Dear @Sundar, GM Manufacturers are trying, desperately, to trick vegans into believing GMOs are vegan friendly. GMO scientists claim the genes used to splice together GMO products that come from outside the plant kingdom (like from the animal kingdom) are really just genes, "a gene is a gene is a gene", their new saying...GMO Foods are not Vegan!

Fine article about GM in vegan food in Serbia is attached also! Detection of Genetically Modified Soya, Maize, and Rice in Vegetarian and Healthy Food Products in Serbia!

http://www.andmagazine.com/us/12903.html

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/interactive/2011/oct/20/gm-food

http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/82322.pdf

This becomes a very complicated story! Do you know the exact selection pressures from the (ancient) past that resulted in the vegetables of today?

haha -this is a really funny story. The authors are not taking biology very seriously but are either trolling with their article or they are ignorant of *evolution* and natural and existing *life*. To suggest that *DNA* can be uniquely differentiated between *vegetarian* and *animal* is already by itself a highly questionable proposition. Then to propose that there is a clear distinction in the natural (?) world between flora and fauna is to oversimplify so much so that the author must work hard on avoiding to understand anything but the most simplistic understanding of biology. The world is full of living things some of which we in everyday life take for granted being *animals* and some we take for granted being *plants*. However it has never been that simple. Life is and has always been complex, some have *tendencies* to be recognizeable as animals and some have *tendencies* to be recognizeable as plants - while plenty are recognizeable as ambiguously a little bit of both. This has been the case for a very long time.

If nothing else - what about DNA that is common to all life on earth? What kind of headlines would the authors make out of that?

Dear @Sundar, GM Manufacturers are trying, desperately, to trick vegans into believing GMOs are vegan friendly. GMO scientists claim the genes used to splice together GMO products that come from outside the plant kingdom (like from the animal kingdom) are really just genes, "a gene is a gene is a gene", their new saying...GMO Foods are not Vegan!

Fine article about GM in vegan food in Serbia is attached also! Detection of Genetically Modified Soya, Maize, and Rice in Vegetarian and Healthy Food Products in Serbia!

http://www.andmagazine.com/us/12903.html

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/interactive/2011/oct/20/gm-food

http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/82322.pdf

oh come on. Any distinction between plant and animal gene is based on ignorance of the evolution of life on earth. Seriously - also it is also ignoring all the life that exist which cannot be defined as either or. Then we have the complexity of life - both flora, fauna and ambiguous lifeforms - they are not separated from each other. This is an issue based completely on ignorance. If someone is a Vegan the reasons and boundaries of being a vegan *must* be based on some other premise - and *not* on DNA - as already *naturally* this is not a difference that can be used to categorize the life form itself. What is an animal? this is a question which requires a distinction which is not possible to base on DNA. So Vegans would need to have a more vague distinction - based on some assumptions of identifying what is a *higher* life form (again this is a seriously ambiguous issue). To say GM food is not Vegan - you could just as well say that no food is Vegan based on exactly the same argument. Just go further back in time and *natural* evolution...

And I am certainly against much of the practices promoted by the GM industry - but this particular agenda is just silly.

Every living being on Earth is somehow a product of star dust, or not? It's just depending on the scale of analysis, right?

How often does it happen that because of energy transfer between living beings vegetables will contain particles (e.g. atoms,..) that belonged to animals before?

Dear Marcel M. Lambrechts : Sherlock Holmes says  - "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

I appreciate your query - I am opening up a relevant discussion in a new query..

With regards, Sundar

GM foods are not good either for vegts or non-vegts! 

Dear Marcel,

I you read what happens with Mosanto and other such industries, you will see that the question is not "But it is better to have GM than nothing, right?" but using GM farming you are going to default and so if you do not have ordinary food, you will have any way "nothing"! Nothing either way.

I think there might be a substantial difference between the usefulness of GM food and the ethics of a company that produces GM food, or not?

Dear Marcel: A new RG query (see link) was inspired by one of your recent tweets here.. You have great thinking.. Kindly follow up the articles given in this link!! Muchas Gracias!!

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Gene_mysteries_about_Sea_Anemones

Marcel is correct - we should not fall into the trap of confusing a particular collection of companies behaviour in relation to a topic with the topic itself. As for some GM farming methods - there are examples of GM farming methods where the GM itself is not the issue but the purpose of GM is an issue. For example when the use of GM is intended to make a particular plant more resistant to poison so that farmers can spray their fields with more of a toxic - this is definitively an issue. But not because of GM - rather because of *why* GM has been used and *what* it has been used for. The real issue in this example is that the farming practices are developed purposefully to become more and more dependent on the use of toxics as opposed to support a sustainable farming practice. It is the business model that is questionable - not the topic of GM.

There are many reasons why GM foods could be advantageous. For example, a crop could be made to grow quicker, with increased protein and vitamin levels, or with less fat. An often-used argument in favour of GM crops is that drought-resistant crops could help to alleviate famine in developing countries, where low rainfall often leads to food shortages. Techniques have also been developed to make fresh produce last longer, so that it can ripen on the plant and be transported more easily with less wastage.

https://ypte.org.uk/factsheets/genetically-modified-foods/genetically-modified-foods

Indeed, it is energetically much more expensive to rear an animal for consumption that to produce a GM vegetable for consumption

Following that paradoxical  approach,  eating GM food is like eating Frankenstein.

Then, if the modifying gene is of human origin, could the vegans become cannibals?

one of the world's most knowledgeable proponents of an organic, living foods, vegan way of eating, there are three supplements that are essential to ensuring high level health and wellness. In part, requirements for these supplements stem from the sad fact that our farm soils are now weak and depleted. Man made toxins occur in our air, water and soil, requiring some extra help in our dietary in the form of these three crucial supplements. In no order of importance, they are:

Vitamin B12 -- Despite what some uninformed nutritionists say, you cannot get sufficient B12 from seaweed or other vegetable sources. A B12 deficiency can lead to Pernicious Anemia (not enough red blood cells) and the bad effects are many and various, principally affecting the nervous system and causing weakness, tingling, lack of coordination, memory and concentration problems and even paralysis. Fortunately, B12 is readily available in supplement form. The methylcobalamin and hydroxocobalamin forms of the vitamin are superior to the cyanocobalamin form.

http://www.freerangeegos.com/health.html

Vitamin B12 (also known as cobalamine) is necessary for the growth and division of cells, particularly in the case of red blood corpuscles. This vitamin is not produced in the human body and consequently must be obtained from nutrition. It occurs primarily in food products derived from animal sources, such as liver, kidneys, meat, milk and eggs. It also is found in beer.

Generally, the comparatively low amounts of B12 required are supplied by a normal diet. However, as many as 30 per cent of individuals older than 60 years may suffer from a deficit of B12. This is due to the age-related bodily decline in the ability to produce the compound known as the "intrinsic factor" that makes the vitamin metabolically accessible. A deficit of B12 may damage the nervous system and, for example, may lead to a sensation of numbness in the hands and feet, as well as to a decrease in cognitive performance. Strict vegetarians also may suffer from a deficit of vitamin B12.

Dear Krishnan - Perhaps vegetarians / vegans can directly buy B12 vitamin capsules from pharmacy with a medical prescription?? Hope this is not a problem? - Sundar

Enzymes are the key to these chemical reactions - enzymes that are predominantly produced with the help of genetically modified microorganisms. Starches are chemically bound clusters of sugar molecules found in plants. Under the right conditions, starch molecules can be broken down into sugar. This process makes it possible to obtain sugar from the starch of many different plants, rather than just sugar beets or sugar cane. This is now being done by industrial-scale starch saccharification. The most important sources of starch are maize, potatoes, and wheat.

http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/grocery_shopping/ingredients_additives/37.products_starch_corn_syrup_fructose_glucose.html

@ Sundarapandian 

I meant that , V B 12 is available free in Non veg food

Dear Krishnan, Marcel, Mahfuz & other friends:

The food that we get in international flight travel - is it normal food, instant food, organic food, or GM food - which food? (In my case, I request Asian / Indian Vegetarian Food as "food preference" when I book my tickets itself!)

Good Quality food, but I am not aware whether it is Organic..... it can be the other two

I heard of genetically modified (GM) potatoes.. Are these sold in your country?

Have you tried cooking with GM potatoes? Any other GM-vegetables?

I don't know if GM-food is approved in India.. Organic food is getting very popular in India.. I have bought organic green tea recently and I find it very good!

If vegetarianism is defined as eschewing all animal based food then nothing or no one is vegetarian.  All plants contain protists, bacteria and other nucleic acid based entities that belong in the kingdom animalia.  All herbivores, in spite of being described as vegetarian eat some animals.  They may not be able to detect them on their food but they are there.

Cost savings with maximum productivity are the fundamental reason for genetically modified food, such as savings in pesticide, labor, machinery, R&D for conventional agriculture, seed planting and protection, and other related factors.

Well, in my opinion every thing has good and bad, so is genetically modified food. Since we have limited resources (both financially and scientifically) for increasingly large population, we have to devise a plan to somehow increase food production. So far, we have still been debating on the negative of such food but no definite conclusion has been arrived yet.

Dear Barry Turner - Vegetarians have a finer class 'Vegans", and Vegans avoid all dairy-based food for some ethical reasons.

@ Barry

The term “vegetarian” is to be comprehended slightly modified; since vegetarians eat more than just vegetables. Vegetarian simply means a plant-based diet. There are several kinds of vegetarian diets, defined by what types of foods are consumed.

A strict vegetarian, a vegan, avoids all foods of animal origin, including meat, poultry, fish, dairy products, and eggs.

• Lacto-vegetarians include dairy products in their diet. Lacto-ovo- vegetarians also eat dairy products and eggs.
• Pesco-vegetarians eat fish, dairy products, and eggs along with plant foods. (We believe this is the healthiest diet for most people).

Finally, there are semi-vegetarians, who eat a little poultry along with fish, as well as dairy products and eggs.

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/feeding-eating/family-nutrition/vegetarian-diets/12-frequently-asked-questions-about-vegetarian-diet

As a practising vegetarian, I strongly welcome Prof. Krishnan's excellent write-up on vegetarianism. Some religions also - Buddhism, Jainism & some sects of Hinduism - advocate Vegetarian food to all its followers. In India, we always buy food products with a "green symbol" (veg symbol). It is nice that some bakeries sell green (veg) cakes also, and we use them for our birthday / family functions. Thank you!

all very good except this which is questionable: *Meat, poultry, and seafood are also more frequent carriers of foodborne illnesses than plant sources.*

One of the biggest cause of food born illnesses in the modern western world is actually different "vegetables" (veg and fruit) used in what we so generically call *sallad*.

 I have a problem with this statement of Krishnan - "Vegetarians tend to eat fewer calories.." I have seen some vegetarians in my family, who are very obese, and they drink a lot of soda drinks (not cans, they prefer 1 litre, 2 litre bottles etc), Potato / Banana chips in generous amount, fried items, fried snacks, lot of sweets etc. Vegetarian diet as prescribed by dieticians will be nice.

Yes I agree with Sundarapandian comment. It is not good when there are too many over-generalizations. For example - just because there are *some* vegetarian cuisine that is low in *bad* fat and *bad* cholesterol. There is plenty of it which is full of fats etc which is anything but a healthy diet. In my experience a lot of the food in restaurants for example which is sold as vegetarian is fundamentally *unhealthy* - as is the non-vegetarian food. Actually because of this I have often wondered why there is not a healthy option to choose from *instead or additional to* of a vegetarian option...

GM food can also be organic.

We have been genetically modifying food sources for at least 9,000 years and many types of fruit and vegetable are hybrids.  In animals the genetic modification also started at the beginning of animal domestication and also involved hybridisation of different sub-species.  

It is correct that people should be able to avoid food because of lifestyle choices. It is clearly unacceptable that those who have chosen not to eat meat shoud be hoodwinked into eating food that contains meat products.   Most GM vegetables are genetic variants of the 'natural' variety and the hysteria that the concept of GM raises is rarely justified.  The only morally questionable aspect of GM is where patents are abused that deny poor people access to safe and decent food.

Of course it is a mater of choice and people should be able to make up their own minds about whether to eat this stuff or not, very much like they should be able to chose to watch football or not watch it as the case might be.  

Whenever we engage in this debate there should be a little time set aside for considering the people who have little choice about when and what they eat and drink.  If we are going to talk about the ethics of choosing what we eat we of the rich, spoilt and self righteous classes of the world should give some thought to those to whom GM food is certainly better than no food.  

Dear Peter M. Bednar - Can you throw some light on your singular comment ?!

"GM food can also be organic"

As far as I know - all organic food is considered purely vegetarian!

I have attached an old lecture of mine on GM food.  It mentions how this can be used to protect crops grown in Africa where parasites can destroy a large amount of the staple food supply. 

There are a lot of side effects, because of mutations- immune system disorder, infertility, accelerated aging, adverse cholesterol level. American scientists connect this problem with appearance of allergies, malnutrition. It causes diabetes, chronic constipation,Crohn's disease, gastroesophageal reflux, cancer and autism. We can't fight with large corporations, which principle is one( everywhere): money- goods-money. I think, it's a slogan about saving humanity from starvation."Fact-checking about GMO foods" http://www.seattleorganicrestaurants.com/vegan-whole-foods/fact-checking-gmo-foods/

Thanks Barry Turner for your PPT.

Scientists are looking for traits that Mother Nature never created. Breeding plants with fish is absolutely does not occur in nature and for some might even be unethical. GM foods produced by incorporation of animal gene derived from animal DNA is non-vegan. The foods best supporting human health are those to which we have adapted over the millennia. Health concerns aside, a major reason to avoid GM foods relates to the welfare of animals. When animals are made to mature faster, grow larger, or produce more milk, they are likely to suffer in the process, as seen with the obese chickens and turkeys and overproducing dairy cows on conventional farms. Genetic engineering may further push the limits of what animals can be forced to do. The most recent study published came out of France found that feeding GMO corn over two years brought about massive tumours in rats. This has led to Russia putting a ban on all GMO-containing food products coming from Monsanto, a financially and politically powerful food production corporation, until their food safety researchers do a thorough investigation into the matter. National Academy of Sciences report 2004 noted that testing methods must be improved before firm conclusions can be drawn. GM Food provides no health benefits, and no one is sure about the risks

Dear YOGESH CHANDRA TRIPATHI - Is GM food sold in India? Kindly enlighten us..

I do not understand the distinction between scientists and mother nature - are not human beings part of the natural environment? To talk about GM Food *universally* by using specific examples is over-generalization. If we can find *one* GM food which *does* provide health benefits what excuse do you have? Denial? Nobody in the GM industry is *breeding plants with fish* that is a complete fabrication and fantasy.

*organic farming* is defined as *the farming practices which do not use ("artificial") pesticides* as part of the farming practices. In many cases pesticides are used by farmers anyway but these are (somehow) seen as acceptable as they are defined as *traditional* and often also as *natural pesticides*. Organic does not define *what* is being farmed - only how it is being farmed. Some of the *natural* (?) pesticides used can be rather and environmentally unfriendly. But usually the damage caused is assumed to be much less.

Genes can transfer from animals to plants via virus and bacteria intervention.

@Sundarapandian - In India, there is general apprehension and concern over the safety, productivity and obnoxious. Public opposition to GM trials is fuelling government indecision, stranding India’s food research in the lab. A few years ago it was illegal to grow GMO crops in India. A sharp rise in the suicide numbers has been recorded once GMOs were allowed. It is absolutely certain that there are a vast number of farmers in India that committed suicide due to the failure of Bt (GM) crops. This has been well documented in independent investigations and even documents leaked by the central government in India. The Center for Human Rights and Global Justice has estimated that in 2009 alone 17,638 Indian farmers committed suicide, or one suicide every 30 minutes. Very recently, the Ministry of Environment, Forest and Climate Change, Govt. of India. intervention demanded to stop illegal entry of Bt brinjal from Bangladesh. However, certain agencies are conducting filed trials of GM crops under monitoring of Department of Biotechnology, Govt of India. Production and marketing GM Foods in India is very limited. 

@ Peter - Breeding plants with fish is a reality. Scientists have created a frost­resistant tomato plant by adding an antifreeze gene from a cold­water fish to it. The antifreeze gene comes from the cold­water flounder, a fish that can survive in very cold conditions. Pl see the following thread:

https://paraschopra.com/publications/gm.pdf

It is very strange that people who object to genetic modification of life forms ignore the inconvenient fact that a great deal of modern medicine is based on genetic modification and that the most promising cancer treatments in the pipeline are from the field of genetics.

It is equally strange that some individuals object to the killing of animals for human benefit while taking antibiotics, substances whose very purpose is to kill animals for the benefit of humans. If anyone believes for religious reasons that killing a sheep is wrong why is it acceptable to destroy millions of Staphylococcus or E. Coli?

Cancer cells are alive, there is no doubt about that by any definition. A tumor cell can consume nutrients, they are even capable of constructing through angiogenesis a blood supply to the tumor in order that they collectively receive nourishment. They can signal to each other in order to activate efflux pumps in the presence of chemotherapy drugs. They can mutate and hybridise to evade the drugs we use to destroy them. The complexity of that behaviour places them without doubt in the living world.

We try to kill these living organisms in order to save the patient from an agonising and in most cases certain death. If is is immoral to kill living things to benefit humans does cancer treatment give rise for moral concern?

Morality is invariably selective and humans have an inordinate capacity for ignoring that which inconveniently disturbs our sense of righteousness.

Breeding plants with fish genes is definitely possible and has been done.  Peter Bednar is correct however in stating that there is no clearly definable difference between plant and animal genes so any objection to species transfer of genetic material is pure semantics.  

Multi-cellular animals have significant genetic material derived from plants and animals alike.  There is even a gene expression for non nucleic acid based pathogenic proteins that pass with frightening ease across species barriers.  The prion is neither plant nor animal but it can infect virtually all mammals with an invariably fatal neurodegenerative disorder.

We need to back away from this absurd and anachronistic taxonomy of animal and plant and consider that life is far more complex than that simple model. If genes are 'alive' then why not chemical molecules?  Why not atoms? Why not sub-atomic particles. Why not magnetism and gravity?

Barry I am one of those who has a discourse completely oposite od yours, but I have to admit your arguments are very good and it is worthwhile going deeper into it. Thanks for your contribution. 

Vilemar

I have strong reservations about GM food but they are to do with patents and the manipulation of the food supply rather than health reasons.  

There is little evidence that GM food is dangerous to people, or at least no more dangerous than organic food.  World malnutrition is however a very real danger faced by hundreds of millions at this very moment.  

The main problems are with unscrupulous patent holders and 'terminator genes' in seeds forcing people to buy new seed every year.

Thank you for your complement.  It is so refreshing that even where contributors to the thread disagree that they can do so so civilly!

I agree with many of the the propositions made by Barry. Only a comment on *breeding* I am not convinced that the concept breeding is applicable on *reproduction* e.g. production of offspring. So traditional Genetic manipulation within species and between species have been based on *breeding*. However what the GM industry is doing when they manipulate crops with changing genes - this is somewhat different from what I understand as *breeding*. While breeding itself can sometimes continue to propagate a plant - it is not what made the actual change of the plant (or animal) dna. The change did not come through breeding practices. And as Barry also mentioned some industry practices are to include a *killer gene*. So the crop *cannot* propagate.

The point that plants and animals cannot reproduce without *human manipulation* is however not new at all. Many traditional crops used in farming, including most *organic* (and non GM) cannot propagate naturally and must be artificially propagated by farmers - without the human intervention - many organic and non GM plants would die out *naturally*.

I meant that I am not convinced that the concept *breeding* is applicable on most industrial GM practices. Because the foundation is not based on *reproduction* when it comes to the actual manipulation practice.

I also do not understand those who suggest that *organic food is vegetarian*. For many *organic* farmers for example - organic farming also includes farming of animals, production of milk, production of eggs and so on. Organic eggs for example means that the chickens are fed organically grown seeds etc. In fact it does no even necessarily mean that the chickens are *free-range* - which is a different thing that can be combined - but this is not always the case. A farmer can treat his animals in a rather nasty way and still be farming *organic* animals.

I strongly recommend the article below for a new look at the plant world.

Root intelligence: Plants can think, feel and learn

New Scientist, 03 December 2014 by Anil Ananthaswamy

The desire to designate life forms as plant or animal is a throwback to the taxonomy of the 18th century or at least to pre DNA science and has little value today.  In the New Scientist article above a fascinating look is taken of plant 'behaviour' in which the distinction between plant and animal has far less meaning than commonly believed.

The Ediacaran fauna (or flora) are a fascinating group of creatures/plants from the Precambrian and there is still some debate as to whether or not they are animals or plants.  Some of them led lives clearly similar to annelid worms, some more closely to shallow water plants.  We will never get to examine their DNA as it is not possible to find it is 650 million year old soft bodied life forms.  It is even mooted that the Edicaran fauna/flora were neither plant nor animal and it is quite possible that there is no distinction in multi cellular life forms that early in evolution.

The current fear of 'animal' DNA being put into plants seems to be a religious or ideological based issue rather than a scientific matter.  Since 'animal' DNA is quite readily assimilated into plant tissue it is clearly not at all alien to them and must also be a natural process.  It is quite amazing how humans need to have an artificial order in which plants must be distinct from animals and process are seen to be natural or artificial.  This is more to do with satisfying belief than it has to do with science.

We are all products of evolution and we contain vestigial tissue at multi-cellular level and at the biochemical level from that process, as do all other living creatures on Earth.  

Vegan dieters avoid all foods derived from animals. Vegans do not eat meat, poultry, seafood, eggs or dairy foods. They also avoid food products containing gelatine, an ingredient derived from animal collagen. The issues, of greater concern to vegetarians, are plants which have had animal genes inserted to provide some property which would not be possible through conventional crossbreeding. The resulting vegetable is no longer a pure vegetable, but instead a chimaera with properties taken from the original plant, plus some additional characteristics from an animal.

I still struggle with the logic of vegans and vegetarians.  I have encountered people from these groups who proselytise these belief systems almost as if they were in themselves religious doctrines.  

I understand that people are disturbed by cruelty to animals and for their own moral reasons eschew the consumption of meat but to suggest that all should be vegetarian is illogical in that it necessitates cruelty to animals.

If all humans were vegetarian we would have to wipe out vast numbers of animals since they would represent a threat to our food supply.   We could not tolerate vast herds of ruminants migrating over our fields and eating our vegetables.  Domesticated ruminants would have to be exterminated to prevent them from returning to wild types, multiplying and destroying our crops.   

Vegetarianism only works as an ethos while the majority still eat meat.  

Yogesh

It is possible for genetic material from plants and animals to be exchanged and this happened in the earliest stages of evolution.  Eukaryotes are symbiosis derived nucleated organisms and arose from symbiotic relationships forming between distinct species in early cellular evolution.  At this stage there was no distinction between animal and plant and at the genetic level that is still largely true.  See attached paper

Vegetarians and Vegans should stop worrying about eating animals.  Plant material contains protists that will almost certainly be classified as Kingdom Animalia.  Anyone eating plants is eating these organisms too.