometimes interfere in matters related to appointments of teachers.

Hello Hemanta,

some people call this 'networking' to transmit ideas

Fundamental research, education, economy and politics

Fundamental research in wildlife indicates that individuals store more resources for future use in less predictable environments. If we would apply this to the human society, we might predict that people invest more in the economy/society when the environment is more predictable. More predictable environments are created when there is a fixed salary in time. People with fixes salaries are less afraid to invest in the future by spending and sharing. These are simple biology-based principles that can be proposed in a fundamental research framework. I presume politicians are not aware of that because they most often were not educated in a fundamental science framework.

Politics is not so autonomous and different as projected in the present thread. There is lot of politics among the educators, researchers and scientists engaged in the field of education. In the Indian context, at a number of times, politics is attributed to 'polluted tricks'. Recently, the media is seen to promote the idea, 'politics is not rocket science'. The implicit idea is most of the space scientists understand politics as a simple tool like common catapults. However, if politics is appreciated as 'concentrated economics', the science to understand different types of coordination among workers engaged in varied fields, the engine to regulate the value systems of societies, every leader (whatever might be the branch of specialization) would have spent sometime to master at least the 'ABC of politics' and we could have managed our natural as well as human resources much more rationally. This didn't happen. It will be better to say, the state, controlled principally by vested interests, didn't let it happen almost routinely as a policy measure. As a result the bureaucracy had its sway, red tap-ism in every aspect of life (be it education, extension or research) made the matter from bad to worse. The need of the hour is to grow awareness among the educators, researchers and scientists to share at least some amount of political tasks. Otherwise, power-crazy, self-seeking smart barbarians are bound to take over all policy-decision making instruments to disturb the overall ecosystem and make the planet earth too vulnerable (as observed by Bellamy Foster) to live.

@ Siddhartha Lahiri : Great contribution to this discussion! Should we take up again the old Greek's principle that only philosophers should become statesmen? (I think it was Plato who made this statement, right?) Certainly this would up-value the discipline of philosophy and give philosophers a fair chance on the job market!

@Paul, Hemanta, Marcel, Siddhartha and friends. Thanks for your great ideas ALL of you. You made my day wonderful by making me think and make mental connections.

Sent from mobile.

good question but actually there is no real answer I think. While policy makers are obliged to assure the education of teachers (all levels actually) they should also be obliged to assure a consistent and reliable teaching schedule to puiples and students. now what does that mean: 1) politicians should be well aware that teaching end resulting education is not necessarily a field for many experiments, be more cautious about changing regimes for education and teachers respectively. 2) assure that degrees as results of teaching are comparable and complementary within countries and between countries. here the often ciuted globalization comes in: in any part of the world you can obtain degrees which are called similar but what's behind them remains unclear. some framework initiated by policy and implemented accordingly which makes degrees comparable would be a good thing. but we should remember that the purpose of such framework should be to allow the ones enjoying education to be mobile between the educations systems and not misusing such a framework for the ever lasting "benchmarking" and "rankings". education institutions will build reputation and image over time but if they strive for entering rankings only the effects are not predictable.

much kore to elaborate on the questions for sure

Hello Dirk and friends, the idea is to get your views on how you see it, or what you see happening in your own country. Each time I ask a question, I learn from all of you. I get more than just the answer, I get a view into your thinking processes. You are great, making our RG discussions great. Usually the responses show that 'great minds think alike'.

@Paul Vossen: Thank you for your interesting response. The Plato's scheme of society, the four categories of citizens (and particularly different tenures of education prescribed accordingly) suggested and the emphasis given on "basic elements" (not governed by the place of birth as such) to realize a true democracy was definitely a great innovation. Many policy makers, knowingly or unknowingly, follow in essence the identical doctrine. Say, for example, in India, most of the government jobs are having four types of entry level. They call it Class I, Class II, Class III and Class IV jobs. Class IV is the lowest. Whatever might be your educational qualification, the entry level determines where will you end up. Yes, philosopher kings were at the topmost level in the Plato's scheme of society. In the Indian scenario too, bureaucracy is principally governed by the Class I post holders. This topmost level of bureaucracy is constituted of professionally trained doctors, engineers, lawyers, sociologists and of course philosophers. But once they become part of a bureaucracy, a peculiar kind of metamorphosis(Kafkan?!) takes place and they start behaving like cool pythons, ever ready to gobble up projects, prospects and dreams of wider concern. This is merely a general observation. There are exceptions. I am not sure whether hunting for Philosopher Kings in place of Philandering Protagonists to lead a nation in political platforms will help to improve quality education or not- but definitely I did not intend to do advocacy for philosophers so that they can manage some jobs in the recessionary market.

I think that education must be kept far away from political fighting interests. Education must be thought by experts and professionals and managed by peers not politically involved into any competition scheme. The only competition must be the ranking value of the educational quality among others.

i am going to carry out a running project and I am particularly interested in using PUMA athletic products. would they give a damn about my running plan as so to give me some apparent support?

Fairouz , your thoughts are shared by many on this thread. Great minds think alike.

@Yuling, have you tried asking for support from PUMA? They may be able to support you. Good luck!

Though the role of politicians in the education is very vital but these days politicians are hardly interested in making education better all are for their vote bank only. As far as educators, researchers and scientist are concerned, they do play major role in enhancinf the level of education in the country.

Dear Anuj Soni, welcome to this thread where nearly all the people seem to share the same views. At one time, a politician visited my school. My boys were interested in politics but he advised the boys that 'politics is dirty!'

As I have said, we must pray for them all.

@Patrick et al., recently I heard that many Singaporeans are working in Silicon Valley. Now with the AEC etc. your politicians (and everybody's politicians) must Perform or many of the talented people will just quit? Most of us can work and live anywhere on this global village.

About 21 % of oxygen on our globe, supports life well my friends. Do you all think so?

Friends, do you realize that many of our threads are running in a parallel direction, similar direction? Ljubomir's, Kamal's, Abdalla's, Ahed's, Alex's, etc etc...mine...

Education involves the whole community and needs funds, and cannot be separated from politics.....

Hi Miranda

fully agree that education needs funds which tie it to politicians - except we argue for privately funded education. Now as long as we all call for education as the most valuable good we have in any case it should remain in the public domain and not left exclusively privatized. It's my impression that education being privatized quickly leads to unequality - it becomes a matter of financial resources by the ones educated, reputation of education institution counts more than the actual education. Looking critical at the current systems I'd consider a large number or private education institutions not being worth the fees they charge but they hae strong reputation (not stating names here). Now once students attended such an institution and develop into professionals they will have a positive attitude towards their 'home' instituion, alumni networks are powerful. Even if they are aware of educational qualitiy constraints of the institution - the network is more powerful and protects the image and reputation. That's one side effect of the networks resulting from the institutions, network power might outperform the actual content. Consequently educaton should be a public good which should be freed from networks to allow a fair and transparent quailty competition. Still this is pure theory since funders of public education are politicians who need to justify investment (public money spending) to the tax payer. This is of course best done with arguments like "world class education institute" etc. Unfortunately the competition is about the power of networks which determine the reputation of an institution even stronger than the underlying content and quality does. Let's look for a solution.

Miranda we cannot separate politics in education. We depend from them. We sought budget from them. They influence the curriculum too. Too bad there are plenty of bad politicians whom I can describe as: they do not conduct research on their own. They just depend from their researchers-advisers who will always tell them how to win more votes so that they can stay in their position longer. They pretend to sympathize with the people but they will also take more when they have a chance. Most politicians are rich because of their dirty works.

Researcher-educator is better than politician-educator.

@Dirk, Elmer, et al., since most of us are educators and researchers, it looks like we must work at the grass root level, trying and providing knowledge and scientific, moral values for our students. Perhaps we can't expect too much support from those in power. Let's get on with our work...

Thank you Miranda for this excellent thread, indeed as posted by Elmer " Researcher-educator is better than politician-educator."

For example 2 or 3 politicians are competing for a vote, each tries to have his/her supporters, the winner automatically isolates others' supporters and promotes his friends/fan/followers . People who are neutral are kept apart 'as they do not have any defender' and the sector turns into an arena at each electoral competition !!! how is becoming the education quality and human resources long term strategy for the country??? I think that education must be neutral from political competition..

@Fairouz, thanks very much for your comments. Nearly all the commentators on this thread agree with you, 'education must be neutral from political competition..'

Sorry for late response. All of us are all over the globe and limited by time zones and internet access (and absent-mindedness). Quite often, my mobile internet data doesn't move. It's FICKLE. So I have to wait for the next morning! Thanks again :))

I strongly disagree the involvement of politician in education. The roadmap of education should be done by educators or scientists

Hi, SP Koh, most of the commentators on this thread think that as well. Great minds think alike.

But friends, what do you think about this?

WHAT IF the politicians have been educators, teachers, lecturers, scientists or researchers? HOW would this change things?

For some reason once most people become politicians, they forget the lessons of their roots. Or maybe those who become politicians never learned the lessons in the first place. The major lesson that is NOT learned is empathy. People who become politicians seem to be unable to empathise with those less fortunate and less successful. They seem to forget that there are those who have not had the luck to be born with the attributes and circumstances that they have, so the decisions they make are tempered by a hardness of soul, and I suppose, since they are always looking to the next election, they are more conservative to ensure they don't offend the voters by taking risks in decisions.

The policy of education must be sketched by educators to the politicians and then the politicians will discuss it with educators to finalize the plan.The educators should in their turn must ask and collect opinions and ideas from scientists and researchers to go in deep to reflect these ideas into real life.

Thank you Miranda and all colleagues who share my thoughts.

Miranda you say : "WHAT IF the politicians have been educators, teachers, lecturers, scientists or researchers? HOW would this change things?". Sure that among politicians or their advisers there are educators, teachers,...., researchers. the problem is not about the skills of those competing or following or advising them, the problem is about a crucial question which is: ' the POWER', how obtaining it, use it, and keep it as long as possible; for that issue another question arises how human could be able to draw tools, methods, strategies (good or bad) against others or against their self ego for power ship ???

Imposed power linked to social dominance is not more than animal instinct. Smart people that have intellectual or physical power will not always use it, e.g. they may do better than students but are not willing to show it, for instance to give students the time to learn with trial and error.

@Mark, Fairouz, et al., thanks for your views. I have been trying to think how many politicians who were not corrupt. I can count 2 so far: Mandela and Wilberforce.

Wilberforce is very interesting, an evangelical Christian who never lost a single election. Fought to abolish slavery. Just 1 man in parliament can achieve so much, without having to be imprisoned. But Mandela, also a Christian, was imprisoned many years for his ideals.

But I must stop rambling, please post concerning the clean politicians you know:)

@Marcel, thanks for your views. You are one of our smart RG friends :)

Miranda, in my country who suffered from 132 years of colonialism, there is a long list of politicians 'from different religions' who battle for the freedom and development of their society, do not run for any power ship interests, some of them died under colonial administration or under their peers from independence's governments. So clean politicians are very few in the world, when ideals are forgotten

Thanks Fairouz, C. Lewis. Yes, no one is infallible.

In church, one of my pastors was imprisoned 325 days under the ISA (Internal Security Act), then released. This happened some years back. But he advised us that there's nothing wrong with politics, in and of itself. Many of our Bible study sessions focused on discussing such things (what does the Bible say about it)....will be back when I can. Keep posting when you have ideas to add. Thanks Everyone :)

Dear Miranda, dear all,

In Germany (a representative democracy*) the scientific community's common understanding is that researchers only suggest implementations and politicians decide if they follow those suggestions.

Unfortunately, comparing our educational system and educational research, the government doesn't seem to act based on the scientific community's suggestions. No, they really don't implement frequently confirmed and crucial findings.

Regarding the question "What if the politicians have been educators, teachers, lecturers, scientists or researchers?", I am afraid no reassuring examples come to mind. Just recently a German states' politician and former educational researcher published a new educational reform not addressing any crucial concerns if the states' educational system but reducing the universities in dependency. The party's influence and values seem to have the priority.

*Although some philosophers argue that it's actually a status quo oriented leadership system with similar consequences to authoritarianism.

What are the education backgrounds of ministers? Is there a relationship between political responsibilities and education certificates required in professional environments? I don't think so, as already explained before. Communication skills are apparently the most important criteria be be democratically elected by citizens = non-specialists.

Hi all,

following the different contributions may be a new running scheme from society and governments is needed. under dictatorial shape people are not happy, under democracies even in old ones people are not happy, under archaic model people are not happy too. So if vote become a race from clans or lobbying interests which push a big fraction of populations to ignore it, and societal or political ideals are not well identified or recognized, in that case what is the meaning of politics and politicians society's needs 'when many of them are corrupt, robber' and most of them are running for sponsors and obviously working for them'.

Thanks friends for your views. Great views: Patrick, actually religious values are internalized and become intrinsic motivation for some of us, for me :))

@C. Lewis, Patrick: thanks. Fairouz, you say, ' 'when many of them are corrupt, robber' and most of them are running for sponsors and obviously working for them'. Many friends on this thread also prefer that Education is not controlled by politicians.

@Fabian, et al.: Thank you. It is a great loss when this occurs: 'Unfortunately, comparing our educational system and educational research, the government doesn't seem to act based on the scientific community's suggestions.' Really a misfortune :((

Thanks all of You!

EXPERIENCED educators should be consulted more as to what works in education and in designing policies. It is amazing to me that politicians set policies for education that have never been teachers. They're decisions are made on the thoughts of only one or two previous educators that have been out of education so long and into politics that they have forgotten what its like and what actually works. Politicians need to get out of education and allow teachers to be more influential in educational policies and procedures. Education should follow more of a business model where teachers function as CEOs, department heads, managers and employees. Follow a SUCCESSFUL business model where the education of our students is the product/service that needs to be refined and our students serviced as our customers toward their success, and when the company (educational districts) aren't successful, then additional training and even position replacement should be considered toward success of the goal of the educational business success.

You are right, John,

"it's amazing to me that politicians set policies for education that have never been teachers"Wonderful words! I think, that politicians couldn't be teachers, cause it's extremely hard work, besides the salary of teachers is almost free.On the other hand, politicians could be C-students, that's why they have phobia to teachers and education.

I agree with your lines of thoughts. Now also consider the widespread attempts to develop performance indicators and related salary schemes for teachers. Basically a good thing but the small details for such schemes remain: how to allocate the success fo students to individual teachers? It's clear for everyone that an individual teacher has a significant influence on the students achievements but there is also the overall learning climate in the school students attend. Now how to consider this in evaluations. Politicans want evaluations and indicators, we can't change that thinking.

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/52529.html

Dear Dirk, you are right. We, humanists, should support our educators, scientists, cultural workers, protecting them from so called "accounting approach"(to our greatest E.Yamburg). We can't admit intellectual and social inequality, the way on intellectual "foliation" of society, on account of differentiation of accessibility of education, so that foliation of society on the level of education shouldn't tend to become hereditary. To Nietzsche,"There those education is hateful,which is aimed at beyond money and profit. All the efforts of our present educators are directed to create either a scientist, or an official, or a getter. In other words, a school must prepare only successful people. Everything, which is made unselfish (culture itself is unselfish, "not for what" doing) is waste, because it's impossible to calculate, measure, register in data clarification form". To our greatest D.S.Likhachov, "Moral foundation is the main thing, which defines the vitality of society- economical, political, creative. Without moral foundation the laws of economy and state are not operated, the decrees are not realized, it's impossible to stop corruption, bribery, cheating of all kinds."

@John, Irina, Dirk: thanks.

I agree that 'EXPERIENCED educators should be consulted more as to what works in education and in designing policies. It is amazing to me that politicians set policies for education that have never been teachers.'

But some commentators have expressed that when people become politicians, they change.

@Dirk: As you say, 'an individual teacher has a significant influence on the students achievements'. Perhaps that is the best we CAN do.

Dear Irina, I agree to what Likhachov has said, "Moral foundation is the main thing, which defines the vitality of society- economical, political, creative. Without moral foundation the laws of economy and state are not operated, the decrees are not realized, it's impossible to stop corruption, bribery, cheating of all kinds."

We just have to go on practising what is good, honest and true :)

In my opinion the rol of these persons is very important in society if there was a link among them. The actions of one of these persons sustain the next step for the rest of them.That is the ideal rol in a country. Unfortunately in my country (Mexico) there is no such link among these rols. Politicians do not have a clear goal about education, and therefore the national eduactional goals are confussing. Yet more, there is no vinculation among researchers, scientisists and educators. There is a professional isolation in a field that is so important for human development. I speak in general, I can not deny that there are some isoleted efforts to improve this condtition but I am afraid is going to take a long time, tough.

Religion and/or particular (cultural) moral foundations should not be the guiding principles of anyone hoping to move toward the dream of an open global education. In fact, these things are divisive. The only moral foundation necessary is openness to other points of view, a willingness to reflect on one's own socialized biases, and the critical thinking to investigate the lies heaped upon us daily by the powers that be. Education is not a business, or it should not be. It is about learning, about awakening, about expanding our minds to include the viewpoints of others or at least to accept their difference. Intolerance should not be tolerated, and that is why politicians and religious leaders should be the last people we ask when we wonder, "How shall we educate our children?"

@Hector, thanks. You say, 'Politicians do not have a clear goal about education, and therefore the national eduactional goals are confussing'. Did the politicians not ask the educators? How can they form a caring govt that cares for the education of the citizens?

@Gregory, thanks. Many commentators on this thread have expressed similar views.

As Andras has said, 'A good politician or a good political intention or trend can help to increase enormously the efficiency of education. Bad or ignorant politicians can easily destroy the work of many educators...'

Hi,

i'm thinking on the real role of politicians into a society where its organization is more professional related. I mean each segment of the organizational framework is run by people who are skilled in the related field, health is organized by physicians, biologists..etc, agriculture by agronomists, chemists, etc.., education by educators and teachers, economy by businessmen/women, economists, financials,etc.., military by soldiers, lawyers and others, security by lawyers, judges, police and related, industry, transport and construction by engineers, businessmen/women, technicians, researchers..etc... the same for the fields that i haven't cited from humanities, culture and art and others. So as each branch could be controlled,organized and run by its professionals according the standards of the profession, so a recognized from his/her pairs could do the job of any politician in the field, where is the need of politicians in that case. A good recognized physician could do the job of a minister of health, a good teacher/academician/educator recognized by his pairs could do the same for the education branch, the same for financial, agriculture, art, industry, military, security, etc..;branches. This scheme must works under a democratic model, with an open competition between the candidates of the field. All controlled by a national elected Parliament, the prime ministry or the presidency have to do the job of regulation.

I think that the role of politicians (with real degrees from political studies) must be confined into parliament.

@Miranda. Yes, our national leader in education is a lawyer who has been working as a politician. The ideal persons do not take the ideal jobs. And they don no take the comments about education of education professionals. Three days ago a paper in La Jornada, called the atention to the not taken opinions of 40 educators in Mexico for the national education goals.

Thanks @Hector and Fairouz, Marcel, Irina, Ljubomir et al.

This is a good idea, 'A good recognized physician could do the job of a minister of health, a good teacher/academician/educator recognized by his pairs could do the same for the education branch, the same for financial, agriculture, art, industry, military, security, etc..;branches. This scheme must works under a democratic model, with an open competition...the role of politicians (with real degrees from political studies) must be confined into parliament.' Thanks again :)

@Patrick et al.,

That's a good point, 'The trouble is that a good physician may be a good physician but be a lousy minister. A good teacher may be a good teacher but may not be a good principal. '

@Patrick, Miranda et al., a good teacher, physician, etc... who want ruling and running a ministry or any management role must be able to do it i.e he/she must have the personality and skills for the job in term of administration, control, communication, feed backs, strategy, listening,etc... i think that people who are asked to elect one of their pairs for running their sector must focus on his/her ability to do the job not only on his/her technical and professional skills!!