It seems that most of us would prefer a politics based more on values and principles, not only on interests.
The point is: Is it possible to get this? How?
What should be those values or principles?
Indeed, politicians' actions are from the perspective of their inner skewed interests and desires as to what they want to gain but with coated principles and values for public consumption. But right politics requires right interests which then promote and strengthen principles and values people should hold that promotes and benefits society, as politics is an affair of collective governance and social well being in which interests of individual citizens is incorporated in the very vision of values and principles stipulated.
I do not think politics need special treatment!!! This is in the mindset!!! Corrected / improved individual's attitude, ethics, values and principles matter much to the society and politics is everywhere at home, in one's vicinity and neighborhoods.
Dear Jose,
Wow. Interesting question. Today politics is a place for people, who do not have values and principles and educated minds do not like to take part in it due to its muddy grounds. However, there were few gems in politics of each and every country in it's history.
Very recently, I was lucky to read the quotes of our spiritual guru on politics and democracy. He says, today managing a family is a difficult task for an individual despite having a reasonable education, income and relationships around. Managing a company is still more difficult and needs much more virtues, skills, knowledge, expertise and strong will power to succeed. In such circumstances, managing a country through political protocols is the highest difficult thing as it requires very strong will with courage, attitude, determination, service mentality, leadership, empathy, understanding, sacrifice, adjustability, an open heart to accept criticism and so on.
While narrating further, he says, not everyone can do this (politics) and in order to do this (politics) with VALUES AND PRINCIPLES, he need to be really good in many areas as mentioned above and be supported and surrounded by people of that caliber. This is how in OLDEN DAYS (UNDER KING'S RULE), Kings were chosen and such kings were guided by GURU's who are good in teaching the king on values and principles.
But in today's context, in the name of democracy, a man who is wealthy enough to spend money and contest, can win and will try to collect back the money, what he spent on politics once he is in power.
Thus, VALUES & PRINCIPLES are getting DISTANT to POLITICS to a greater extent in many parts of the world.
In my opinion, the values and principles that every politician should have are as follows:-
1. Heart to serve the people. (Like Mother Teresa)
2. Developing the nation in the right path. (Not at some body's cost). (Like Mahatma Gandhi)
3. No selfish attitude.(Like Nelson Mandela)
4. Leadership with humbleness and dedication (Like Dr. Abdul Kalam).
5. High personal integrity. (Like Lee Kwan Yu)
6. A change agent (Like Mahathir Mohamad)
7. A visionary (Like Narendra Modi)
and so on.
As you can see from the above, despite a lot of politicians fail to make a single page in the political history, there are many as above, have succeeded in living for many years in the hearts of the people and in the books.
Guess, this input helps.
Best Regards.
Sekar Gopal.
Dear Jose,
Wow. Interesting question. Today politics is a place for people, who do not have values and principles and educated minds do not like to take part in it due to its muddy grounds. However, there were few gems in politics of each and every country in it's history.
Very recently, I was lucky to read the quotes of our spiritual guru on politics and democracy. He says, today managing a family is a difficult task for an individual despite having a reasonable education, income and relationships around. Managing a company is still more difficult and needs much more virtues, skills, knowledge, expertise and strong will power to succeed. In such circumstances, managing a country through political protocols is the highest difficult thing as it requires very strong will with courage, attitude, determination, service mentality, leadership, empathy, understanding, sacrifice, adjustability, an open heart to accept criticism and so on.
While narrating further, he says, not everyone can do this (politics) and in order to do this (politics) with VALUES AND PRINCIPLES, he need to be really good in many areas as mentioned above and be supported and surrounded by people of that caliber. This is how in OLDEN DAYS (UNDER KING'S RULE), Kings were chosen and such kings were guided by GURU's who are good in teaching the king on values and principles.
But in today's context, in the name of democracy, a man who is wealthy enough to spend money and contest, can win and will try to collect back the money, what he spent on politics once he is in power.
Thus, VALUES & PRINCIPLES are getting DISTANT to POLITICS to a greater extent in many parts of the world.
In my opinion, the values and principles that every politician should have are as follows:-
1. Heart to serve the people. (Like Mother Teresa)
2. Developing the nation in the right path. (Not at some body's cost). (Like Mahatma Gandhi)
3. No selfish attitude.(Like Nelson Mandela)
4. Leadership with humbleness and dedication (Like Dr. Abdul Kalam).
5. High personal integrity. (Like Lee Kwan Yu)
6. A change agent (Like Mahathir Mohamad)
7. A visionary (Like Narendra Modi)
and so on.
As you can see from the above, despite a lot of politicians fail to make a single page in the political history, there are many as above, have succeeded in living for many years in the hearts of the people and in the books.
Guess, this input helps.
Best Regards.
Sekar Gopal.
Dear Jose,
Wow. Interesting question. Today politics is a place for people, who do not have values and principles and educated minds do not like to take part in it due to its muddy grounds. However, there were few gems in politics of each and every country in it's history.
Very recently, I was lucky to read the quotes of our spiritual guru on politics and democracy. He says, today managing a family is a difficult task for an individual despite having a reasonable education, income and relationships around. Managing a company is still more difficult and needs much more virtues, skills, knowledge, expertise and strong will power to succeed. In such circumstances, managing a country through political protocols is the highest difficult thing as it requires very strong will with courage, attitude, determination, service mentality, leadership, empathy, understanding, sacrifice, adjustability, an open heart to accept criticism and so on.
While narrating further, he says, not everyone can do this (politics) and in order to do this (politics) with VALUES AND PRINCIPLES, he need to be really good in many areas as mentioned above and be supported and surrounded by people of that caliber. This is how in OLDEN DAYS (UNDER KING'S RULE), Kings were chosen and such kings were guided by GURU's who are good in teaching the king on values and principles.
But in today's context, in the name of democracy, a man who is wealthy enough to spend money and contest, can win and will try to collect back the money, what he spent on politics once he is in power.
Thus, VALUES & PRINCIPLES are getting DISTANT to POLITICS to a greater extent in many parts of the world.
In my opinion, the values and principles that every politician should have are as follows:-
1. Heart to serve the people. (Like Mother Teresa)
2. Developing the nation in the right path. (Not at some body's cost). (Like Mahatma Gandhi)
3. No selfish attitude.(Like Nelson Mandela)
4. Leadership with humbleness and dedication (Like Dr. Abdul Kalam).
5. High personal integrity. (Like Lee Kwan Yu)
6. A change agent (Like Mahathir Mohamad)
7. A visionary (Like Narendra Modi)
and so on.
As you can see from the above, despite a lot of politicians fail to make a single page in the political history, there are many as above, have succeeded in living for many years in the hearts of the people and in the books.
Guess, this input helps.
Best Regards.
Sekar Gopal.
Neither values not principles do find importance, they pop up as gimmicks in Indian context. There are various pressure within each political party to offer good governance and a common eye for all. When certain people in power and caught in the wirl, how do they proceed and establish.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
To my knowledge that values or principles would/ could not play a bigger role in politics in the whole world, as far as I know. The politics is a dirty business, almost all politicians use the quotation:
"The end justifies the means"
---- Niccolo Machiavelli , from (book) The Prince
Dear José,
Dear All,
At first I thought you asked a poetic question. My first feeling seems to be right. I am afraid, answers with about almost 100% likelihood will converge. Regarding my direct experiences on the politicians’ relationship to human or ethical values is similar to those other participants indicated sooner: these people (politicians) have no innate values and their party and personnel interests always overwrite their vestigial principles. However, they are real artists in deceiving voters/citizens.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
These are some/ main Political Principles/ Values
- "Democracy — A free society depends on a free media and organizes civic, social, and economic life using the principles of participatory democracy arising from direct action and public accountability. Those affected by a decision have an opportunity to participate in that decision.
- Equality — All people are welcomed as part of a free society. All people are equal and all labor is valued equally.
- Diversity — All people in a free society are different, and space for their difference is paramount to their equality.
- Security — Every human in a free society has secure access to meet their basic needs of food, shelter, health care, information, education, and transportation.
- Creativity — A free society values culture, art, and leisure as fundamental needs. Every person has the right to their own culture and to practice creative expression.
- Self-Determination — A free society is decentralized and all localities are autonomous and self-determined so long as they do not infringe upon the other basic principles of a free society.
- Interdependence — Communities in a free society are dependent on one another through mutual aid and exchange.
- Justice — All people have the right to be free from coercion, threat, and violence. A justice system should reside in the community it affects, seek resolution rather than revenge, and should work towards abolition of authoritarian prisons and jails.
- Peace — A free society uses conflict as an opportunity to learn from divergent views, opinions and experiences, with the goal of crafting agreements and taking actions that affirm the humanity and basic rights of all parties.
- Ecology — Humans live in balance with, and are part of, the natural world. A free society recognizes the right to clean water, clean air and food free of industrial toxins and genetic engineering.
- Economy — In a free society the means of production should be placed in the hands of the people, empowering communities to organize meaningful employment, and provide a responsible and sustainable standard of living which tries to meet the needs of all people."
I would like from our RG friends to mention/name any organization/ country/ state that apply all above Principles/ Values
https://help.riseup.net/en/about-us/politics
VALUES AND PRINCIPLES should play a bigger role in the ADMINISTRATION of a country. How many of our politicians have been honest and administered justice to all?
How many of our politicians have put the PEOPLE FIRST? (Here in JOHOR state, is a prince, not a politician who puts people first. "Johor and Johor Darul Ta’azim (JDT) will "always" come first for Johor crown prince Tunku Ismail Sultan Ibrahim". SUCH LEADERS ARE THE HOPE OF ANY NATION.)
A civilized society is a society which enables individual to behave as humans, meaning to exercise what make humans a unique specy. The right and capability to think, to act on nature in order to fullfil his goals, notably by innovation and manufacturing, and to cooperate with other individuals in order to better fullfill his own goals. These individual goals, whatever they are, are good as long as their purpose is to accruage what makes us humans beings. The purpose of the professional, be it a farmer who grows his crop, an engineer who builds bridges, a worker in manufacturing, an artist, a businessman who develops new products and markets, is at first to live fully as a man by applying his capabilities and competences for himself, so for his own interest. So there is nothing wrong in individual interests, and any society which negates the right of an individual to his own interest is not civilized. The issue is then to conciliate the interest of different individuals : free markets are the best way to do it. We trade goods, ideas, labor, between us according to the value that others accept to acknowledge. The standard to measure the value of the personal interests is given by the market, and embodied in its monetary equivalent. Money and property are the best way to make individuals free to look for their own interests while cooperating with others. And the first role of government is to protect these rights, against cheaters and external threats.
Principles, beyond these above, rely for their implementation on some bodies assumed to represent "collective interests", but the experience shows that these representatives have no value to claim other than their discourse and promises, and cannot offer more than discourses and promises.
However there is a class of professionals which is useful : politicians.The more sophisticated a society, the more complex the conflicts of interests become, and some people must play the useful role to smooth out the problems. The role of the politician is not to find solutions (experts are there for that) or to tell what is good or bad, their role is to make possible what is necessary, by making clear the stakes, by explaining the solutions, and by pushing compromises between conflicting interests. So politicians are useful. And as in any profession there are good and bad politicians. But beware of the politician who asks for your sacrifice for a "greater good", whatever its name.
It depends on the definition of "value".
According to "universal values" of S. H. Schwartz,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_value
we have next "values", text in italics from wikipedia:
Politicians share in maximum the values#1, 3, 9.
We'd probably want to share other, but that's the disappointing reality...
Dear Hazim Hashim Tahir,
You asked about 'any organization/ country/ state that apply all above Principles/ Values'. I cannot vouch for every single value in your list, but I believe that the newly elected leader of the UK's main opposition party [Labour] stands for all that is on your list - both for the UK and broadly across the world. He was backed by hundreds of thousands voting for him on that basis.
One problem is that many Labour MPs are said not to support his values and may not vote in favour of his views. If so, the Conservative government in favour of the traditional hierarchy will win all votes.
Margaret,
According to your standard ("He was backed by hundreds of thousands") you should add to your list of happy countries : Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Bielorussia, and in the past 1932 Germany, states which held more or less free elections, and if you are not too choosy, Kazaksthan, and even North Korea. Their leaders are full of promises to their people, and, as you shoud expect, full of threats against the villains who oppose the will of the majority and the good of the people.
The only real “values” that are crucial in politics today is hypocrisy, corruption, and low IQ. People love these personalities because they could be identified to this image easily. This image links to a media visibilty - crucial for the society . If, you have these three properties you can become a very good politician.
To Vassilis,
I do not see your answer as helpful...Whatever you believe elections are free in France. If you are not satisfied you can apply, or at least enter in a political party, or give some of your time for what causes you believe in. You cannot in the same time cry on the sorry state of your country, and stay out. In democratic countries political parties are machines whose purpose is to define common objectives, and implement them through the election of their representatives. There are good and bad political parties, but at least we have the great priviledge to have the choice. The other solution is what we see in Cuba, North Korea or Syria. When people abdicate their right to choose their government, this is rarely the best who come to fill the void. The first culprits in the hardships of the Afghan or Syrian people are those in these countries who "feel" that nothing was worth to fight for, that all politicians were the same, and stay quiet and passive. They got what they desserve, and I do not feel sorry for them, claiming now that we fight their fight, or support their burden. Political asylum has been conceived to protect the fighters, not the cowards.
Dear all
The governing party of our country advances the Core values for our socialistic state:
富强prosperous and strong、民主democracy、文明civilization、和谐 harmony，自由freedom、平等equality、公正just、法治rule of law，爱国being patriotic、敬业Respecting and devoting to work、诚信credibility and integrity、友善be friendly.
Dear Chun,
A vibrant example of a system ruled by "principles" and "values". How do you write "joke" in mandarin ?
Jean Claude, I take your point, but 'the thinking masses' here [let us trust that they are very unlike your comparison in 1930s' Germany] are trusting in this being a 'good' man, one who is not by nature a tyrant, but a pacifist. Allow us here to hold onto our ideals - those listed by Hazim Hashim Tahir - in the face of aggressive materialism.
The question here, rather, is whether Corbyn can be allowed by others including the would-be all-powerful media to hold onto his ideals, his principles, now that he has been elected, so unexpectedly, as a political leader.
Dear Jean,
The distance between free elections and democracy is enormous. If, the reality is that more than 30% of French support the National Front party then there is a real problem in Europe. There is a real problem because in the North of Europe these numbers represent the realiry. So, dear Jean the values "hypocrisy, corruption, and low IQ" are as in the USA the prototype of a political glory. If, meantime politicians can get money from North Africa through diamonds or in cash, that would be great. The glory will be a real success. Then the Democracy can use the airforce to protect the "Democratic Values" on Earth. These are the real values in politics.
To H.Kissinger,"Some 90% politicians spoil the reputation of all other politicians".I think,the main principle is multipolarity.The main task is not becoming to "a failed state"(to avoid absorption by the developed countries; sovereignty; non-interference;right to solve own problems without pressure and dictation from the outside etc)."Diplomacy is an art to restrain force"Kissinger.
Vassilis,
If you are so afraid of what happens in France, and if political action is not for you, be ready with your suitcases and mobile phone to emigrate to a country which is more suitable to your tastes. But if Europe and USA do not please you, either look for North Korea or the planet mars. And stop crying.
By the way I do not understand your three last sentences. Present arguments.
Very Good Question.
Most (if not all) of the politicians of today are products of a school of politics that came originally from the ideas of Niccolò Machiavelli with "The Prince" as the main textbook. They hold the destructive notion that the world is "dirty" with no place for values or principles and thus it ought to be run with "dirty" politics in which interests rule the scene without intervention of ethics except for superficial public consumption. Any honest man/woman who gets involved with politics & calls for morals or honesty will be subjected to a barrage of criticism as (being unrealistic or, jokingly, of belonging to a future age but not this one).
The great German politician, Otto von Bismarck, once said : “Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”. I think it is feasible or attainable to see a new set of ethical politicians who are not a breed of the Machiavellian school but this has to occur in a revolutionary way (i.e. when political positions are not inherited due to public resolute refusal).
It seems to me that most of the people in these posts believe that politics is dirty and politicians are corrupt. This can be understood when one looks at their country of origin, but this justifies the common complacency at doing nothing, only to expect that one day, will come the savior with the right principles, values and virtues. After all a tenure in a university or a position in an administration help to see the time passing, and this is all the more valuable if this tenure or position is in one of the countries (say Europe or the USA) which still hold politics for good.
As for Bismark, he was a great statesman, but it would be a bit of a stretch to look at him as the expected savior of democracy. Unless one regrets Saddam Hussein. Why always look for the strong man ? Because you feel weak.
Dear @Jose, I was one of the founders of the first opposition party in Serbia, after monism phase of communism/socialism. When I have observed many irregularities in my Democratic Party, I have required that principles should be respected, that values are the must. We have founded a party to fight against communist just for such reasons.
After a year later, I have left Democratic Party (February 26, 1991). At that time, I was told to go to church instead of political party if I want principles, justice and values!!!and it will
So, my conclusion is that politics is dirty, and it will always be. I have many examples for such claim!
Dear Jean,
I do not know your scientific background but it seems that you do not like the reality. Never the less, you have just confirmed what I have said and this is that the real values of modern politics in Europe is "hypocrisy, corruption, and low IQ" and this will be re-confirmed in the coming elections.
You are not in the early 1940!! so to prepare suitcases!! Europe is my country and Europe is a Greek invention and is established on the Greek civilization. You have been educated to use the gold mines and the treasure of colonization and to collaborate with the fascism so to get a comfortable life. It takes time and education to understand and feel what is really Democracy.
Vassilis,
Calling names is no argument. And I would not risk to say anything about your background. I do not see in my posts where "I do not like reality", it seems to me that I see the world, and notably politics, as it is, as something which can be improved and has its utility, and certainly not in the somber way that you see it "hypocrisy, corruption, and low IQ". As for the rest (1940, gold mines,...) this is indeed weak, very weak.
Dear Jean,
I am not interested to continue this discussion with you – this is not scientific. I am forced to answer because you have talked about suitcases!!
Who are you? And who gives you the right to indicate what a person should do in his life because he criticizes the current corrupted system. Do you think that this is scientific discussion? or just a fascism decoration of current political evolution in Europe?
I said that current politics in Europe is characterized by "hypocrisy, corruption, and low IQ" and this is a reality. France closed the borders to Syrian refugees, a current example of extreme hypocrisy. Corruption, see VW and so many other examples – see AirFrance – workers do not have even the right to protest! Low IQ, this is the reality. Politicians think that we are idiots and in that effort the system uses scientists – as you are- and the media. I have the impression that Europe is under a Nicolae Ceaușescu political leadership!
Please, prepare your suitcases for a trip to Syria or Palestine or Africa to testify by yourself that the human being is suffering without “boulot, dodo and croissant”!
Vassili,
I do not see any argument in what you say, only judgments. As many on this thread you have leftist opinions, this is our rigth, that I do not contest. But naming "hypocrisy, corruption, and low IQ" what you do not like is not an argument, even less the beginning of a proof. "France closed the borders to Syrian refugees, a current example of extreme hypocrisy.". First this is false : France has not closed its borders to syrian refugees, second : what hypochrisy ? As for myself I said clearly that I do not care about these refugees, that for their most part they got what they desserve, and unfortunately, France and Europe has not closed its border. Can one be clearer ? As your last sentence this is a total nonsense in regard to what I said. And of course, you were "upvoted" by the politically correct, dogooders, on this site, waiting anxiously for the Supremo (Tsipras perhaps ?) who will deliver them of their unfair state of life.
Myself I will continue as always, working on my scientific topics, and giving some time and money to the political party of my choice. Enjoying the fact that we are not under the boot of the enlighted dogooders.
Two major principles are of great relevance at this moment in the political scene in my country: the welcome of migrants and the protection of cultural heritages.
Yes, values or principles can play a bigger role in our politics in long run.
Specifically honesty, integrity, and commitment are very important values those can make the politics better.
Democracy has become the moral code for the world to live a happiness & peace .We all know that democracy is the government of people,By the people,& for the people.
It means it is the rule of people who elects the government & for this election ,partly politics always work & after the elected the government they have to see the interest of the voters & also the promises given to them prior to the election.
Politician must move on the road of Honesty ,Integrity ,& Commitment while following the said principles they should not move from their chosen path .If the politician are honest & sincere they will follow their target for the welfare of the people without fear & favor .If these honest wordings remain in the mind of the politician & rulers they can certainly establish the welfare state of any democratic country in any of part of world.
Unfortunately it has been said the politics is a dirty game & also been quoted that ''POWER CORRUPT POWER ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY ''. It is such politician & rulers in their greed of power & to maintain their standing such rulers can go out of the way & make a democracy a mockery .
All destructions of political character assignation is becoming an advanced art, all supposedly unquestioned. Moralism can be defined as a false, fake, or hypocritical self-promotional 'morality.' generally designed to put down, intimidate, or terrorise rather than be helpful to others
As I said many times before, politics and politicians are necessary and useful, particulary in a democracy, as imperfect it could be. You can always claim for principles, words are cheap and commitments commit only those who believe them. The issue, specially on a site for a scientific community, is can we be more efficient in dealing with politics, and what could we do, as scientists ?
One endeavour that I find interesting is a book "physics for future presidents" by Richard Muller (Norton) published in 2008. Muller listed 25 topics, ranging from terrorist nukes to global warming, which involve a good deal of technical competence, but are at one time or another at the agenda of a US president. The goal is not to offer solutions, the decision should remain to the man who has been elected to do it, but to explain what are the stakes, the good and bad answers and to dispel usual non sense. This could be achieved in many domains. Whatever imperfect, the conferences on the climate go in the same way : scientists should involve themselves in the issues which concern the society, with their own competences, not, as it is done (notably in my country) by adding their name to a long list of protesters for some cause, but in commiting their name and their expertise to reports with the purpose to enlightend the public about real issues. Of course such reports are controversial, but scientists are used to controverse, and this is the confrontation of scientifically motivated points of view which help to educate the large public. For instance could we have some review on demographic issues (how many people can Earth support ?), space (what does mean the conquest of space by man, and could we really do it ?), nuclear energy (in spite of all the money spent on particle physics nuclear reactors work on the same principles which were invented 60 years ago), artificial intelligence,... The goal would be, not to have a fancy book written by some well connected star scientist, but a serious book written by honest (yes, for some who claim honesty from politicians, can a scientist be honest and candid ?) scientists, who offer their time and competences to the society in order to elevate the knowledge of the people who will take decisions, even the simple one to vote for politician.
I think one of the interesting questions that emerge from this discussion is:
Can interests exist without values?
Why individual A chooses a job in which he earns less money but has more independence and individual B prefers money over independence?
I'm sure economists and social scientists will disagree about the nature of utility functions.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
See what Chris Christie said about his principles:
"I don't compromise my principles for politics."
----- Chris Christie
To José,
This is an interesting question, which has an answer when one considers the two levels : the individual, the society.
At the strict level of the individual, the interest and the values are the same : a man can find his own interest in sleeping, jogging, making love, doing music, writing, even doing some scientific research, or in any kind of job in which he finds his accomplisment, whatever it is. There is no standard to evaluate these interests. The specificity of the man, as a specy, is that he can think and act on his environment to satisfy his needs, and actually this is a necessity (when we leave the state of hunter-gatherers). So, for most of the people, the implementation of their creative capabilities (in the meaning that they change something) is the most desirable interest. Indeed we are proud when we have achieved something, even if this just attend to the garden "good job!".
At the level of the society this is another story. Because of the division of work, to survive men must trade what they have, meaning what they can produce for others. So standards appear. Even in societies which have slavery a slave has a price. And money is the vehicle which permits to trade many different kinds of interests and capabilities. In a free market the price is the measure of the value of our interests and capabilities for the others. Economists in the XIX° century thought that the price of anything was, eventually, the cost to produce it, and in the case of labor, the cost of the basic needs of the worker. From there Marx developped his theory. But it is clear, and acknowledged by the economists, that this view is simplistic and not grounded, even less so if the market is not free.
As for the "utility functions" used in Economics we have more or less the same dicotomy. In Theoretical Economics many studies have been done to understand and model the behavior of individuals, but the results and controversial and not conclusive. What is more practical and is currently done is the modelling of the agregated demand, for specific markets or the whole of the economy, by products and services and with the effect of prices. But, even if they refer to an "homo oeconomicus", every economist knows that this is just a concept without no substancial support.
Dear @Jose, regarding your sub-question "Can interests exist without values?", I would say that person A who choose less money but gets more independence is freedom like person with ethical principles and values. Person B, according to your example, prefers money over independence. It does not exclude ethics, but such person likes money too much. That is not a value. Such persons may enter the field of conflict of interests where morality comes to stage!
Ordinary human beings are real treasure of Russia.They survive according to their own values- hard, but favourite- work for nothing, love, arts, church,nature...
Values and principles in politics are theoretically simple: justice, democracy, freedom, integrity, transparency,... Unfortunately, they are difficult to be really applied because politicians are always under pressure of multiple actors with contradictory interests.
Decision-makers in politics are compelled to conciliate these different interests in order to maintain political and social stability.
Values and interest are hardly conciliable in politics. The best politicians are those who succeed to create a viable cohabitation between values and interest.
Dear Prof. Dutailly:
Dear all
Thank you for your answer and the opportunity for an interesting discussion.
The scientific study of values is a fairly new and complex field. I add a link to a good introduction by one of the leading experts -the psychologist S. Schwartz-, whose theory and methodology is used by the European Social Survey (ESS) for its periodic studies.
At the individual level, values do not determine behaviors, attitudes and preferences, but certainly they influence them, specially when some values are relevant in the situation and central to the self. .
I think we should not confuse values with preferences. Values are highly abstract conceptions of good and bad, linked inextricably to affect. They transcend particular situations (honesty, for example), while preferences relate to more specific objects or situations.
Individual values are organized hierarchically. Their mutual relations are complementary or conflicting. In any situation, more than one value is relevant. Therefore, my behavior (or my preference) is the result of a trade-off among competing values
Prof. Jacic: money is associated with materialistic values: survival, security, power, wealth and the like. So also in this case we are talking about values .
At the social system level, perhaps the structure of values is different from the one we see at the individual level -we are not sure-, but there are many reasons to doubt that social values do not influence social interests.
Consider the specific case of employment in Japan (perhaps colleagues from Japan can correct or clarify what I say). Japanese values are at the base of lifetime employment. This defines the interests of Japanese firms in relation to employment in different ways to what happens in the West --even if they pay a cost (see NYT link).
We can generalize this to public policies and many opportunities and constraints that companies face. For example, Schwartz' cultural map shows that Sweden and Norway are high on egalitarian and harmony values , while the US is not. But the US is high on mastery values, which "encourage active self-assertion in order to master, direct, and change the natural and social environment to attain group or personal goals" (Schwartz definition). We can see the correlation between these different value systems and differences in many aspects of political and business life in these countries.
http://essedunet.nsd.uib.no/cms/topics/1/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/business/global/20zombie.html?_r=0
http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/WVSNewsShow.jsp?ID=192
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
See, what Mahatma Gandhi said about "values or principles"...
Please look at how these famous gentlemen correlated politics or politicians with values & principles:
1)Ernest Benn: "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."
2)H. L. Mencken: "Looking for an honest politician is like looking for an ethical burglar."
3)Mark Twain: "There is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress."
4)Thomas Sowell: "What is history but the story of how politicians have squandered the blood and treasure of the human race?"
5)Charles Peacock: "I'm a politician, and as a politician I have the prerogative to lie whenever I want."
6)Charles De Gaulle: "Since a politician never believes what he says, he is quite surprised to be taken at his word."
7)Ronald Reagan: "Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
8)Simon Carr: "Scratch the surface of an endemic problem -- famine, illness, poverty -- and you invariably find a politician at the source."
Perhaps 'the Golden Rule' in Christianity and other religions and philosophies would be a good starting-point.
Definitely. Values and ethics have bigger role in politics too as applicable in any other field. Politician must keep values and ideals. The absence of values and principles is the key factor for corruptions and scams.
Dear Jose,
Referring to your very interesting question - values and principles are very important, I can even say essential in politics. They show what is good and what is not, how to behave and what should be done - thus facilitate decision-making. Unfortunately, values and principles often lose out to interests of parties or individual politicians.
In my opinion, a fundamental value in the case of politicians should be their credibility. Unfortunately, people often choose as their representatives not those politicians who are credible but those who promise them the most.
So, maybe insufficient knowledge in society (eg. on the functioning of the economy) causes that it pays to be incredible for politicians?
Best wishes - Irena
When someone is elected specifically for their values and principles, they may not be fully prepared for the attacks that will be heading against them - and against their values and principles. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4nwf5eXD14&list=PLTYmWuFco1_1xD06DoY0BRnOX8mwBv0Vb&index=1
NB The commentator is becoming very well-known and respected in the UK - and is not as young as he looks.
Yesterday died a great man, a great politician, with a universally acclaimed success in his job : Helmut Schmidt. And, telling from his experience, he said "Beware of people who have visions, they should go to the doctor". He was the embodiement of a politician, making possible what is necessary, without all the discourses about values and principles. He said also "Honesty does not demand to say everything that we think, only to never tell something other than what we think".
I think, now a days, there is big value crisis in politics across world.
Politics need honesty and trusty politicians! Is it too much to achieve?
Dear Mario,
Some politicians are good, so the Governments are running.
In the UK, we who respect Jeremy Corbyn for his lifelong principles and ideals are trusting that [after his unforeseen election as a political leader] he can be allowed to hold onto his principles by the Press and others 'in power'. Many, both in and out of politics, do not understand the way of thinking and attack what they do not understand. For the rest of us, a politician still holding onto his values after 30 years in politics has given us hope and inspiration to hold to our own ideals.
Politics is an art of possibility. Politicians ,in current situation in world can not survive if they stick to values and principles. It is not possible to implement anything if they do not follow give and take.
This discussion is more and more surrealist.
On one hand, most participants tell their distrust of politicians, who seem to be concerned only with their own interests, meanwhile they should stick to some basic virtues and moral principles.
On the other hand, the same participants are supposed to be scientists, meaning people who do not contend themselves with discourses but strive to elaborate statements which can be checked through experiments. They should also know that any science is a difficult endeavour, which requires talent and a lot of hard work in learning what has been done by others in their domain.
So the same people :
1. Tell that all politicians are liars, but are ready to trust those of them who proclaim their will do the best, and give as proof of their reliability the fact that they have had the same strong beliefs, and proclaimed attachment to the highest virtues, for the longest time, even if they have not been able, and for good reasons, to put their ideas and competence at work. Conclusion : moral discourses are better than elaborate theories, constance in our own faith is better than proven experience.
2. Are proud of their competence and talent acquired by hard work, and learning from what has been proven true of false, but consider that the management of a complex society can be given to unproven leaders, with no experience, and without any regard for the proven results of the policies proposed by that these leaders, as long as they show a good moral standing. This time I am worry about the future of Science.
Personally, I do not believe that all politicians are liars. I believe that Man is inherently good. If each of us as individuals [politicians or non-politicians; inside or outside the media] could express better our values, surely the world would be a better place?
Values are expressed neither only nor mainly in discourses, but also --and mainly- in actions. Trying to live outside the universe of values is like trying to live outside of time: you can't. The supposed Machiavellian "amoralism" is a delusion. It simply means Power as supreme value. If only "interests" govern politics, why doesn't everybody kill their opponents?
Those who follow international affairs may be interested in the political earthquake that voters have produced these days in Argentina. The electoral shift already transforms the Latin American political landscape and will likely have further consequences for the region.
Argentina has since yesterday a new president, Mauricio Macri (56), the head of the centrist coalition of parties Cambiemos (Let’s Change). Macri, who was the mayor of the city of Buenos Aires, won the runoff election competing with the official candidate Daniel Scioli (Front for Victory). This closed an era of almost 25 years of little less than untroubled hegemony of Peronism, although this movement will still prevail in Congress. The now former president Cristina Kirchner served two consecutive terms. She was preceded by her husband, Néstor Kirchner, who died in 2010.
The first round election in October had produced another big shock, when the Let’s Change candidate María Eugenia Vidal (41) became against all odds the new governor of the main Argentine state, the Province of Buenos Aires, which represents 39% of the nation population and has been a Peronist stronghold since 1987.
All this shift came as a surprise to most observers at home and abroad, but it was something foreseeable to those of us who follow the deep trends of value change behind the ups and downs of the economy and the turns of public opinion. Political change is a complex process, not always well understood by the political actors themselves. It normally takes time. In 2001-2002, when Argentina suffered a historic economic collapse, people demanded political renewal. There are signs that the winds of renovation could have arrived more than a decade later.
Let’s Change’s core, the PRO party –the truly innovative branch of the coalition-- did not exist in 2001. By then, Macri –who will create the party-, was not even a politician. It was the devastating crisis in the end of that year what prompted him –among many others-- to enter the political field. He is the first democratically elected president in Argentine modern history who has not belonged to any of the traditional parties.
Among the main goals of his administration, Macri has emphasized the eradication of poverty –he announced an ambitious plan to develop the long neglected Northern region of the country, and the expansion of social programs--, as well as a series of measures to improve the quality of Argentine democracy and make government and politics work “to serve people, not the politicians”.
The latter includes respect for institutions –notably for the independence of the judiciary-, a political reform, a policy of dialogue –which is also a political necessity- and the fight against corruption.
The new government faces big challenges –and one of them is the fact that the coalition is not homogeneous-. In my view, the most difficult task is to succeed in putting an end to widespread corruption. This is also the key challenge, which conditions the potential achievements of most other goals. In countries such as Argentina, corruption in government, crony capitalism, stagnant development and low quality democracy are the four major components of a long self-sustained vicious cycle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauricio_Macri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_general_election,_2015
Political ethics (sometimes called political morality or public ethics) is the practice of making moral judgments about political action, and the study of that practice!
Ethics in Politics - Why it matters more than ever and How it can make a difference!
http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dft/files/political_ethics-revised_10-11.pdf
http://www.globethics.net/documents/4289936/13403252/FocusSeries_05_EthicsinPolitics_Benoit_text.pdf/bf28841e-216a-41ff-bca6-4ef9d4022d86
I think that the values and principles change when a citizen becomes a politician. This change is so fast that occurs that politicians themselves forget the values for which they became politicians. Rules are transformed and are often personal ineresów value. Often there is a lack of ethical behavior among politicians, but some argue that this is the policy.
To prevent this, the citizen must have a hard spine, which is often inconvenient for others.
That does not mean that there are no politicians who value and are true to the values and principles. Undoubtedly become valued only at the end of his years, or until death.
In the U.S., as with much of the world, those running for office make promises. Some of these truly mean what they say, but do not realize the realities of office: that it takes the cooperation of their fellow politicians to get things done. For this they are naive and ultimately unprepared for the responsibilities that they are seeking. Others seeking office know that they can not deliver on their promises. This is outright lying. In these things the people should be able to hold them to their promises. Sometimes the public does just this by recalling a politician. But that is a rare occurrence and seldom succeeds.
We also see politicians in the U.S. making claims against political opponents during elections that either are untrue or are stretching the truth to near the breaking point. These too need to be sanctioned for lying or telling misleading information. Get caught lying, lose X number of votes. It won't take long for them to get the message.
The public wants to feel secure, have food on the table, and know that their governmental officials are looking out for the public's best interests. This is hard to do when they are taking money or favors for big government contracts that divert money from project that benefit the public to projects that only benefit the upper crust and the power magnates.
Honesty, integrity, and dedication to public service and welfare are achievable, but only by holding enough politicians accountable that they finally get the picture and reform the institution of political service.
Neither of them seem to stand a chance against the most powerful factor...Money!!
Election is kind of an Evolutionary process where the fittest one (with maximum skin thickness) survives..
Playing politics with the long-term future of a country, will not get it right
http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/speech-archive.htm?speech=315
I think the two will Play a vital role but I also commitment and leadership by example will also go a long way
I may say both values and principles play equal roles. Though I think these days that both of these should include proper links to economy and financial matters rather than be stand alone issues.
I’d like to make a premise. In societies built with good technical and scientific resources, the areas of insecurity and malaise increases. This shows that techno-scientific rationality and forms of social organization are inadequate tools. Nor can be the foundation, purpose, meaning and ultimate value. This is not of a factual, but of an ethical order.
Then, values, ethical and moral principles should be based on a genuine understanding of man desires and aspirations. It requires the recognition of the role of ethical system, designed to enhance the personal axiological experience, authentic values and specific duties such as respect of the life and persons, his dignity, freedom and responsibility, justice, and truth.
Morality is to be justified in political terms on the grounds that the true development, perfection and well-being of the individual is impossible without personal morality as typically exhibited through the acquisition and practice of the moral virtues/values.
The tendency to relate the individual with the social (by arguing that they interact through cultural structures as well as phenomenally through social structure) provides a common epistemological basis, sufficient for unitary actor theories (the individual) to be migrated to the plural actor (the social collective). This presupposes that the individual and social are intimately connected, the social
composed of individuals in interaction mediated by cultural structures.
[Reference: Maurice Yolles, ‘Revisiting the political cybernetics of organisations’, Kybernetes, Vol. 34 No. 5, 2005]
Every where every politics parties come out with their agenda inspiring the voters with the message their value they are inspiring to carry out their responsibility with zeal & honesty for the welfare of the citizens .This all are the high words for inspiration & all the voters sincerely hope that the message they have placed before us may come out with the positive results .
However there are also chances that voters may get defeated for their purpose & aspiration & in this line we have to recall that POWER CORRUPTS POWER & ABSOLUTELY POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.''
But there are also readers who have a vision for carrying out the welfare of the people right from the rural ground .Such leaders & such politician come out with the silver lining in dark clouds.
This is my personal opinion
Prof. Luisa Isabel Rodríguez-Bello, from Universidad Pedagógica Experimental Libertador, Caracas (Venezuela), sent me her answer:
"Our politics, of course, deserves to be conducted by the highest values or principles. Nevertheless, it seems to be a great utopia. As fas as now, it is almost impossible, since we, citizens in the Western world, are educated to accept the way politicians conducted themselves in their jobs. They are permitted to cheat, to be liars and dishonest, to promise one things while in campaign, and to do another or the contrary or nothing while they are in power. From ancient Greeks to modern times, we usually accept that the politicians speech acts are oriented to persuade and convince a mayority, that will allow them to empower. But we are not educated to always react when they do not fulfill their promises . The education should promote both the obligation of the politics to make true promises and the obligation of the citizen to verify that promises are redeemed. What values should reign in politics: moral and ethical values, such as honesty, responsibility, trust, respect for the others and sense of self-respect."
Dear José Eduardo Jorge,
''Could values or principles play a bigger role in our politics?''
Our political system were created in the enlightment spirit of the exclusion of the religious which were the origin of all our values from the politics. This is one of the key foundation of modernity and our political system. Should we after a few hundred years of the political experiments question this separation? Is the secular experiment need to ve revised?
Dear Louis:
While religion established the core values of our societies in the past --and many of them are still relevant today-, I think that modernity (and post-modernity) has also brought its own value system.
In the political realm, the French Revolution established the values of liberty, equality and solidarity. Post-modern or post-industrial society tends to increase the relevance of those values and produces the emergence of others, like diversity and respect for others.
I see, at the societal level, a process of value change: Old values tend to be replaced by new ones --although there is no lack of contradictions, comings and goings, as it happens with any process of social change.
Don't you think that this is what creates a demand for a better politics?
José Eduardo Jorge,
While the values of Liberty, Equality and Solidarity have been the flag values in the proclamation of the modern secular societies, don't you think that all of them have been subsume under the truly driving value of modernity today: Money? It seems to me that the foundation of the Bank of England, the fondation of Money Value on Debt, or the Promess to Pay is truly the dominant value of modernity at this time. What Liberty without Money? What Equatlity without money? What Solidarity? If you do not pay what you borrow then you will be thrown on the street and maybe you can find a bit of solidarity at the food bank and at the shelter. Our age was a transition from a Gospel of Love towards a Gospel of Greed. The call towards more human values into the political process under the Gospel of Greed will be difficult under this new form of piety.
Dear Louis:
You are right, of course. "Success", "Achievement Motivation" (McClelland), "Wealth", "Power", are also values at the core of modernity. They are in conflict with some of those we are discussing --which are also part of the core of modernity. And this conflict is at the core of the political dynamics of our era.
Values and principles both are important , not only in politics , but equally important in day-to-day life of any individual . Probably , life becomes more at ease with such attitude where values and principles both are involved while taking any legitimate decision. And , if a politician practices these ,t hey are bound to be doubly effective in public life.
If values and principals are followed by politician then we may have a Utopian Country.
Indian politicians and values ...the two are controversial terms...and the both are against each other... and mother India is on OXYGEN provided by GOD only...
Prof. Kevin Stoda, Salalah College of Technology, Şalālah (Oman), sent me his answer:
"Principals and values play a big role in American politics, but enforcement and repercussions of not following rules and values is lacking. The abuse of the courts and Congress in impeaching Clinton in 1990s led to failure to impeach either W. Bush or Obama.
This lack of restraint is in so many corners of politics and money supports distorting it and reducing repercussions for bad values and bad behaviors."
Jose,
I agree wholeheartedly with Prof. Stoda. You might be familiar with porn magnate Larry Flint, who made it his mission in life to expose the political hypocrites in the United States. He took politicians who made names for themselves denigrating the immoral actions of other politicians and, through private detectives and research, was able to expose them as having committed the same, if not worst, acts.
Politicians need to have their feet held to the fire. Unfortunately, the group as a whole is reticent to do this because they fear the "what goes around, comes around" repercussions.
We have kind of the same problem with bad doctors. It is hard to get a doctor to testify that what another doctor did was medically wrong. Often those that do are ostracized from the medical community. This, however, is improving.
I think values and princples are important issues but they are usually neglected deliberately in politics by politicians, especially the value of ´ honesty´.
A recent analysis in The New York Times notes that the electoral campaign in the US “has veered from traditional policy arguments toward a battle over national identity and values,” and that “Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump are more sharply opposed over racial and gender issues than any two presidential opponents in decades.” (1)
Cultural issues, say the analysts, have been playing an increasing role in this election. The extent to which the voters think they share or not the candidate’s values is one of the key indicators in a New York Times/CBS News poll published hours before the first debate (link below).
(1) Healy, P. & Burns, A. “First Clinton-Trump Debate Is Framed by Rifts Over Race and Gender”. The New York Times. Sept. 25, 2016.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/16/us/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-poll.html?_r=1
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