Hi Carmen,

In my experience meditation can be harmful which is the reason I stopped teaching open classes and for the last ten years I only teach my clients who I know well and where I can match type of meditation practice with a particular need and personality type of a client as well as have a space in psychotherapy session to process what comes out during the meditation.

When we are talking about meditation side-effects there are three important points to consider:

First, there are different types of meditation and not every type would be suitable for everyone. For example, Budhhist Vipassana meditation is very difficult practice for extrovert types, A type personality or hyperactive people. But "Yoga Nidra" meditation which follows quick pace moving the focus through different body parts would work very well in such cases. Many clients tell me of their failed experience with meditation. Most of the time it is due to applying one specific meditation technique in a group set-up and as a result some people would enjoy it and do well while others may experience frustration and feeling of failure.

Second, in meditation you connect to your internal space and depending on what you stored in your internal space meditation may release emotional and mental blockages, from abuse and traumatic images to unprocessed anxiety, grief or anger. Several researchers described this side-effect of meditation:

1. Kutz et al. (1985a,b) described meditation side-effects such as sobbing and release of hidden memories and themes from the past: incest, rejection, and abandonment.

2. Other adverse effects described (Craven, 1989) are uncomfortable kinaesthetic sensations, mild dissociation, feelings of guilt and, via anxiety-provoking phenomena, psychosis-like symptoms, grandiosity, elation, destructive behaviour and suicidal feelings.

3. Shapiro (1992) found that 62.9% of the subjects reported adverse effects during and after meditation and 7.4% experienced profoundly adverse effects. The length of practice (from 16 to 105 months) did not make any difference to the quality and frequency of adverse effects. These adverse effects were relaxation-induced anxiety and panic; paradoxical increases in tension; less motivation in life; boredom; pain; impaired reality testing; confusion and disorientation; feeling 'spaced out'; depression; increased negativity; being more judgmental; and, ironically, feeling addicted to meditation.

During retreats that I have been guiding for years, meditation and silence most times cause a release of stored emotional, mental, physical or spiritual staff. The fact is that we have too busy lives and make very little time for processing of emotional and mental content resulting in a huge number of unprocessed "files". The moment we slow down, became quiet and connect to our inner space material from these "unprocessed files" may come out. In my experience, if one gets no help with processing of that material it can do more harm than good.

Third, meditation practice is often misunderstood and romanticized. Some people think of meditation practice as a way to get relaxed and some as a way to focus. Even though relaxation or focus may be some of the benefits, "goal" in meditation is nothing to do with these. Meditation or dhyana is a process of raising spiritual energy and reaching spiritual enlightenment. In yoga, meditation or dhyana, the process of spiritual awakening is not considered an easy or pleasant one. Hence, on our spiritual journey we need a "guru". Word "guru" translates as "dispeller of darkness" - reflecting how risky and dangerous that road may be.

In conclusion, meditation is a very powerful practice that can induce unpleasant or even harmful effects if not practiced under the guidance and if "material" released is not processed in a meaningful way.

CRAVEN, J.L. (1989). Meditation and psychotherapy, Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 34, pp. 648-653.

KUTZ, I., BURYSENKO, J.K. & BENSON, H. (1985a). Meditation and psychotherapy: a rationale for the integration of dynamic psychotherapy, the relaxation response and mindfulness meditation, American Journal of Psychiatry, 142, pp. 1-8.

KUTZ, I., LESERMAN, J., DORRINGTON, C., MORRISON, C.H., BORYSENKO, J. & BENSON, H. (1985b). Meditation as an adjunct to psychotherapy, an outcome study, Psychotherapy Psychosomatics, 43, pp. 209-218.

SHAPIRO, D.H. (1982). Overview: clinical and physiological comparison of meditation with other self-control strategies, American Journal of Psychiatry, 139, pp. 267-274. SHAPIRO, D.H. (1992). Adverse effects of meditation: a preliminary investigation of long-term meditators, International Journal of Psychosomatics, 39, pp. 62-67.

PEREZ-DE-ALBENIZ, A. & HOLMES, J. (2000). Meditation: concepts, effects and uses in therapy. International Journal of Psychotherapy, Vol. 5 Issue 1, 49-59.

There is some writings on meditation 'bringing up' a persons' potential for hallucinations and delusions. Basically, if one has a risk factor for a psychotic disorder, or is managed well in treatment, meditation may bring up active symptoms.

Meditation is a silent zone of our mind .It relates to our divinity within us base on power on prayer ,Faith , honest & intergrate mode .The above line of meditation always help us to keep a tuning of our life under different line.Due to our will power & inner thought of mind very often reflects the special image in a group & society .This very often establishing & Ego & misuse of our energy & power .This not only creates different imagine in the society but this negative forces generally reply of our energy forces & the spiritual gain which we have achieved throu the help of the meditation .

Really interesting question. Research in our group (health psychology) has shown that mindfulness tends to predict greater avoidance and more symptomology where people are in the presence of avoidance promoting emotion (i.e., .disgust). In short, disgust promotes avoidance and either trait or manipulated mindfulness (in a lab context) makes the effect of disgust on behavior stronger. Have a couple of papers and am just writing up an RCT with chemo patients.

It's really a pain. I found one article dealing with how meditation can effect on amygdala in function and size. It shows a reduced activity and it shrinks. So... in this article only disadvantages of a huge amygdala were named. But other articles also deal with advantages as far as not linked to that topic but to social behaviour. And than again we have those articles that present totaly reversed information. Like one article sais a small amygdala releases anxiety... while others say the reverse case is true.

I was sniffing arround your profile and found your paper, Nathan. I will read it this weekend. Thank you for your help. Also thanks to David. I will try to find the work you did suggest.

Hey Carmen. Will upload a copy of the more recent one (a replication and extension) as soon as it's published. In the follow-up, we manipulate both disgust and mindfulness, concentrating on social avoidance and (again) find that a brief mindfulness induction makes the avoidance-promoting effects of disgust worse. Not the same thing as being truly mindful of course, but food for thought . . .

Hi Carmen,

In my experience meditation can be harmful which is the reason I stopped teaching open classes and for the last ten years I only teach my clients who I know well and where I can match type of meditation practice with a particular need and personality type of a client as well as have a space in psychotherapy session to process what comes out during the meditation.

When we are talking about meditation side-effects there are three important points to consider:

First, there are different types of meditation and not every type would be suitable for everyone. For example, Budhhist Vipassana meditation is very difficult practice for extrovert types, A type personality or hyperactive people. But "Yoga Nidra" meditation which follows quick pace moving the focus through different body parts would work very well in such cases. Many clients tell me of their failed experience with meditation. Most of the time it is due to applying one specific meditation technique in a group set-up and as a result some people would enjoy it and do well while others may experience frustration and feeling of failure.

Second, in meditation you connect to your internal space and depending on what you stored in your internal space meditation may release emotional and mental blockages, from abuse and traumatic images to unprocessed anxiety, grief or anger. Several researchers described this side-effect of meditation:

1. Kutz et al. (1985a,b) described meditation side-effects such as sobbing and release of hidden memories and themes from the past: incest, rejection, and abandonment.

2. Other adverse effects described (Craven, 1989) are uncomfortable kinaesthetic sensations, mild dissociation, feelings of guilt and, via anxiety-provoking phenomena, psychosis-like symptoms, grandiosity, elation, destructive behaviour and suicidal feelings.

3. Shapiro (1992) found that 62.9% of the subjects reported adverse effects during and after meditation and 7.4% experienced profoundly adverse effects. The length of practice (from 16 to 105 months) did not make any difference to the quality and frequency of adverse effects. These adverse effects were relaxation-induced anxiety and panic; paradoxical increases in tension; less motivation in life; boredom; pain; impaired reality testing; confusion and disorientation; feeling 'spaced out'; depression; increased negativity; being more judgmental; and, ironically, feeling addicted to meditation.

During retreats that I have been guiding for years, meditation and silence most times cause a release of stored emotional, mental, physical or spiritual staff. The fact is that we have too busy lives and make very little time for processing of emotional and mental content resulting in a huge number of unprocessed "files". The moment we slow down, became quiet and connect to our inner space material from these "unprocessed files" may come out. In my experience, if one gets no help with processing of that material it can do more harm than good.

Third, meditation practice is often misunderstood and romanticized. Some people think of meditation practice as a way to get relaxed and some as a way to focus. Even though relaxation or focus may be some of the benefits, "goal" in meditation is nothing to do with these. Meditation or dhyana is a process of raising spiritual energy and reaching spiritual enlightenment. In yoga, meditation or dhyana, the process of spiritual awakening is not considered an easy or pleasant one. Hence, on our spiritual journey we need a "guru". Word "guru" translates as "dispeller of darkness" - reflecting how risky and dangerous that road may be.

In conclusion, meditation is a very powerful practice that can induce unpleasant or even harmful effects if not practiced under the guidance and if "material" released is not processed in a meaningful way.

CRAVEN, J.L. (1989). Meditation and psychotherapy, Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 34, pp. 648-653.

KUTZ, I., BURYSENKO, J.K. & BENSON, H. (1985a). Meditation and psychotherapy: a rationale for the integration of dynamic psychotherapy, the relaxation response and mindfulness meditation, American Journal of Psychiatry, 142, pp. 1-8.

KUTZ, I., LESERMAN, J., DORRINGTON, C., MORRISON, C.H., BORYSENKO, J. & BENSON, H. (1985b). Meditation as an adjunct to psychotherapy, an outcome study, Psychotherapy Psychosomatics, 43, pp. 209-218.

SHAPIRO, D.H. (1982). Overview: clinical and physiological comparison of meditation with other self-control strategies, American Journal of Psychiatry, 139, pp. 267-274. SHAPIRO, D.H. (1992). Adverse effects of meditation: a preliminary investigation of long-term meditators, International Journal of Psychosomatics, 39, pp. 62-67.

PEREZ-DE-ALBENIZ, A. & HOLMES, J. (2000). Meditation: concepts, effects and uses in therapy. International Journal of Psychotherapy, Vol. 5 Issue 1, 49-59.

Thank you very much, Zana. I really appreciate that someone with personal experience joins in. You are talking about different types of meditation suitable for different types of personality. Is this based on personal experience with clients? Or is it something one can learn in a course for teachers?

"Second, in meditation you connect to your internal space and depending on what you stored in your internal space meditation may release emotional and mental blockages, from abuse and traumatic images to unprocessed anxiety, grief or anger."

Something I totaly agree. I had a few moments concerning the issue of internal space while practicing self-hypnosis. Nothing really traumatic, nevertheless so unexpected that I developed a huge respect for such states of mind. Since then my view about the unconscious has really changed a lot.

"In my experience, if one gets no help with processing of that material it can do more harm than good."

I agree here too. I am concerned about the idea that some teachers might tell their clients or group members that whatever thoughts or pictures come in are irrelevant and that this could lead to "I better do not talk about it". I guess this is what happens a lot in cults.

Thank you a lot for all the references!

Hi Carmen,

I was wandering about your interest in meditation. It sounds like you meditate yourself...Are you doing a research on meditation? As you could see from just a few references not much has been done in respect of research on meditation.

To answers few of your question: Using different types of meditation for different types of people comes from integrating my yoga teaching with psychological knowledge. I use different meditation and breathing techniques combined with specific postures tailored to the person and goal.

For example, if I am working with hyperactive and extroverted person who is always on the go and can't relax I will teach:

1. Yoga Nidra meditation , easy for hyperactive people to follow but calming;

2. Alternate Nostril breathing which activates parasympathetic system and helps balance over reactive sympathetic system - common problem in hyperactive people that stress easy and have adrenalin overflowing the body;

3. A balancing posture that will bring calmness and focus and introverted posture that will introduce introspective space and boundaries with heart chakra. Hyperactive and extroverted people tend to give too much and don't know how to say "no" so holding posture that closes heart chakra but stimulates intuitive chakra between eye-brows would work well - child pose is the posture I would suggest here.

If I am working with depressed person I would do the following:

1. Depressed person is usually too much in their head so at the beginning I wouldn't teach meditation but bring in Karma yoga. Karma yoga is usually translated as "the yoga of action & service". Essentially, everything one does—from household chores to "important" duties becomes a way of nourishing the universe that nourishes you. Karma yoga is also very grounding. So instead of meditation for depressed client I might suggest gardening for 10-15 min as a karma yoga practice for the day.

2. Bhastrika bretahing which brings life energy and makes person feel very alive would be a breathing practice for a depressed client.

3. One or two backward bands postures that are held for certain number of breaths to activate sympathetic system and open heart chakra. Depressed people opposite to hyperactive ones need to open their heart space and say "yes" to the world and life so postures and breath are given in accordance to that goal.

Your point that some teachers might be discouraging conversation about material that spontaneously releases in meditation is probably a common situation. At the same time, I can't blame them for not going there as processing of such material would require psychological knowledge which most of them are unlikely to have.

As for your question where you can learn how different meditation techniques fit to different problems or personality types - unfortunately there is no course, book or an article I can refer you to. These are concepts that I developed over 20 years of practice as a yoga teacher and psychotherapist and have integrated these into my practice and teaching. I have presented some of these concepts at The World Psychotherapy Congress in China few years back and was asked by interested colleagues to publish these concepts and experiences. It is yet to happen but perhaps this conversation will motivate me to get on with it....

Thank you for interesting exchange. :-)

Hello Zana,

I am very much interested in out of body phenomenos and lucid dreams. Even before I started to study psychology I did join several groups. I am still in contact with some people even if our interests meanwhile diverge from each other.

During the years a lot of those people ran into meditation or whatever they think what meditation is. For several years I was really wondering because some have developed certain behavior which is simply "abnormal". I don't have any other proper word for it. Aggression and anxiety play a big role.

For a while I thought some are maybe taking drugs and it must be an outcome of alcohol abuse. But than again this must happen really hidden from each other. And I never heared anyone glorifying drugs and alcohol. Also I never saw someone drunken or under the influence of drugs. And it even does not really fit.

Than again I know a few stories that of course some have gone through traumatic or stressful episodes in their life which in most cases lay back like over 10 years. But they are not able to find any proper coping style. Instead it is an issue which comes back in waves over and over again. As if they were unable to find a solution to handle it. Dramatic content comes along in different shapes. Dreams and stories and thoughts and other represented material of not such high quality that you might say you can see a clear sublimination here.

The last 3 years I was kinda busy and did not have the time getting involved too much. But as soon as you come back you suddenly see the differences. It is as if you step in into a nuthouse. Totaly disfunctional, aggressive, anti-social. Especially during interactions. There was always some hard undertone in conversations but also really intelligent conversations. But as far as I can say it even got worser the last few years. The interactions are clearly reduced to "I want to tell you what I think. But I am not much interested in what you got to say about it.". Really egocentric. There is no healthy interventions that normaly happens between people. And I truely believe that in similar circumstances people tend to correct each others behavior. But here: Nothing. Maybe because noone has to directly feel as if the shoe fits as long as noone talks to each other. Really funny (in a sad way).

Another thing which I experienced was: Nothing in their lives has really changed. People who were jobless are still jobless. People who had no relationship still do not have any relationship. People without children still don't have children. People who were not satified with their relationship are still in the same relationship. As if they are stucked in time.

Honestly: I don't think one can repair the demage that has taken place here. Beside that I am not a therapist. So I am more interested in what is the cause of all that. I don't believe those people are with each other because they suffer from the same or similiar mental illness. I rather believe they are under the influence of each other and developed certain opinions when it comes to life which they practice now in the extrem assuring each other that it is "OK".

The main reason why I don't want to intervent (intervention is not the reason why I am asking this question) is: I don't want to be the "parrot lady" to wag my finger on somebody (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy-yxb7lXoo) and I don't feel trained enough. I would rather like to write about it in order to prevent people and help to develope an understanding for where it can end if people practice meditation or hypnosis or spirituality to an unhealthy extent.

Traditional "Yoga" literature points to the dangerous of Pranayama (Breathing techniques) and Meditation. Normally highlighted on any text on this subject. And some cases also highlighted that shows the dangerous of this path, if not done properly under the trained/skilled/expert teacher. But I am not sure of any scholarly, systematic study in this.

But the area is worth exploring.

Hi Carmen,

Sometimes people that are in trouble take up meditation in hope to get better but they are already too far down the bad road for meditation to do a miracle. Even though sometimes it might be meditation that causes the problem, more often there is already a serious problem or personality disorder which just gets highlighted and aggravated by going into internal space of meditation. For personality disorders and very damaged people I think meditation space may play a a bit like a painting in "The Picture of Dorian Gray"...

Well... beginning in the 90s we had a huge wave in Germany concerning esoteric. You could find books dealing with meditation and yoga and more obscure topics like channeling in every book store for very little money. This was also the time when a lot of books from the 70s were rediscovered. At first you could only find those books on ebay. Later on publishing houses did react because they saw how high the demand was. Due to the post-dot-com era everything got mixed up very soon with new ideas, new techniques and new technologies. Only a few technologies survived. Binaural beats (a cheaper version of hemi-sync) was one of them.

Very soon I discovered that especially combining such books + techniques with whatever came from the edge of infowars drove people simply mad.

Personality disorder... If comparing people who are interested in such stuff with whoever does study psychology or philosophy I can tell you: Those people are not suffering more or less from any disorders when they start their "career". Especially when comparing them with beginners. (Beside the fact one can find a lot of troubled people with peculiar mental and physic illnesses in the history of science.)

I don't know Zana. Just 2 days ago I saw a beginner freaking out because he was unable to understand what the body-mind problem got to do with psychology (which was really funny). Another one overreacting because of reading textes about diversity and stereotypes (which was even more funny). I am quite sure it's not a personality disorder... but something else.

HI Carmen,

That is really interesting... You said "you saw a beginner"... Are you talking about yoga class or psychology class? What is your "hypothesis"? What is going on?

Hi Carmen, My background is both a meditation/yoga and natural medicine. Having spent many years living in ashrams I can relate to your stories. What I have found in recent years is that many individuals with life/psychological issues gravitate to the spiritual world seeking a magic fix. As Zana mentioned sometimes they are seeking this a little too late. In clinic I've discovered a common connection between long term vegetarians and these types of personality issues. In addition yoga promotes a vegetarian lifestyle , however its been my experience that there are very few in our modern society whose mental health benefits. Hope this helps.

Not Yoga/Meditation, Zana. It was indeed the psychology class *lol* Sorry... I was drifting a bit away from the main topic as I was wondering yesterday if people in general tend to be upset when they are not really able to grasp a topic.

"What I have found in recent years is that many individuals with life/psychological issues gravitate to the spiritual world seeking a magic fix."

That is for sure true, Christine. I never thought about the difference between people who want to use it in a more practical way for special outcomes in their life and people just seeking kind of spiritual assurance, if not to say knowledge.

Stanislav Grof's book, "Spiritual Emergencies," describes how some people feel ungrounded and experience psychological and social maladjustment as a result of introversive forms of meditation and/or other introversive spiritual practices. Introversive forms of meditation, spirituality, and religion can also reinforce narcissistic self-involvement, which can be an impediment to the development of caring, harmonious personal relationships.

Thank you very much, Barry.

Social maladjustment... how come? Does Grof give here any explanations?

Check with Willoughby Britton at Brown. She is very interested in this and is currently doing a large study on adverse effects (particularly psychosis) from intensive meditation practice.

Yes. It can have negative effects in OCD and unremitted Psychosis

I would like to ask another question here. To what extend is meditation or yoga or other spiritual practices in some cultures interwoven in daily life? Let's say in india: Is it something that already children grow up with?

Jagadeesan, I would be interested to know your sources. I've not found any research on negative effects of meditation in OCD (I'm currently researching meditation in anxiety and OCD). I have found that the breathing practice bastrika can stimulate an anxiety attack in OCD and yes I agree that its negative for Bipolar. Research is quite muddied in some of the terms used and some breathing techniques have been referred to as meditation. As is the case with SKY.

Carmen, its been my experience in India, Australia and many other countries that there are groups of yoga individuals who congregate and live the lifestyle either domestically or in Ashrams and bring up children in this style etc.

Hi Carmen,

Yoga is thought in variety of places in India. India’s school policy considers yoga an integral component of physical education. I teach Integral yoga and integral yoga programs made by Bihar School of Yoga are being used in India in the education, prison, Government sectors, hospitals, the Defense Services, as well as private and public sector industries.

Yes, if you exceed certain limits. Because, excess of every thing is bad.

The role of meditation and the manifestation of its effects depend on the goal of the practitioner. For, meditation is utterly dynamic in every sense of the word and not merely physical or mental.. The one who seeks health benefits through meditation, spontaneously modifies its role and practices accordingly. Similarly, the one who looks for occult powers (siddhi) perceives the role of meditation differently and pursues the methods that have been in vogue for centuries. A man of spirituality ( not connected with spirit, religion etc.,/in Sanskrit he is called a Siddha, Eshwer koti, Gnani etc.,/for whom religion can be no more than incidental), identifies it altogether differently.

In the present scenario in which scientific investigation predominates, the performance of analyzing meditation objectively and correlating its inherent subjective aspects needs to precede practice. Personally, it is important for any researcher to learn meditation from a competent Teacher( who personifies morality and ethics that are universal in nature) and practice it in its various dimensions for a few years and compare the experiences objectively with other studies simultaneously.

Hello Koonani,

why do you think it should be important for researchers to learn meditation?

Hi Carmen,

Thank you...actually I meant only the ones who do research on meditation. I stand corrected- other researchers need not learn meditation, even if it helps.

Well,I reiterate that the researchers of meditation,while scrutinizing  objectively the relevance of its subjectivity, need to gain first-hand experience  as well of  what it may be. For, I get to see here,many therapists profess and practice it in isolation as only a method of concentration or a rewarding mental exercise without bothering to identify its position in entirety empirically.

Meditation in my opinion, is an experience of harmony inherent in ourselves and Nature or Universe; a gradual culmination of practice of set of preceding disciplines that are very much the integral part of a system or yoga. Each well ordered and established step of disciplines is designed to provide the optimal experience that  facilitates the level of experience of harmony in the subsequent step. Health benefits are incidental only.

On the research front,when an resolute researcher practices (under a competent teacher) and progresses, he or she is bound to get the requisite insight that may help him intellectually to correlate better and place the hitherto what may appear to be 'conflicting factors' in a broader   perspective.

Again, the goal of the practitioner comes into picture..

A therapist's needs are different and limited to rehabilitation. There,choice of meditation as a form therapy needs to be well evaluated impartially with regard to the competency of the practitioner to offer guidance,orientation of the patient etc.,

Failures,side effects etc., may crop up only as a consequence of application and not due to 'meditation' as such.

Hello Koonani,

I fear we are about to slip into a new kind of positivism dispute. My personal opinion: On the one hand if you got researchers who are not involved in meditation they might not be able to reach the "what it is like" component. The experience is missing and so it might always be a rest of curiosity. But on the other hand: Research is not wonderland. We as researchers cannot provide qualia, as we are providing informations. Value judgments in form of questions like "can it have negative side effects" are anyway a bit close to the bone.

With Eben Alexander we already have a good example what happens with researchers when they try to break up the bonderies between research and qualia: It just gets all absurd. If not to say ridiculous.

The personal experience of any researcher is not of better quality than the experience of any other person. On the contrary it could create bias in form of a white coat effect: Just because a researcher had this experience it must be more true. What is it good for? Laymen will anyway misunderstand it. And then we got articles in the media but no profound research.

I don't know... I myself cannot accredit such kind of research. If you got personal experience and it helps you motivate yourself to keep on working above reason because you have a passion for the topic: Good. But you must be able to come back to that point of objectivity. But that is a drive someone with a complete opposite passion can achieve as well. Because I believe that truth is not bound to your personal view as long as you are able to accept reality.

Hi Carmen,

Yes, we need to cover so much of seemingly unlimited ontological space in order to arrive at some point of agreement –so far as personal experience is concerned. But I agree, we are bound by scientific craft that works well within the limited cosmic space we believe in.

I also agree, there are other difficulties; almost insurmountable given the conditions; yet, we can- if at least an infinitesimal part of the dominant ones, strive a bit more consciously to look conceptually for the possibilities of redrawing the probable boundaries of governing principles of science that was designed primarily to investigate matter and space as perceived then; we can, when we reason that the chosen field of research remains too intricate or complex to be considered objectively alone and requires inputs that may not be feasible under existing order of investigation. I consider meditation as one such. That was the reason why I suggested it to be experienced ‘personally ‘and then analysed intellectually…

I claim that personal experience or qualia remains subjective so long as we tend to differentiate with the pre-established mindset that the notion of objectivity is always, irrevocably incompatible with everything we experience personally.

Dear Carmen, forgive me, so long as meditation is concerned, I am constrained to explain in trickles only.

I do not know whether the revelations of Eben Alexander was the outcome of meditation or vivid expressions of suppressed childhood dreams getting depicted on entrapped and extended field of brain waves that carried residual memories, but know with humility, the power of mind (may be, another point of disagreement!) to deceive, deceive exceptionally and make one to believe to be beyond deception.

I close with best wishes.

Hello Koonani,

don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that personal experience is worthless. I am just saying it is not more worthwhile than any experience of any person. If you crack qualia to get the information it shouldn't make a difference if it is your experience or the experience of any other person as far as properties are investigated and not explanations.

To clarify my thoughts: What I call rediculous when it comes to Alexanders report is not the report itself but that someone just starts thinking about consciousness when this happens to him-/herself. Neurosurgery deals with a different kind of definition about consciousness. I guess we both know that in those fields of research (those that are more medical) a more practical/medical definition of consciousness (conscious vs. unconscious) is the most used one. But if 18% of patient (if we trust statistical data) are reporting that they had some kind of experience when they should have been unconscious do you really need personal experience than? And for what? If you give in your personal experience this is like a drop in the bucket.

In the more medical definition of consciousness and especially when it comes to surgery qualia does not really matter as long as it is not the proper qualia.

Every argument you apply - like suppressed childhood dreams, residual memories, to think one is beyond deception, especially deception - does count for meditation as well. And if it is deception: Why to suggest than personal experience here?

In your first answer you spoke about "an experience of harmony inherent in ourselves and Nature or Universe". So to speak you do believe that there is an quality in every human that allows him/her to experience something we would call "balanced". A person without unneccessary experiences. Or as you said "the optimal experience". And I would say: Free from wrong judgement; or let's better say: Free from prejudice. And this is in fact very close to objectivity. I guess a person cannot get any closer to objectivity standing by him-/herself. Furthermore it is indeed beyond deception as far as unneccessary explanations (what it could have been that one experienced) are taken out.

"the probable boundaries of governing principles of science that was designed primarily to investigate matter and space as perceived then"

If you break down any observed to information and whatever you have observed is complex enough science cannot help to investigate clearly the offsprings. Or how come that there are so often competing theories? Other branches do have the very same problems no matter it is psychology or biology or astrophysics. The trouble with qualia linked to experiences that go beyond what we can imagine is that  we simply cannot (by now) find any proper counterpart. We simply don't know where it all points to. But you may not think that natural sciences don't struggle with those problems. It all depends on your topic of research. I don't believe that investigating dark matter is more fun or any easier. In fact it is a similar problem: You have your information but not idea where it comes from.

Honestly: To say that any experience we cannot explain by now is a (residual) self-imagine is a little bit too simple, my dear.

Let me close with a quote:

Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;

And thus the native hue of resolution

Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,

And enterprises of great pith and moment

With this regard their currents turn awry,

And lose the name of action.

Hi Carmen,

I am really surprised by your response as I thought I did communicate my stand reasonably well.May be I should have defined key words in advance...or should I have asked you exactly how you viewed meditation generally and technically?Or perhaps my  style of reply was not extant..Well,I would like to rephrase my statements for better understanding if few more contributors to this thread join issue and endorse your views in the last post.

Kindly note that any discussion on meditation here in this part of the world  (at least where I reside)involves its theoretical aspects as well as the outcome of individual practice.For, a bone dry philosopher or an hard pressed individual desperate for some quick results has very little to do with meditation in any form.The side effects begin there, in a sense. 

Hello Koonani,

and if I want to work with drug addicts do I first need to get drug addicted for the sake of practical experience? Or what? Or is there a difference in self-experience and experience gained from work with people?

Hi Carmen,

I am not sure why you chose to equate a medical condition with a non-medical psychosomatic process that can be researched better by practising it for a while. I suspect that you may have been misled by too many branded concentration techniques or yoga therapies labelled as 'meditation' being peddled in the west and elsewhere. Since we are at research gate I go strictly by the explanations of meditation given by persons who were traditionally qualified to do so, besides my experience.Some are very specific about who are qualified to practice meditation- means not everybody is good enough to practice as one likes. There are related texts too in vernacular.

My idea is never to ridicule science or anything else,but to make a start to  identify possibilities of researching in a better way, the complicated ones.Perhaps the research environment over there has been too vigorous to allow even a potential thought of reasonable deviation.

Hello Koonani,

"non-medical psychosomatic process that can be researched better by practising it for a while"

In which way?

"why you chose to equate a medical condition with a non-medical psychosomatic process"

Because it is very similar to experiments in which some scientists were drugged to the eyeball with LSD in order to find out what consciousness is. What exactly was that good for (as long as you are no gestalttherapist or you cannot find probands)? No small number of them has fallen from grace because their work was just flawed.

There is a reason why examiner and probands are devided. And you simply cannot be your own examiner and at the same time your proband. Not if you want to go beyond hypothesis. And we don't need to discuss this topic. Not even if anyone of you guys is in the middle of some psychoanalytic session developing a true understand for bias and compassion for the first time (for the sake of avoiding countertransference).

The question was not if you get a better understanding what negative effects feel like because you have maybe gone through the same process but if there can be negative effects caused by meditation.

Again: Noone expects any researcher to take drugs if he/she wants to examine negative effects of drugs (just to avoid countertransference).

Hello Carmen,

Your persistence to equate meditation with experiments on drug addiction seem to suggest that you may be researching a peculiar type of 'meditation' that I am not familiar with. Could you please throw some light on your exposure to meditation?

Regarding my understanding of your question: I understood your question.

---

"non-medical psychosomatic process that can be researched better by practising it for a while"

In which way?

---

The prior mental state of a person who is effortlessly focused on a well-defined work through his fine-tuned faculties or well organized thoughts and selective application of memory content at a given moment is akin to the mental state of person who concentrates within through meditative processes.You may ask: How do you ‘know’ that?

You do that only when you bother to experience both and record those experiences intellectually.You need to be in a state of awareness to do that.

My observation of outcome of practice of meditation is that 'any' meditative state precedes intellectual activities and certainly the scientific observations too . If so, how is that description of a researcher who has never bothered to experience both the states can be exclusively ‘objective’ just by studying partial research data on meditation? 

Finally, I did research on  meditation associated with four kinds of yoga well known here and  opted to engage in dialogue only. The reason why I chose to touch upon  aspects of meditation so that you get to understand when I state what I mean by negative side effects.

Thank you.

Thank you, Francesca.

Dear Francesca Cansani,

I was asking for new studies that write about changes in brain structures or changes in genes or any other physical change that has been observed. Obviously you are not able to provide those answers nor are you able to provide any deeper inside into the connection between qualia and the physical. But you either choose being impertinent.

I would suggest that you better leave this discussion before it gets ugly. And take your new fellow with you. Because I am sick reading your outshining arrogant answers that go far beyond any advantageous discussion. This is just shameless!  No matter what else you are attaching to your infamy. It will anyway not be read any longer. So there is no point discussing with you.

If you want to talk this way to people go and add each other to your facebook accounts and shittalk with your so called "new friend". I am for sure not anything close to that that I am going on taking every shit from you any longer.

And in case you are both doing meditation: You are by far the very best examples I could find how meditation does have negative effects and can spoil a character.

Excuse me please: This is a thread that I started. I was asking this question and you joined in. And when you joined in you were already not watching your language. I am neither your "dear" nor am I your new friends "dear". Understood that? But for sure I am not acquiescing in the way you both want to treat people here: Obviously like your personal doormat. I have no problems with substantial arguments. But I am for sure not gonna put up with your impudence any longer. Enough already! You can report as much as you want. It doesn't give YOU the right to treat people here this way. Next time you better both watch your language or I will give you a reason for report, "dear".

Francesca,

with all due respect: Just leave this conversation and don't contact me ever again.

I can live without your "help" as far as your help does only advertise two points:

- Self-adulation in such a form that you subliminal talk someone down with repeating in one post like 5 times "dear" (what else could that be than self-adulation treat someone else like smaller than you are?)

- Meditation as a good thing saying that anyone who made bad experience with mediation did it wrong and just needs to find a good teacher. Which is likewise to arguments people find for drugs. That a small group can benefit from it (like people with cancer or pain issues). And if you took drugs and getting negative effects through cosuming it is just because you did it out of the wrong reasons. To say that the failure for bad events and outcomes is on peoples side because they are troubled from the start is such a bullshit that has been promoted for centuries. Also thoughts like "spiritual nurishment" and - what I personally call - "mother gaya"-shit. As if the world only depends on ones view above it. And in case something goes wrong: You couldn't establish a "perfect view". And those people unable to achieve are nothing more like whiners.

That is what I call an ideologic cult perspective. One-sided and untouchable. Untouchable because they get you dead in the water with pointing back to you as a subject. Your problems are still your problems. If you come to meditation getting rid of your problems help is advertised. But if it gets worser: Hard luck! Your fault! You were just unable to transform. Transform to what? Let's be honest: At least you were just unable to let your old life behind you coming to a new "understanding" which is in most cases nothing but supporting the cults view. It's simply in most cases not working as far as you are not interested in different values. They cannot provide you with supporting your values. Why? Because your values are anyway wrong. Good day and goodbye.

That is way back from "love and delight", Francesca. This is nothing but uniforming. The same kind of uniforming people you can find in every ideologic communistic view. And there is for sure a reason why especially in those countries with communicsm and socialism meditation is so popular. Because socialism and communism goes very well with those ideas. Same here: If socialism and communism doesn't work for you and doesn't provide you any good and peaceful life or deeper answers there must be something wrong with you. It is the very same eyes wide shut mentality: Concentrade on yourself and not on others. Otherwise you might feel feelings which you should not feel and see things that you should not see.

Good intensions all well and good. But that is by far not enough to explain why for some people it not only doesn't work but leads to the opposite. And to sit down in front of ones computer jabbering about "develope your spirit first before you can understand" which so to say anyway fits into the mood of self-adulation thinking that other people are "smaller" than oneself: This is an answer one can stick somewhere where not even spiritual light does shine anymore.

To conclude I reproduce what I posted elsewhere...

"During the process of meditation (initially concentration) the senses( intermediate faculties) that are perceived conduits of information are allowed to rest by turning the attention (representing the part activity of internal faculties in conjunction with senses) inwards and focusing on a particular event of choice (subjective act of objectivation at barest minimum that can be verified differently).Prior to that the body, its functions including energy transfer mechanisms (breathing, eating etc.,) and the state of mind with regard to interacting internal and external environment are to be brought to optimal condition conducive to harmonic activities (psycho-somatic) by performing prescribed practices (objective act that can be verified).

Well, why should one bother to do that? The goal decides it.

It (meditation) systematically enables the person who is determined to investigate his own nature through which he finds himself as man,/woman and the rest. It allows a person to investigate systematically what lies beyond the 'subjective' and 'objective' constructions of senses and mind.

It is a reasonable process through which one may free oneself in every sense of the word, from binding conditions that one experiences out of ignorance and consequent responses.

To put it differently, one deals first with the factors dominated by the external conditions, then by the intermediate and subsequently the internal conditions to realize what could be the unknown-perhaps the condition less state. Is it unreasonable or oriental madness to think that whatever one may gain by probing the external through objectivation, it is more reasonable to investigate, through the reverse process of objectivation, the internal through which the rest is projected? Is it not in sync with the process of negation?

The relevance and significance of meditation is there. The understanding of harmony begins here".

I thank you all who inquired.

Interesting presentation...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263084150_Without_Knowledge_Of_First_Cause_Can_Science_Correctly_Predict_Effect

Deleted research item The research item mentioned here has been deleted

it can be interesting for you:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264156661_Meditation_makes_me_sick_Meditation_and_sensitivity_to_parasympathetic_nervous_system_stimulation

Conference Paper Meditation makes me sick: Meditation and sensitivity to para...

Intial practice of meditation is to keep a link with our mind to help him to go for creating an atmosphere of calmness by joining through his conscious & sub conscious mind .

Meditation helps us not only to keep our mind calm & quite & also help us to restore within us thereby we can remain comfortable by viewing the life as an observer .

In certain cases people go for meditation not for reaching the truth of life from the within instead they by their carry out the practice for creating harm to others due to their negative nature of hatred & jealsouy they may ahiceve the result by negligible percentage but they themselves by harmony their negative approach of mind effective their conscious & subconscious mind..

just speculating..............  Maybe the degree of benefit from meditation may be a function of + mental health; that is, the less healthy (e.g., personality disorders) may experience more negative outcomes...... Also......... may be a function of defense mechanisms structure.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275098063_Meditation_a_review_on_current_research

Research Meditation a review on current research

5. Side effects

Meditation is considered to be safe for healthy people, when practiced for a limited time period daily. Possible side effects of regular meditation training are not well known or studied (6, 14). Benson stated that he had seen no unfavourable side effects, with limited practice 20-30 minutes two times a day. On the other hand, when more frequently elicited, he observed side effects in a few individuals, like insomnia, psychosis, hallucinations and withdrawal from life. However, it is difficult to retrospectively evaluate these side effects, since those factors might have drawn the persons to meditation in the first place (6). Meditation may increase the risk for initial worsening of psychiatric disease (14), or trigger psychosis in allready psychiatrically disturbed patients (76) as well as delay other necessary treatments (14).

An important factor to be aware of, is the existence of cultic meditation forms (76), hence, for clinical application, it is essential that the meditation technique is of a secular nature and that religious and cultic-forms of meditation are excluded from healthcare.

There is an excellent article on the journal the humanist: http://thehumanist.com/magazine/september-october-2007/features/can-meditation-be-bad-for-you 

Also a good article came out today: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jan/23/is-mindfulness-making-us-ill

I hope you find this article published by my team abouit unexpected effects of meditation:

Article Unwanted effects: Is there a negative side of meditation? A ...

I have known from friends that meditation can lead to psychosis and bipolar. Three of my friends were practicing some of other form of meditation. They did not tell me which one. Two of them had divorce and another is struggling. I think it is important to bring spiritual cleanliness in life before practicing meditation to withstand the pressure of psychological transformation.

Two new articles. One, showing how it increases selfishness: 1.General public article: https://qz.com/1307380/yoga-and-meditation-boost-your-ego-say-psychology-researchers/ -Published article: https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/420273/ How it impairs motivation: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/opinion/sunday/meditation-productivity-work-mindfulness.html?smid=tw-nythealth&smtyp=cur

Respectfully, the NY Times piece Dr. Ramirez references has some serious shortcomings of the sort that are characteristic of a too global and self-assuredly glib reduction of "mindfulness" to, in the words of the NY Times piece, a "mental nap." I recently offered a brief Twitter thread discussion of that article:

https://twitter.com/bodhidave3/status/1007442717952143361

Please take a look at the following RG link.

Article Unwanted effects: Is there a negative side of meditation? A ...

Most of my studies are centered around examining effect of meditation. Some are published and available on research gate, others I have presented in International Conference of 'The Science of Consciousness (TSC)'. Abstracts are available on TSC website.

Though studying the side effects was not the objective in these studies, but I never came across any meditator stating so when I conducted interviews with them. One of the reasons can be, I have studied the effect of Surat-Shabd-Yoga meditation based on Oriental Philosophy of Saints (Radhasoami Philosophy) in which each meditationist is trained by advanced meditator and has continuous guidance of an adept.

In my studies, I have found there is positive influence of meditation on Mindwandering, Metacognition, Cognitive Flexibility, Inhibitory Control, Executive functions in general and Consciousness Quotient. There is differential effect on meditators based on their experience and training.

To sum up, in my opinion, meditation does not have any negative side effects unless it is practiced under the guidance of an adept.

In my opinion meditation has no any side effect if you meditate focusing only on positive thought, peace and well-being of all living beings.

Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz in book The Mind and the Brain, and his team in UCLA

psychiatry department designed a psychotherapy protocol to correct

malfunctioning brain structures implicated in OCD- based on neuroscience

findings that learning experiences always include physical brain changes-part

of the therapy was learning mindfulness practices to normalize activity levels

in the brain- overactivity had been found to disrupt original brain design in

structures that are designed to facilitate easy shifts of attention- reco the book

as well as my book Neuroplasticity-Biology of Psychotherapy-