It was assumed by mainstream thinkers that the economic man was a rational independent decision maker since the industrial revolution, what about its replacement, the green economic man after the paradigm shift from the pure econoic to the green economy formalized in 2012 RIO +20, is the green econoimc man assumed to be a rational independent decision maker too?... Or should he be expected to be a rational independent decision maker too? What do tyou think the nature of the green economic man is
Dear Lucio,
I think that the economic man, as man that he is, is neither rational nor independent as he is influenced for many external and internal factors (pullers and pushers).
Regards,
Alfredo J. Escribano.
Dear Alfredo. My apologies the question is not very clear, I will edit the question and add more content. to generate constent answers . It is okay to disagree with mainsteam assuptions, but it helps to understand them as they are behind polices that affect us whether we like it or not...
The mainsteam assumption was that "the eocnomic man is a rational independent decision maker, but now there has been a paradigm shift(1987-2012) from pure economy to green economy and now the economic man has been replaced by the green economic man...
So the economic man now, today, is dead and its formal replacement is the green economic man...so the question is it the green economic man assumed to be a rational independent decision maker too?...If the answer is yes, then is a theory-practice inconsistency in the green market part of the green market knowledge gap created by the paradigm shift. If the answwer is not, then the question becomes "what type of rationlal decision maker the green economic man shouldbe expected to be?...Either answer has very important model and policy implications...
As food for thoughts I am sharing with you the following article:
Wish you a nice day
Did Adam Smith Missed the Chance to State the Goal and Structure of Sustainability Markets in His Time? If Yes, Which Could Be Some of the Possible Reasons Behind That?
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Lucio_Munoz/publications
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286625136_Did_Adam_Smith_Missed_the_Chance_to_State_the_Goal_and_Structure_of_Sustainability_Markets_in_His_Time_If_Yes_Which_Could_Be_Some_of_the_Possible_Reasons_Behind_That
Article Did Adam Smith Miss the Chance to State the Goal and Structu...
Dear Alfredo, your comment was focused on the economic man, not on the green man, do you think the same way about the nature of the green economic man?.
I think we have to define what a green economic man is all about. My readings tell me that a green economic man is a man who thinks green. Green here is just metaphorically used as something associated to ecological mode of thinking, analysis, and decision-making. The rationality of a green economic man is non-individualistic. It encompasses the whole range of anthropological, and sociological dimensions. Its reasoning is not anchored on methodological egoism as understood by economics which anchored its understanding of man as homo-economicus. Rationality is not mainly based on Bentham's pleasure pain calculus. Every time a green economic man decides, he considers hi fellowman, and his environment which constitutes the heuristic character of natural resource utilization.
Dear Sherilito, good day.
The traditional market had an economic man and now it has been fixed at RIO +20 and transformed into a green market...I have been calling the new man in the green market "the green economic man", the invisible hand in the green market and I have not heard or read yet anybody else calling it that way.... T
The economic man was assumed to be "a rational independent decision maker" within Adam Smith's market, the question is the green economic man assumed to be or expected to be too "a rational independent decision maker?. The makers of the green market have not said anything yet about the nature of the invisible hand in this new green market so I have been extrapolatiing from the structure of the green market the expected nature of this new man so I have an idea of what to expect, but I want to see if other can see it....
In my reply to Alfredo I gave a clue about this, did you read my comment to Alfredo above before making your comment?
Based on the above, do you think the green economic man should be expected to be exactly like the economic man? that is the question....
Have a nice day!
You can find food for thoughts about the green economic man and red economic man in this article:
Adam Smith and Karl Marx Under the Sustainability Eye: Pointing Out and Comparing the Sustainability Gaps Behind these Two Great Simplification Failures.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290607852_Adam_Smith_and_Karl_Marx_Under_the_Sustainability_Eye_Pointing_Out_and_Comparing_the_Sustainability_Gaps_Behind_these_Two_Great_Simplification_Failures
Article Adam Smith and Karl Marx Under the Sustainability Eye: Point...
I would like to share my concern of this theme. I see in practice that "economic person" (gender correct language) just change title to "green economic person", in most cases not changing opinion and not having "fresh" related knowledge.
In addition, education system, is so firm and possible changes towards "new generation, properly educated green economy person" is having "time delay" component.....
Dear Andjeka, thanks for your comment. You are right in every point, when there is a paradigm shift we leave the knowledge based supporting the old paradigm behind creating a knowledge fall down effect accumulated in a paradigm shift knowlege gap....That is happening the the green markets in old capitalist countries and to the red market in newly capitalist countries like China and the former soviet republics....there have been to paradigm shifts and there are two new economic man, the green economic man in old capitalist countries and the red economic man in former socialist countdriess.... We are implementing gloabl and local development programs under these steep paradigm shift knowledge gap....
In the coming days I will share a paper focused only on old capitalist countries showing the unintended consequences of iparadigm shifts such as in this case leaving behind theories like the Arrow Imposssibility Theorem...
I willl share this article and ideas here soon...
Have a nice day....
Dear Andjeka and friends, you may find these two related publications interesting, you can use them as food for thoughts.
Have a nice day!
Paradigm Evolution and Sustainability Thinking: Using a Sustainability Inversegram to State Paradigm Death and Shift Expectations Under Win-Win and No Win-Win Situations.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291274083_Paradigm_Evolution_and_Sustainability_Thinking_Using_a_Sustainability_Inversegram_to_State_Paradigm_Death_and_Shift_Expectations_Under_Win-Win_and_No_Win-Win_Situations
Understanding the Death and Paradigm Shift of Adam Smith’s model: Was Going Green the Only Option? If not, Is This Option the Most Sustainable One?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291523109_Understanding_the_Death_and_Paradigm_Shift_of_Adam_Smith%27s_model_Was_Going_Green_the_Only_Option_If_not_Is_This_Option_the_Most_Sustainable_One
Article Understanding the Death and Paradigm Shift of Adam Smith’s m...
Hi Sir Lucio,
I understand what your asked. I think the green economic man you are interested to talk about will just be the same as the economic man of Adam Smith. There is a great deal of shifting to a new wave of thought here. Becoming green in one's attitude of resource utilization, and production would entail a lot of factors in society. I am suggesting an emerging philosophy called evolutionary metaphysics. This science speaks how beings evolved towards something. Have a nice day sir.
Dear Sherilito, that is why I asked the question, most people including those behind the green market birth probably think as you just said.....they thought or think that just by greening the economy they would save the economy, however they apparently did not see and probably have not seen it yet as a paradigm shift....Because of this shift the green economic man can not be neither close to what the economic man was....my next paper will show why...
The move from pure capitalism to green market is a paradigm shift, and when you shift paradigms the knowleged base supporting the old paradigms is left behind creating a paradigm shift knowledge gap....If Adam Smith model needs fixing, any other idea or methodology based on Adam Smith model needs also fixing as all is left behind.....When a paradigm shift to another paradigm the new paradigm has different choice structure and model structure than the one left behind so previous knowledge do not work, only new knowledge or fixed old knowledge would work....I called this "the knowledge fall down effect" associated with paradigm death and shift.....and this leads to the house of cards fall down effect....as related knowledge to the base knowlege is also left behind......As time passes and with the help of my writings everybody will be able to see this and adjust....as there will be no room to go around....and they will need to face the scientific reality.....
Have you read my article on how systems/paradigms evolve from something to something different from the sustainaibility point of view?....given your interest in model/knowledge evulution you should read it....it will give you some food for thoughts.....
Thank you for commenting Shrilito, my warm greentings.
Paradigm Evolution and Sustainability Thinking: Using a Sustainability Inversegram to State Paradigm Death and Shift Expectations Under Win-Win and No Win-Win Situations.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291274083_Paradigm_Evolution_and_Sustainability_Thinking_Using_a_Sustainability_Inversegram_to_State_Paradigm_Death_and_Shift_Expectations_Under_Win-Win_and_No_Win-Win_Situations
The original formulation of the 'choice' definition of modern economics (from Lionel Robbins) wasn't rational in the modern sense. It was explicitly an approximation (an "ideal type"), that was supposed to be used merely as a heuristic device to understand different, real behavior. The costs (as it were) of adopting such a definition was that it employed concepts that were not measurable (Robbins and his neo-liberal followers were clear on this), This was explicitly in contradiction to the definition of Marshall, who developed most of the actual tools used by modern economics, who viewed economics as the study of "the material aspects of well-being", to be supplemented with ethical considerations without which, Marshall said, economics was a waste of time.
In addition, Robbins definition excludes resources which while scarce, do not have alternative uses. That is, it assumes substitution. There are no substitutes for clean air, clean water and our climate however, and the Robbins definition seems to exclude these.
Because modern economics ignores all these vital considerations and is contradictory, using tools from one approach and a definition from another, it gets into a mess when it attempts to address environment, and comes across a wide swathe of paradoxes as a result. It also isn't able to handle the sort of governance issues that massive inequalities would raise for any serious environmental intervention.
Jon
Dear Jon, you comment is not directly related to the question posted here.
However, I agree with you and I thought about this from the system thinking point of view and ths the reason I tought about looking at the same market issues from the sustainability point of view..... to figure out a more inclusive market framework, the sustainability market framework. And share ways from this point of view on how to move forward fixing the founding ideas and to do that I placed my focus with Adam Smith and his traditional market and forward......to highlight that what was assumed away is what needs to be fixed today......Given the current social and envionmental crises....The shifrt to green markets is the first step toward future sustainabilyt market as they are based only on closing the environmental sustainability gap affecting the traditional market....the social sustainability gap is still affecting the green market as it assumes social externality neutrality....But moving forward step by step is find with me....Now that a paradigm shift has taken place formally we need to close the paradigm shift knoledge gap in order to support the green economcy with green micro and macro economic tools....
In case you have not seen them I am sharing these two paper with you and use them as food for thoughts on these ideas:
Did Adam Smith Missed the Chance to State the Goal and Structure of Sustainability Markets in His Time? If Yes, Which Could Be Some of the Possible Reasons Behind That?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286625136_Did_Adam_Smith_Missed_the_Chance_to_State_the_Goal_and_Structure_of_Sustainability_Markets_in_His_Time_If_Yes_Which_Could_Be_Some_of_the_Possible_Reasons_Behind_That
The Unintended Consequences of Paradigm Death and Shift: Was the Arrow Impossibility Theorem Left Behind?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292361643_The_Unintended_Consequences_of_Paradigm_Death_and_Shift_Was_the_Arrow_Impossibility_Theorem_Left_Behind
Article Did Adam Smith Miss the Chance to State the Goal and Structu...
Article The Unintended Consequences of Paradigm Death and Shift: Was...
Sharing my most recent publications as food for thoughts:
Adam Smith and Karl Marx Under the Sustainability Eye: Pointing Out and Comparing the Sustainability Gaps Behind these Two Great Simplification Failures
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299885202_Adam_Smith_and_Karl_Marx_Under_the_Sustainability_Eye_Pointing_Out_and_Comparing_the_Sustainability_Gaps_Behind_these_Two_Great_Simplification_Failures
Understanding the Death and Paradigm Shift of Adam Smith’s model: Was Going Green the Only Option? If not, Is This Option the Most Sustainable One?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299882613_Understanding_the_Death_and_Paradigm_Shift_of_Adam_Smith%27s_model_Was_Going_Green_the_Only_Option_If_not_Is_This_Option_the_Most_Sustainable_One
The Unintended Consequences of Paradigm Death and Shift: Was the Arrow Impossibility Theorem Left Behind?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299879934_The_Unintended_Consequences_of_Paradigm_Death_and_Shift_Was_the_Arrow_Impossibility_Theorem_Left_Behind
Paradigm Evolution and Sustainability Thinking: Using a Sustainability Inversegram to State Paradigm Death and Shift Expectations under Win-Win and No Win-Win Situations
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298353982_Paradigm_Evolution_and_Sustainability_Thinking_Using_a_Sustainability_Inversegram_to_State_Paradigm_Death_and_Shift_Expectations_under_Win-Win_and_No_Win-Win_Situations
Article Adam Smith and Karl Marx Under the Sustainability Eye: Point...
Article Understanding the Death and Paradigm Shift of Adam Smith’s m...
Article The Unintended Consequences of Paradigm Death and Shift: Was...
Data Paradigm Evolution and Sustainability Thinking: Using a Sust...
What is green economics? Ecology reveals that nature is the best of economist to fix millions of species to a common system without out any waste or error. That is why ecology is also defined as the economics of nature. 'Modern humans' ignorantly perceived themselves as separate entities and tried to conquer nature with own 'modern economics' that created all ecological contradictions. Green economics try to understand the real human position in nature to integrate ourselves to the natural system so that our species sustain forever! However, this is possible only if the present generation is ready to sacrifice many of the economic benefits that we are enjoying currently to get integrated into to nature's economics with human creativity! This is a herculean task involving questions of spirituality and it may be possible only after a severe set back out of natural catastrophes (human made) which demands no other option!
Dear Joseph, the question is about the choice structure of the economic man and of the green economic man, are they assumed to be the same or not?. It is not about what is green economics. Do you think the green economic man ruling green markets is an independent man as the economic man ruling traditional markets was assumed to be?
However since you seem interested in the difficult choices that need to be made to optimize the human interaction with nature I am sharing with you the following article as food for thoughts:
Thank you for participating
Substituting The More is Better Paradigm for The Less is Better Paradigm: Identifying Key Transitional Problems
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281276526_Substituting_The_More_is_Better_Paradigm_for_The_Less_is_Better_Paradigm_Identifying_Key_Transitional_Problems
Article Substituting The More is Better Paradigm for The Less is Bet...
Dear Lucio Munoz, Thank you very much for the food for thought! Being a student of ecology, I am very skeptical on what is presented as green economics. Whatever be the theoretical propositions on 'the green economic man ruling green markets' and 'the economic man ruling traditional markets' I don't find much difference between them in the practical world.
Theoretically or in mathematical or other logical forms you may be able to express a lot of differences between them, but both are the two sides of the same coin.
Compared to the economic activities of your theoretical 'economic man', your theoretical 'green economic man' has negligible impact in the current economic system of the world.
When both are depending on the totally destabilized earthly systems on the verge of a collapse, theories won't work!
When Asia is trying to achieve the consumption level of the US or Europe, I doubt, whether the 'green economic man' can emerge independence anywhere?
Economic theories based on poor ecological truth can't now save the world! Only if the ecological issues are properly understood in terms of the whole of its practical complexities, better economic solutions may emerge!
Similarly, only if the complexities of the economic issues of the world in its totality are understood, and the humans perceive the need to address the same globally as a single community, the ecological issues are going to be solved. In the current world where economic disparities are purposefully maintained for the temporary interests of certain groups, how can the world move on to global sustainability?
Therefore, our food should self criticism based on ecological wisdom than 'intellectual orgasm' based on 'ivory tower thinking' !
Since the world is in its inevitable path towards eco-tragedies what shall the economist and political scientist foresee? I am not sure, whether I have expressed my views completely! I shall try again if you kindly provide me the food of your insightful criticism, Thanking You!
Dear Joseph, with all my respect:
a) there is a clear question, yet you have contributed your thoughts without answering the question which is supposed to provide the limits of the discourse. when I see a question and I think I can contribute to it and focus my thoughts on best aswering that question;
b) you seem to have a problem with mainstream economics and you assume that because of this question I am a mainstream economists too, I am one outside the box researcher;
c) which leads me to think you have not read the papers shared, which is fine.
d) You seem to look at the issue from the human-ecological sustainability point of view, yet you seem not to know or understand that there can be a sustainability market through which ideas of that nature could be channeled;
e) all my writing taken together are to lead future generations into the sustainability market world as paradigm evolution and shift expectation points towards the sustainability way....
f) I will leave it here and politely close the discusion as you see no difference between the economic man and the green economic man, which I will take as meaning "there has been paradigm shift from traditional market to green markets, but nothing has changed in your view.
I will share with you again as food for thoughts the following article.
And again thank you for participating. and comments and wish you a nice day..
Utilitarianism, Raw Liberalism, Moral Liberalism, and True Sustainability: Basic Paradigm Foundations, Changing Assumptions, and the Evolution of Development Paradigms
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281277111_Utilitarianism_Raw_Liberalism_Moral_Liberalism_and_True_Sustainability_Basic_Paradigm_Foundations_Changing_Assumptions_and_the_Evolution_of_Development_Paradigms
Article Utilitarianism, Raw Liberalism, Moral Liberalism, and True S...
Good day everyone
I am sharing here this article unpublished and you can use it as food for thoughts:
Is Environmental Externality Management a Correction of Adam Smith’s Model to Make It Environmentally Friendly and Shift it Towards Green Markets or Is It a Distortion on Top of Another Distortion?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309463581_Is_Environmental_Externality_Management_a_Correction_of_Adam_Smith%27s_Model_to_Make_It_Environmentally_Friendly_and_Shift_it_Towards_Green_Markets_or_Is_It_a_Distortion_on_Top_of_Another_Distortion
Have a nice day
Article Is Environmental Externality Management a Correction of Adam...
Dear friends, here sharing my most recent article which I trust you may find interesting in terms of food for thoughts:
If Going From Free Markets to Non-Free Markets is the Way to Go: Does This Means the End of Rational Decision Making Thinking or Is This Just a Temporary Block of a Perfect Paradigm Shift to Green Markets?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312092336_If_Going_From_Free_Markets_to_Non-Free_Markets_is_the_Way_to_Go_Does_This_Means_the_End_of_Rational_Decision_Making_Thinking_or_Is_This_Just_a_Temporary_Block_of_a_Perfect_Paradigm_Shift_to_Green_Mark
Article If Going From Free Markets to Non-Free Markets is the Way to...
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