In my opinion, an outstanding CV is not the only condition for success in a market & in good contribution to society. The individual's personality or character plays an important role besides the qualification. While I was a student in England, I noticed that my university did not encourage students to become "book worms" :) or mobile libraries. The student was motivated to study as well as to socialize.

A person, who is "workaholic" in terms of reading & research may reach a stage of becoming very "dull" & such person may repel his/her employer. In short, a pleasant honest personality may be as important as qualification or may be more sought after.

Thank you Abdul, you are right, but... between graduates from the same grade and university? Do not we continue to put ratings on subjects per student (type A, B, ...)?

In my opinion, an outstanding CV is not the only condition for success in a market & in good contribution to society. The individual's personality or character plays an important role besides the qualification. While I was a student in England, I noticed that my university did not encourage students to become "book worms" :) or mobile libraries. The student was motivated to study as well as to socialize.

A person, who is "workaholic" in terms of reading & research may reach a stage of becoming very "dull" & such person may repel his/her employer. In short, a pleasant honest personality may be as important as qualification or may be more sought after.

OK. Take the time you need...Thanks!

To what extent do these degrees reflect abilities to collaborate to solve a problem, as is the case in work environment?

You're right, dear Nizar.

When former students make me a visit, I find that rarely average rating of his/her record matches his career and I've come to ask if really the qualifications to serve more than to "ordain". Would not it be more appropriate to put fit and unfit?

Thank you for your prompt and appropriate opinion.

Regards.

Yes, Marcel...good question.

Thanks a lot!

Dear Abdul, from the point of view you mention, seems successful qualification. Thanks!

Universities are getting bigger and bigger. You cannot tailor a curriculum based on individual needs. That's why curriculum is prepared according to inclusive disciplines grouped by "schools", eg., Humanities, Natural Sciences, Social Sciences, Business Administration, etc.. In a good university, students can cross disciplinary boundaries and earn "minor specialties" that will enrich their overall education. Employers usually expect to get CVs from good students, but they look for more: an education that is at the same specialized and diverse; a student that has done community work, has published in both peer-reviewed journals and daily newspapers, people who speak more than one language, who have traveled, and who have worked, full or part-time, during their student years. Recruiters hate pedantic candidates, people who expect to become instant leaders because they know "more" than the rest or because they've had had a better education (whatever that may mean), and candidates who speak poorly about their university or about prior jobs. Negative comments are never welcome. CVs must never be inflated or sound incredible unless the candidate has letters of recommendation from people who can vouch for what the candidate says he or she has done. Candidates must show wit when asked about their everyday situation, compassion for whatever situation is happening in the world that ethically would demand compassion, respect for others who do not share their opinion, enthusiasm for new or challenging employment situations, and commitment to improving his or her talents and skills. A course transcript that shows that a candidate has taken too many different courses will seem capricious, easily bored and apt to leave the job in a short time. I have recruited people a few times and it is not an easy task. An interview is always necessary. CVs alone cannot give you a complete portrait of a candidate. CVs may only serve for screening out those who evidently do not qualify for a job.

Dear C. Lewis, if, as you say, it is common to hire people first temporarily, giving them the opportunity to perform, I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate that the system indicated only if the person is graduated or not, and the company decided after that period test.

Thanks a lot.

Regards.

Hello, Monserrat! Thank you for inviting me to participate in answering this question!

Universities are getting bigger and bigger. You cannot tailor a curriculum based on individual needs. That's why curriculum is prepared according to inclusive disciplines grouped by "schools", eg., Humanities, Natural Sciences, Social Sciences, Business Administration, etc.. In a good university, students can cross disciplinary boundaries and earn "minor specialties" that will enrich their overall education.

Employers usually expect to get CVs from good students, but they look for more: an education that is at the same specialized and diverse; a student that has done community work, has published in both peer-reviewed journals and daily newspapers, people who speak more than one language, who have traveled, and who have worked, full or part-time, during their student years. Recruiters hate pedantic candidates, people who expect to become instant leaders because they know "more" than the rest or because they've had had a better education (whatever that may mean), and candidates who speak poorly about their university or about prior jobs. Negative comments are never welcome.

CVs must never be inflated or sound incredible unless the candidate has letters of recommendation from people who can vouch for what the candidate says he or she has done. Candidates must show wit when asked about their everyday situation, compassion for whatever situation is happening in the world that ethically would demand compassion, respect for others who do not share their opinion, enthusiasm for new or challenging employment situations, and commitment to improving his or her talents and skills. A course transcript that shows that a candidate has taken too many different courses will make such candidate seem capricious, easily bored and apt to leave the job in a short time.

I have recruited people a few times and it is not an easy task. An interview is always necessary. CVs alone cannot give you a complete portrait of a candidate. CVs may only serve for screening out those who evidently do not qualify for a job. When a candidate I have screened out insists on getting an interview, I grant an interview. I have had very good surprises. Sometimes behind a bad or mediocre CV there is a very good candidate. Taking some risk may prove to be worthwhile. 

Abdul is right. Universities are putting probably too much in the hands of accreditation agencies which are homogenizing education across countries and across the world, and that might develop into a sort of "bland" education that is not good for every venue.

In response to Nizar's concern, education should provide for book worms and workaholics and somehow lead them away from a solipsistic attitude towards the world, but that tendency is usually a personality trait and no one can do anything about the "workaholic spirit", so to say, which is actually pure narcissism. And, Nizar, you are right. Workaholics are not good colleagues because they tend not to share responsibility and usually get angry when others do not work as hard, even if those others have not been asked to to what the workaholic has voluntarily done. Sharing in the workplace is essential. An employee should not take away another's responsibilities.

Dear Lilliana

Thank you for a very comprehensive answer. And precisely because of their accuracy, I think a student is much more than his/her cv in degree and therefore whether the education system just says it is or not graduated in specific specialties, it would indicate that their degree is only one step, not the only step, and it will be sending the responsibility of the rest of their training, don`t you think?

Regards.

Dear Monserrat, that is why the CV is never enough for deciding whether a person is a good candidate for a job. While searching for someone to do a specific job, I have stumbled upon a candidate in whose interview has had an idea better than mine for the job. I have modified the job description and recruited this candidate and it has worked splendidly. Oh, that is always a great surprise, meeting someone who may improve your expectations of what you need for your own business. But that is a miracle. And with miracles, I take risks. Yeah!

Dear Liliana.

How good it is when someone is much more than your cv ... from here my question.

The eternal classification and comparison between humans only leads us to consider a miracle, as you say, something that is more common than we accept: the cv really shows very little of someone, much less their qualifications.

Thanks a lot!!

Philadelphia, PA

Dear Hernandez-Lopez,

Thanks for your invitation to comment on this question. I though to contribute a quotation from Susan Haack, on academic hiring:

What drives academic hiring, she says, is not the merit and quality of candidates so much as the internal and “corrupt” politics of academicians. “The hiring process is too often less a straightforward if ill-informed and clumsily conducted effort to identify the best candidate than an unseemly struggle of greed and fear.”

She continues:

Greed: we want someone who will improve the standing of the department, who has contacts from which we might benefit, who will willingly do the teaching we’d rather not do, who will publish enough so the tenure process will go smoothly. Fear: we don’t want someone so brilliant or energetic that they make the rest of us look bad, or compete too successfully for raises and summer money, or who will vote with our enemy on controversial issues. We look, in short, for someone who “fits in.” (The foam-rubber PR term is “collegiality.”)

---End quotation

The quotation comes from Haack's book, Confessionals of a Passionate Moderate.

I wonder if this might provoke some comments or discussion. The requirement of "fitting in," is especially onerous in cases where there is pre-existing corruption, political favoritism, nepotism, insider trading, etc. Such people, we expect, want very much to cover their trails or past deeds. In the extreme, what is wanted is an accomplice. 

H.G. Callaway

I think there are many answers to the question, including sometimes yes and sometimes no.

The normal way of finding a job, certainly in industry, but I think also in academia, is to have your CV noticed. That's usually step one.

An alternative step one is to have met the right person, or people, and THEN be asked to send in your CV. But this would involve serendipity, so you should not count on it.

There are too many people and too many potential employers, I think, to allow for completely dismissing the initial, time-efficient filter that the CV provides. The CV gets your foot in the door, usually. But as others have said, CVs can be misleading, so the interview, and often a probationary period in the job, are very crucial steps too.

By the way, I have benefitted myself, one time, from the "serendipity" method. It does leave me a little bit with a sense of having "cheated," but all worked out well regardless. Ultimately, whatever you do, you have to prove yourself over the long haul anyway.

I thought the quotes in H.G. Callaway's post are most revealing. Very interesting!

Montserrat -

I noted that Marcel mentioned the importance of problem solving - if I missed that in someone else's contribition also, I apologize - and I think that is very important.  Unfortunately, as I heard somewhere, "School is a conveyor belt to conformity."  When you look at someone's academic record, it may not tell you much. 

Cheers - Jim

 Commenting on the brilliant contribution of Dr. Artur Braun: 

An honest smart young guy, with a good CV & strong character, applied for a career in a certain rich country in our region. In the job interview, the boss was there to participate in the evaluation process. He asked the guy: "What is your ambition if you join us ?". The guy answered : "Honestly, to take over your post".

Of course, the guy was rejected. I think that the guy tried to impress the boss by his honesty but was misunderstood. Had he added "after you are promoted" to his reply, his chances would have been probably better!

This is a very intelligent and nicely flagged off question , I must appreciate you dear . This is perhaps the most desired void that we have created in our students  of present day . Such classification , infact , should not have existed at all,  in our education system , regardless of geographical boundary . This is a kind of discriminatory policy in our education system that ha sled to many kinds of social problems , this subject is better , that subject is better, and above all , earning a suitable job through such options of subject selection is another very bothering issue. I feel , apart from capacity , building , character building , personality building , developing professionalism, earning a suitable job after completing education is the most important aspect of current day education , which I feel has failed miserably , especially with respect to securing a timely job.  

Hello. A super good question and also agreed with Mr. Anoop Kumar's sound and elaborative answer. 

This is one of the problems faced by many individuals and unfortunately in this global era of competition, you are very likely to miss out a talent just because the piece of paper is not with him (i.e. the CV). I have seen people who were graded as one of the worst of students but they are doing better than many top rated individuals and I personally feel that the discrimination must be discouraged and stopped  

Perhaps we should abandon the very idea of classification itself ?  If we are not ready or cannot make it happen, then we have to live with whatever is in place, right?

Just a point. I am quite confused on why is that universities ask students to make their e-Porfolios with complex fill-up practices by telling them a 'quasi' lie that "it can be used for job-hunting." I never heard of any case that they were useful.  Companies and schools only seem to care about school names, majors and printed degrees.

I think the classification of students with a qualification for subject remain useful in today's society, because the study field is very diversificated... the students area of interest are different... 

Some reviews might be. Rating is never completely reliable. So what? We must try to be objective and well teach - in context. Not just "unrelated" facts.

I think that a classification of students with a qualification for subject still remains a useful tool Montserrat. May not be 100% but mostly. In my opinion it gives the individual/student a basic certifcate of where s/he comes from and either move on or divert to emabark on a different career oriented professional qualification as opposed to academia  - kind of multi-disciplinary as we speak more or so often nowadays. 

NO.

Dear H.G. Callaway,

I do not know if I understand correctly. You mean to get that "accomplice" the system needs a classification system of potential co-workers?

Thanks!

Dear Albert.

I agree with you when you say Ultimately, whatever you do, you have to prove yourself over the long haul anyway. For this reason, I think the classification in each subject during degree is not something relevant about graduated.

Thank you!

Dear Artur

You're right in what you comment .... I guess my question has arisen because I need to find another evaluation system. I do not like to categorize people. I know it's utopian, but reality tells me the evaluation system has become old.

Thanks for your clear answer.

Exact! Completely agree with you, James!

Thanks a lot.

Cheers.

Very good your last contribution, Nizar. Many thanks again.

Regards.

Dear Ivo Carneiro

Thank you. I agree completely with what you comment.

The current evaluation system in most cases does not reflect the student's ability to what can be called "fend in the life". Many times we do not teach them "to fly"; rather, we join his/her wings of a rating that reflects little of them. So I say do not believe in this system.

Regards.

Dear Anoop Kumar.

Thank you for your words so generous to my question, and so clearly express what I tried to convey with each new comment that has come to me to read each and every one of the speeches of colleagues who have so kindly taken part before in the question . I was excited to read your answer much what I've been feeling the last few years of teaching.

Regards.

Thanks for your input, dear Haroon, and for your kind words to my question. Unfortunately, I think we can all tell a similar experience to the one you mention, so many feel that something must / have to improve.

Regards.

Dear Jae

You have a lot right about the ePortfolios. It is something else to add to my "list of nonsense attitudes" in university archaic routine.

Thanks a lot!

Dear Laszlo-Attila

Perhaps in some studies it can still be useful, I do not say no.

Thanks.

Yes Josef, I guess so.

Thank you!

Yes Vidhura, but as you say, if the rating is necessary, maybe the change is to be made in the orientation and how to teach.

Thank you!

Regards.

Dear Niranjan

You can not be more clear and concise to give an answer.

Thank you very much!

Regards.

I believe that educational degree should widen the logic and knowledge and enhance and improve the employability skills. Employee needs to be persistent and has to exert hard efforts to success in work life.

Dear Montserrat

The classification of students with a qualification for subject remain useful in today's society -

For a society, it is necessary to have excellent students to represent their expertise.

For a country, a mixed group of skilled and excellent students / teachers / workers with the right attitude are needed to progress it to the next world branded "development" category

For those with excellent cv, it is high time to buck up and live up to the suggested cv by boosting their appropriate attitude and skill set .

For those with minimal cv achievement, we need to look on other educational /  modular area where the students / teachers / workers could excel beyond those with excellent cv.

For the educational system, it needs to be boosted with well-rounded modules that cover Attitude, Knowledge and Skill (ASK) theory.

The ASK theory involves the students / teachers / workers to be equipped with the necessary Attitude, set Skill and relevant Knowledge (excellent cv) .

These are easily taught in my country. And we are doing them still. That is how we progress despite being a little red dot city / country / nation!

This is the reason why the classification of students with a qualification for subject remain useful in today's society not to side-lined others but to integrate those lacking in certain areas to churn it into one whole great person / society / country.

Best regards - Mariam

Dear Artur

It would be great you to tell us here when this book is published. I think you'll have some readers RG.

Thank you for your new answer.

Regards.

Dear Mahfuz

Yes, I think we all agree on the weaknesses of this system and should be improved.

Thank you for your answer.

Regards.

Dear Mariam

Thank you for your comprehensive response.

I agree with you that if the qualification by subject serve to detect weaknesses and improve them, then still useful. Unfortunately, I do not think I always see from that point of view, but as a form of "classified" students in a way that not only can condition their future success, but that does not help them improve.

Best regards.

I hardly see long term benefits of such classification of students on the basis of subjects , more damaging than remunerative , as far a s career prospect is concerned . We need our education simply job oriented , otherwise side effects of unemployment will ruin the so called concept of novel citizenship will be lost.  

Dear Anoop Kumar

I'm afraid I do not see those benefits.

Best regards.

Some people merely acquired knowledge, read for examinations and passed without retaining what they have been taught and could not apply whatever they studied; they could not also defend their degree[s].The employers should not rely on CV alone but those seeking employment should also face further tests as experience has shown that those that have lower degrees perform better than those with higher qualifications in the same discipline.

No, certainly not. The usual subjects rating system is outdated and very limited. Real knowledge can not be measured with numbers in response to a test. Is a university degree a guarantee of professional competence, creativeness and collaboration capacity? Of course not. But we must fight the mirage that everything good starts in a garage.

Dear Ogbalu

I totally agree with that comment. Employers are the ones to be clearer than the level of a cv does not necessarily imply the ability to work and contribute to the company of the holder of such cv.

Thank you for your answer.

Regards.

Dear Juan

I liked very sorry about that "But we must fight the mirage that everything good starts in a garage." Certainly, this is also misleading.

Thanks a lot!

Regards.

Depends on your job. If you are applying as a laborer then the CV, education or experience based is equal. They will be looking more at your value system and work ethic.

If you want to get hired into a specific profession, education is a must and the experience is a must. They are equal in a more critical outline. Its not fluff when you are looking at a profession, it is critiqued to match exact job description.

However, the argument still stands in job outlook and resume: How can you ask a fish to swim if there is no water? If they can't get the experience they need then eventually you will run out of bigger fish to make your pond "better." Eventually, the little guy needs to grow.

Dear Chloe

In my question, I wanted to include more moral aspect than strictly professional. I do not like having to classify someone because, after many years as a teacher, I have learned that often this classification limits but a low level of knowledge. So I bet on a system that is based on "fit" and "not suitable".

Thanks for your answer, and I welcome you to "My RG"

Regards.

Dear colleague,

You have a question sent to us in RG: "Does the classification of students with a qualification for subject remain useful in today's society"?

It is necessary for the time or not, it is very dfficult to give an opinion that the classification of students with a qualification for subject to remain useful in today's society or not. I have years, as professor by full time or by part time that I give a teaching in some universities, and often I am with her opinion and rest I am not your opinion! ... You may say why is that so? ! ...

When I'm with your opinion I'm with the intensibve objective, so modernity, while when I am not your opinion, I am with the extensive objective, ie the classic, ... probably needs a rest ...

Let us to leave for the time of the near future that ...

The time is for intensive objective ... 

This time, dear Bashkim, I must admit I do not know if I understand exactly their opinion. I you indicate that sometimes agree with my opinion and sometimes not. On those occasions when you do not agree with me, it is because you accept the established rules of the current education system or because you find positive aspects in it?

In any case, thanks for such a nuanced answer as always!

Regards.

Dear Montserrat,

Okay, more or less I'm thinking that we should have another form of classification of students for their qualification for subjects remain useful in today's society ...

Sincerely

Now that I've understood you, dear Bashkim Mal.

The truth is that I have some time thinking about this new system and maybe someday achieve that other colleagues stop seeing the difficulty of changing and can capture the social benefits of change.

Thank you very much for your clarification.

Best regards!

Welcome, Smitha.

I totally agree with you especially in what you refer regarding that attitude determines altitude than you can reach. But because I am kept in accordance with you on this idea, rejecting a system that can question, with a qualifying score, the attitude of a good learner.

Thanks!

Regards.

I agree with many of the comments above, but would like to add that sometimes socio-political forces and structural inequalities work against some members of society - for example, through structures that are inadvertently, and sometimes overtly, racist or sexist 

You're right, Fran, but precisely because we are aware of these inequalities we have to avoid them to the extent of our possibilities in our work, family, personal context. At least this is my opinion. Many thanks! Regards.