In France, people associate the name of Doctor with physicians. If you ask people in the street, Doctor is synonymous with Medical Doctor. It’s more disturbing to note that even in hospitals, only physicians are considered as Doctors. In French hospitals, a doctorate of philosophy is almost worthless and it isn’t better than a master of science. I have two doctorates: the first one of veterinary medicine and the second one of philosophy (specialized in molecular genetics); yet, I was recruited by the University Hospital at the same level as people with a master of science. I was told that there is unfortunately no room for people with doctorates in the salary scale of the hospital, which is very convenient in a way, since it enables to level down the recruitment. Moreover, the mention Dr. is forbidden in official reports –even when the type of doctorate is precised- for any people who are not medical doctors. In fact, the only title recognized for non-medical doctors is Pr., when one can have access to it, because almost all professor positions are kept for medical doctors. I don’t feel like complaining, because working is a hospital is nevertheless a great opportunity to do a very interesting work. And we’re in a period of crisis, so one can remind us that we have nothing to complain about. Yet, I would be curious to know the way doctors of philosophy –other than medical doctors- are considered in other countries. Feel free to post me a note about it.
My perspective on this issue may be a litle different. Let me give you a simple example: If your loved one is having a life threatening emergency during a trans-Atlantic flight and you scream: Is there a doctor on the plane; you do not want a Nobel prize winner in Physics show up. Nor would I want a dentist or an M.D. who is a radiation oncologist and has no experience in primary care. I would rather have a fire fighter with resuscitation skills.
Titles are not as important as some try to make them. What is most important is that you have the foundation to provide a service that you are expected to provide. Life of a scientist should never be about titles or recognition. It should be about a genuine effort to contribute to knowledge and efforts to improve the world we live in. It should not be about portraying self-confidence and showing off your credentials; it should be about walking on your path with confidence and conviction.
At the end of the day, if you are truly contributing and your work has merit, nobody who should matter to you, will care about your title or titles.
In Poland doctor is a common degree of education. It is not reserved for medicine.
Thanks Anna. It's good to know that Polish people are more open-minded.
Someone with a Ph.D. is commonly referred to as Doctor in the USA and Canada. And a Ph.D. is usually the required degree for many senior research positions in science and engineering (even in medical sciences it is hardly rare to see a Ph.D with or without an M.D.).
In the larger research university medical schools, the Ph.D. faculty may even easily outnumber those with a medical degree.
To avoid confusion, I would say: "I am a Ph.D scientist" rather than "I am a doctor". Ph,D. scientists are referred to as Dr. among scientists but the general population, at least in the US, limits the word doctor to persons with an MD.
for us Ph.D. is confusing, cause when it is instead of dr - it is translated as dr. When somebody with dr degree do Ph.D. it is referred to habilitation - another degree used in Poland. So the same Ph.D. is once equal to dr, and another time equal to hab.
that is a little different. In Germany and US, PhD is obtained following a dissertation. Habil is later to achieve Privat Dozent status (no corresponding process in US other than promotion).
In sweden the title doctor is not reserved for physicians, but people in the street associate doctor with physicians and nothing else. If you would go out to the public and say that you are a doctor you would have to say that yo are a doctor of .....to not be misstaken as an MD.It is more or less only in academic environment that you can say that you are a doctor and not automaticly be depicted as an MD.
until recently hab. was obtained by dissertation, just like dr.
Now it is achieved only on the basis of publications and their impact factor. It is evaluated by a special comission.
Anette - a little bit the same in Poland, many people think I am a medicine doctor - need to explain to them everything.
Thank you all for your input. The problem is here is indeed a matter of confusion, and I would add of corporatism. I understand that the name of doctor equals physicians in the collective unconscious. It's anchored in people minds and I have no real problem with it. On the other hand, I am bothered by the negation of the title of doctor for PhD in a professional environement. In french hospitals, to avoid any confusion between medical doctors and other doctors, physicians denied the right to PhD to sign as Doctors, even if they use the title hamonization xxxxxx yyyyyy, PhD or MD or PhD , MD. In addition, in some departments, PhD are not authorized to sign/co-author any article, even if they did all the work and wrote the manuscript; this is denied by MD, who need articles for their career, as if PhD didn't (hopefully, it's not the case for me, noting by the way that is no harmonization among hospitals). I will voluntarily exaggerate, but by corporatism/protectionism physicians created thereby different casts: the uppercasts=MD, and the lowerecasts=others. This situation is accepted by administrative people and it induces an overall underconsideration of non-medical employees, and by the way of PhD.
To acess to position of associate professor or professor, MD also need to get a PhD. Yet, to be logical, it shouldn't be called PhD, as physicians are very far from spending as many time as doctoral students on their thesis. Objectively, they could not spend more, beause they already have to face medical and/or biological activities in their respective departments in the hospital. The value of their PhD is however not the same as the one obtained by students who spend several years working full-time on their thesis project.
I regret thus this somehow disrespectful politics lead by french medical establishment towards PhD. I don't think I'm embittered, but I like when a work is recognized at its fair value. And I don't feel it's very fair right now.
In Brazil, even lawyers consider themselves as Drs. And the real PhDs are not well paid.
The shift toward professional doctorates in the rehabilitation sciences complicates the matter further. In the US, there has been concern that professional doctorates—such as physical therapy (DPT), occupational therapy (OTD), audiology (AuD) and speech-language pathology (SlpD)—can lead to confusion among patients who are likely to equate 'doctor' with 'MD' in healthcare settings. At least some of the professions have published ethical proscriptions regarding the use of the title 'Doctor' by clinicians holding doctoral degrees...
My perspective on this issue may be a litle different. Let me give you a simple example: If your loved one is having a life threatening emergency during a trans-Atlantic flight and you scream: Is there a doctor on the plane; you do not want a Nobel prize winner in Physics show up. Nor would I want a dentist or an M.D. who is a radiation oncologist and has no experience in primary care. I would rather have a fire fighter with resuscitation skills.
Titles are not as important as some try to make them. What is most important is that you have the foundation to provide a service that you are expected to provide. Life of a scientist should never be about titles or recognition. It should be about a genuine effort to contribute to knowledge and efforts to improve the world we live in. It should not be about portraying self-confidence and showing off your credentials; it should be about walking on your path with confidence and conviction.
At the end of the day, if you are truly contributing and your work has merit, nobody who should matter to you, will care about your title or titles.
I agree with your view of a genuine contribution to science not taking care about the others' comments. That's the way it should be. you try to do your best, and if you contribute a little bit to improve scientific knowledge, it's rewarding in itself. I don't care much about titles, but let's face it: nowadays, if you want to develop your research, you need to raise fundings -at least regarding biology and/or medicine, which I know the best-. Now, if your work is not recognized because one doesn't even let you be investigator of any project and be named for a grant request you have written, you will always be dependent on someone, a "mentor" so to speak, and you won't be able to really conduct your own research. It's a bit like being an eternal ghost writer. And that's precisely the role played by PhDs in our hospitals. This is different in national research centers where scientists are 90% PhD. In french hospitals, confidence and conviction are not sufficient to walk on your path, and that's a bit sad, because research there would gain much from a better mix of everyone's skills.
As regards the aircraft incident, you're absolutely right. And all the MDs I know from my hospital are scared of being called for an emergency during a flight, beause they haven't seen a patient for years.
Let me change the subject a little bit. Did you know that a radiation therapist can make $1 million a year. Hours: 9 am to 3-4 PM. Radiologists work from their home and make about $400K per year reading films. Interventional radiologists work hard and collect $600-800K per year. And then you can have a hardworking family practice doctor collect $80K/year and a PhD Assoc Professor with 2 R01 grants make $120K per year. There are so many things that could drive someone crazy if one allowed that to happen. There are also so many things that are fun and so many genuinely nice people to meet and work with. It is all about prioritizing and not to be bothered by "little" things like titles even if others try to control your life by making you emotionally dependent on those less important items. A well defined path, a loving family, our children/i.e our biggest investment, our credibility, health, and liberty. I hope this does not come across as patronizing. That certainly is not my intent.
In India, a person who has done BDS (Bachelor of Dental Surgery), MBBS or has a PhD is referred to as Doctor.
and now-a-days, there is demand from people who have done BPT (Bachelor of Physiotherapy), that they also be allowed to use the title "Doctor"! This I think is totally ridiculous.....
A person Doing MBBS is a Physician, after BDS he is a Dentist, after BPT he is a designated physiotherapist. only after one completed his/her MDS/MD/MS one should be allowed to used the word Medical Doctor.
and only shuld persons who have completed there Doctoral studies i.e. PhD should be allowed to use Dr. in front of their name!
(a honest & personal opinion)
You're right once again Pr. Uckun. I like your refreshing point of view. The most important thing is to enjoy one's life at home and at work. The goal is to have a balance between professional and familial activities. For my part, I have chosen my work not for the money, otherwise I would have worked in a veterinary clinics, but for the pleasure I have to work. I feel fine in my professional environment, and I often don't feel like working. In addition, I have the opportunity to spend time with my family. Yet, you know, French people like complaining. I obviously see what's going in on out there, because of the global crisis and I am aware of the chance of having a satisfying job even if it's not perfect. In a way, to be not entirely satisfied wth its situation is however a means to keep going forward, and to keep improving one's situation for one's family and for oneself. So, yes, titles are only a detail, but they constitute an investment too, and it's normal that you expect them to bring you a little bit to have access to the best job as possible (which for me is not synonymous of most-paid job).
I like what John Lennon had to say about life: Life is what happens to you
While you're busy making other plans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5BBEOjUKrI
@Kury
In India at public sphere Doctor means it is Medical Doctors. PhDs are rarely known by common people. But among educated circle they know the difference of these two. When I meet a Medical Doctor and during other diagnostic tests I never use I am a Doctor which may confuse here though I hold a PhD degree.
In your case since you are working in a Hospital it may happen. But the very sad thing is it not even reflects in records.
Here two Doctorates are paid less. Even medical doctors.
Dear sebastien,
You should not accept to put the name of any medical doctor to any paper if they did not contribute to it. If you did the work your name should be on it at the very least. Furthermore Doctor is a title and you cannot be required not to use it. If you ask a French lawyer you may be surprised to find out that the requirement of the hospital is not legal.
Cheers
David
to ashish badiye
i completely agree with u. but u dont think problems are in ourselves
have u ever differentiate in these terms? whenever u need a physician , do u ever tell dat u have need a physician not a doctor or whenever u feel pain in teeth then u ever said that u have to go to a dentist? I think u never said this. Me too
so firstly correction required in ourselves. We are educated although we have never used this term.
Dear Sonam Mahto,
Sure I know these differences and I have used them all along till now.... My Father happened to be a Medical Doctor (Physician and Surgeon). and yeah whenever I have a toothache, I go to DENTIST :)
Two of my cousin sisters happen to be Dentists and I often have a word fight with them when they refer themselves as Doctors.
So I do my bit in demarkating and differentiating these terms whenever and wherever possible and required. :)
In Germany, everybody who has received a Ph. D. (to use the US name for this) has a "Doctor". However, to be more precise, the actual title is never only "Dr.", but always has a specifying suffix, borrowed from Latin:
* A Dr. med. is a "doctor of medicine" (what the US would label "M.D.", if I am not mistaken). A doctor in dentistry would be a "Dr. med. dent.", a doctor in veterinary sciences a "Dr. med. vet.".
* A Dr. phil. is a "doctor of philosophy" (or other "mostly thought-based" sciences). Note that this can also be conveyed in some universities to a Ph.D. in (theoretical) Computer Science, for example.
* A Dr. rer. nat. is a "doctor of natural sciences", e.g., Maths, Physics
* A Dr.-Ing. is a "doctor of engineering sciences", which usually includes (less theoretical) Computer Science.
* A Dr. iur. is a "doctor of law"
* A Dr. oec. is a "doctor of economy"
* A Dr. rer. pol. is a "doctor of political sciences"
* A Dr. theol. is a "doctor of theology"
* A Dr. h.c. is a "honorary doctor" - usually given to politicians and other high-ranking persons, and quite often more to benefit the university than the honor the achievements of the candidate.
There are a couple of other (less frequently or no longer used) titles, which can confuse things a bit. However, if you add your full title credentials (I am a "Dr.-Ing."), people knowing some Latin or the German names will easily be able to zero in on your rough area. For example, a dentist cannot be confused with someone promoting in economy!
Dear Dr. Rößling, with a little delay, I find that this "suffix" solution is the right one. We used it a bit in our lab, but the physicians of our department put the pressure to delete these mentions, because they were afraid of confusions between MD and non-MD. They were not very open-minded on this point.
With all due respect to the colleague whose name is Deleted, it is my considered opinion that Titles are not as important as some try to make them. What is most important is that you have the foundation to provide a service that you are expected to provide. Life of a scientist should never be about titles or recognition. It should be about a genuine effort to contribute to knowledge and efforts to improve the world we live in. It should not be about portraying self-confidence and showing off your credentials; it should be about walking on your path with confidence and conviction.
And depending on where we live, what we do, and who we interact with, it should be one of the things we pay attention to that we avoid verbiage that may cause confusion and hurt rather than help the communication. My favorite teacher had many titles: Prof. Dr. med. Dr. med. h. c. mult. Gotthard Schettler. Yet not once did I hear him introduce himself to a patient with his title. He was always Herr Schettler for his students and his patients. Likewise, my teacher Muzaffer Aksoy, the man who discovered that benzene causes leukemia, not once used his title. Neither man had to. It did not matter. They were loved and respected because they were decent human beings who believed in something bigger than themselves; they were respected because they had the foundation to help the people who sought their expertise.
In regards to using the word doctor, and I am speaking for a specific context, namely USA, I believe this can be confusing. And confusion can sometimes be very dangerous, especially when someone follows your advice thinking your are a physician.
Ultimately it is a question about who you want to be known as. If you believe that it is important to be known as a Macher and Geheimratsprofessor, by all means be that way. Some of us prefer to be loved and respected rather than feared and envied.
In Turkce, the language spoken in Turkey and other parts of the world where Turks live, there is a simple but powerful measure for someone's standing in the society. The measure is to be: "adam gibi adam". Translated, it means "man like a man". As opposed to Felix Krull (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bekenntnisse_des_Hochstaplers_Felix_Krull).
I would like to end this line of thought with an inspirational quote from Admiral Halsey:
"There are no great men, only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet."
In our country, Philippines "Dr." is a title reserved for people in the medical field and to a lesser extent, to people in in the academe. Lay people do not use the term doctor to refer to phDs. This maybe partly due to the rarity of phDs here. Most students stop school after a bachelors degree to start work. Small fraction will go to school for postgrad studies. That's precisely why phDs here have a good pay especially in academe even comparable to that of medical doctors.
Historically, the title Doctor just means Teacher. It was first used for qualified members of the Church, then (from about 1200) for University teachers/graduates. Its use for medical doctors is more or less honorific by "equivalence". Many European languages distinguish between physicians and other doctors (médecin/docteur; Arzt/Doktor etc), while addressing physicians as "Dr".
Nicely, in the UK, qualified surgeons drop their title of Dr and become Mr (does somebody know how women surgeons are addressed?).
Dear Dr. Sébastien Küry, If we trace back then we come across that the word doctor was used for physicians irrespective to their level and degrees (like Homeopathy, Aryuveda, Tib,... And, thhis title was used well before the inception and award of a Ph D degree.
In India a person with a degree in any branch of medicine (modern medicine, homeopathy, Ayurveda, Unani, dentistry, veterinary etc.) are called doctors as well as those with a Ph.D. in any discipline
In Jordan, a middle eastern country, we use the word "doctor" to refer to both physicians and any PhD holder working in academia or as researcher.
It is the hight of hubris that medical doctors want to restrict the use of the term doctor, when they themselves abrogated it from the church! The first persons called doctor were doctors or teachers of the church. I work with medical doctors every day, and some are worthy of the respect the title implies, others, not so much. The turf wars that M.D.'s have instigated in the U.S. reflects poorly on them and on displays the general ignorance of the population in not checking this hubris.
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