In a 2005 book - now posted in Research Gate (see the link below) - the authors (led by Dr. Armando Freitas da Rocha) proposed an original model of quantum computing in the brain carried by calcium ions. Ten years later, the concept independently reappears in a convincing new paper (see Abstract below). I thank Chris Nunn for calling my attention to this paper, and congratulate Dr. Freitas da Rocha for his ingenious and visionary work!
Front. Mol. Neurosci., 16 April 2014 | doi: 10.3389/fnmol.2014.00029
Basis for a Neuronal Version of Grover's Quantum Algorithm
Kevin B. Clark1,2*
1Research and Development Service, Veterans Affairs Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System, Los Angeles, CA, USA
2Complex Biological Systems Alliance, North Andover, MA, USA
Abstract
Grover's quantum (search) algorithm exploits principles of quantum information theory and computation to surpass the strong Church–Turing limit governing classical computers. The algorithm initializes a search field into superposed N (eigen)states to later execute nonclassical “subroutines” involving unitary phase shifts of measured states and to produce root-rate or quadratic gain in the algorithmic time (O(N1/2)) needed to find some “target” solution m. Akin to this fast technological search algorithm, single eukaryotic cells, such as differentiated neurons, perform natural quadratic speed-up in the search for appropriate store-operated Ca2+ response regulation of, among other processes, protein and lipid biosynthesis, cell energetics, stress responses, cell fate and death, synaptic plasticity, and immunoprotection. Such speed-up in cellular decision making results from spatiotemporal dynamics of networked intracellular Ca2+-induced Ca2+ release and the search (or signaling) velocity of Ca2+ wave propagation. As chemical processes, such as the duration of Ca2+ mobilization, become rate-limiting over interstore distances, Ca2+ waves quadratically decrease interstore-travel time from slow saltatory to fast continuous gradients proportional to the square-root of the classical Ca2+ diffusion coefficient, D1/2, matching the computing efficiency of Grover's quantum algorithm. In this Hypothesis and Theory article, I elaborate on these traits using a fire-diffuse-fire model of store-operated cytosolic Ca2+ signaling valid for glutamatergic neurons. Salient model features corresponding to Grover's quantum algorithm are parameterized to meet requirements for the Oracle Hadamard transform and Grover's iteration. A neuronal version of Grover's quantum algorithm figures to benefit signal coincidence detection and integration, bidirectional synaptic plasticity, and other vital cell functions by rapidly selecting, ordering, and/or counting optional response regulation choices.
Book The Brain: From Fuzzy Arithmetics to Quantum Computing
The answer is NO. That should suffice for closing this thread :)
Anyone who has witnessed terrible suffering of physicists working with qubits in different techniques, such as superconducting flux qubits, quantum dots in cavities, NV centers in diamond etc, or entangling Rb atoms suspended by laser beams in ultra-high vacuum etc, understands that decoherence takes its toll at any temperatures higher than micro Kelvin and that performing even a single Hadamard or two takes almost a science fiction even in most controlled environments that cost millions of dollars. Brain, that blob of slime doing quantum computation at room temperature? No way.
Of course not all quantum effects are irrelevant in brain. For example, existence of atom is onlz possible because of quantum effects. But let's not get carried away.
Besides, please note that speed of the Grover algorithm is a myth. No one takes into account the time and number of operations required to create an entangled dictionary, the object that is to be searched through! If this is taken into account, I believe, the quicksort is an easy winner.
Dear Mario, thanks for your clear answer, but the existence of practical problems is not a decisive argument against theoretical possibilities. Of course the brain as a whole is not a coherent quantum system, but as you admit some quantum effects may be playing an important role in brain function. The issue of temperature is not well solved yet: what is necessary for quantum computing, low temperature or low entropy? The fact that successful quantum computers (using calcium ions or other elements) operate on very low temperatures is not an argument against quantum computing at biological temperatures, since we do not know if the decisive factor is temperature itself. There is nothing in the Kielpinski et al model (see link below) that cannot be implemented in a living brain!
http://www.nist.gov/pml/div684/upload/Wineland-Nature-417.pdf
Very interesting question and answers. There are several takes on this, and although you have a very valid point Mario there are perhaps some other valid ways of looking at this.
All kinds of people have commented on the issue. If you look at the timescales of events in the brain, there are indeed very highly longer than those of decoherence. The action 'distances' in the brain are also much longer than the usual distances over which quantum processes take place. Some of the analyses I've read on this could however be extrapolated 'as are' to other experimental set-ups, away from the brain (such as some double slit set-ups), and would lead to a conclusion that these experiments cannot work - but, the problem is, they do.
Some have described quantum effects in the brain by processes involving smeared out wave functions. Because some wave functions associated with data exchange can smear out, communications between ions do not always necessarily involve the immediately facing synapse when a neuron fires. Harris Evan Walker has made a couple of interesting calculations on that. Generally speaking, I would be wary of absolute yes and no's in science: a lot of processes have built-in thresholds of probability rather than absolute barriers, especially in the quantum world where such things as tunnel effects etc. routinely intervene, and where the numbers involved are so huge that some rare fluke events can become routine (to the extent that these rare fluke events are in fact used in electronic applications) ....
Agree with Mario, with the objection that all that's impossible inside of a human biological brain is controllable and not suffering, inside a robotic bio-clone of a human-like brain.
—g
I think there are two levels of information processing here. First is the question whether there are quantum operations from which conscious mind can benefit in terms of faster information processing: noone will convince me in that. Note that massive parallel classical information processing of neural network is already much more powerful than Boolean logic approach.
But there is another, deeper level. For example protein folding and unfolding where parts of the same molecule come into close interaction where quantum effects (bonds, etc) are important.
What is a puzzle to me is that human genome sequence, taken into account that each base carries 2 bits of information is by far too small to uniquely describe building of a human, notably the brain only. Brain contains 10^9 neurons (forgive me if that number is wrong, neurobiologists vary it all the time) each being connected with 5000 synapses. The number of combinations to make a brain thus exceeds almost infinitely the information contained in the whole human genome, which means that genome cannot describe the brain alone, much less the whole body. However if genome is not looked just as a computer register of bits but a s a quantum information container, then there would be plenty of information...
Then there is a question of DNA and protein duplication. Everybody describes it as a deterministic classical process, one base attracts its opposite from a sea of free molecules, and it seems not to be any quantum processing in that. I think that processes at a molecular level are much better candidates for quantum processing in human body and that is definitely a place to look first.
Dear Mario, the more promising proposals of quantum coherence in the living brain are based on molecular and ionic processes, please see for instance the paper at the link below
http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/S0219635214400081
@Mario:
> What is a puzzle to me is that human genome sequence,
> taken into account that each base carries 2 bits
> of information is by far too small to uniquely
> describe building of a human, notably the brain only.
The genome does not contain the description
of a human brain, it contains the instructions
how to build a brain.
Regards,
Joachim
BTW, an experimental trace of quantum effects in the brain would be the observer-generated quantum Zeno effect that has been ascertained in lab experiments.
There are so many 'quantum effects ' in biology - see for instance Luca Turin's 2011 paper on how humans' ability to smell about a trillion odors stems from a QM process in the nose - an ability that could never arise through the traditional view of our 450-odd 'lock and key' receptors alone.
Dear Andrey, please explain why you call "quantum"a quaternary code (that can be decomposed into a binary one).
Excellent remark - there is no digital signal inside biological structure, a digital approximation is our model
Decomposing, deciphering, decoding or decrypting is cultural level. It proposes finite languages. It is not the case in human body. Even radar systems use analog computations in some critical cases. We should certainly die with digital computations in critical life situations.
To the comment of H Chris Ransford.
Indeed, large quantum systems like double slit experiment can survive decoherence at least for a few nanoseconds, the time enough for light to propagate through the system and reach the detectors/emulsion/whatever, but I do not think that this was the original question. At least we should define better what is being asked: what exactly is meant by quantum calculation? Let me explain.
The double slit experiment consist in generating one qubit and performing pass / no pass experiment that eventually generates one out of two possible outcomes with equal probabilities. This whole experiment is nothing but a giant quantum random bit generator. Now, random bits are notoriously known for not containing any information about anything in the whole Universe, therefore they cannot be a result of any meaningful calculation. So this is a bad example, and I am sure that any other example of a quantum process that can work at room temperature is NOT what is meant by the original question to this thread.
Of course, we can always adopt the tautological approach in which:
1. any system is a quantum system
2. propagation through time of any quantum system IS quantum computation
3. therefore brain does quantum computation. For that matter, a vase sitting on my table also does quantum calculation.
But again, I do not think this was the idea of the original question. The question is: what was?
Dear Mario, your criticisms are welcome here. I have tried to address this kind of problem in my publications, and also in RG discussions. Possibly my question here was not sufficiently precise, because I am not interested in quantum coherence for information processing, but as a coordinating mechanism that supports cognitive and affective processes in the brain. In another RG thread, I was criticized for the use of another term, "quantum-like", and for this reason I will not use it here. Let me rephrase the question this way:
Could calcium ions (in water solutions) instantiate recoherent states in the brain to support cognitive and affective processes?
These recoherent states can last for a few nanoseconds, and be destroyed by decoherence, and then reappear for another nanosecond time period, and so on. The recoherent state does not need to last more than a few nanoseconds, because the brain can use these flashes of coherence to support a mental process. In my approach, these brief periods of coherence have the function of supporting feelings (not cognitive processes containing the transfer or processing of classical information).
There are no analog languages, Andrey (I don't mean language of art and so on). All languages are digital by definition.
In "Russian immigrants" the main is immigrants. Of course, any immigrant to survive must think.
I am not linguist, Andrey. I know and mean only formal mathematical languages.
For those who did not believe in large-scale ion-trap quantum computing at room temperature
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38811255
Matthew Fisher´s new approach: " The hallmarks of quantum computers lie in the behaviors of the infinitesimal systems of atoms and ions, which can manifest "qubits" (e.g. "spins") that exhibit quantum entanglement. Multiple qubits can form networks that encode, store and transmit information, analogous to the digital bits in a conventional computer. In the quantum computers we are trying to build, these effects are generated and maintained in highly controlled and isolated environments and at low temperatures. So the warm, wet brain is not considered a conducive environment to exhibit quantum effects as they should be easily "washed out" by the thermal motion of atoms and molecules.
However, Fisher asserts that nuclear spins (at the core of the atom, rather than the surrounding electrons) provide an exception to the rule.
"Extremely well-isolated nuclear spins can store—and perhaps process—quantum information on human time scales of hours or longer," he said. Fisher posits that phosphorus atoms—one of the most abundant elements in the body—have the requisite nuclear spin that could serve as a biochemical qubit. One of the experimental thrusts of the collaboration will be to monitor the quantum properties of phosphorus atoms, particularly entanglement between two phosphorus nuclear spins when bonded together in a molecule undergoing biochemical processes.
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-03-quantum-international-collaboration-brain-potential.html#jCp "
This is a good answer to the question Roberson Saraiva Polli
Article Computational study of cold ions trapped in a double-well potential
Why not. In the computer us on or off. So in the brain something that can give you on or off. 0 or 1
Quantum computation is not 0 or 1, Soraya! Thanks for the comment.
Any non-trivial quantum effect would play out either on the energy and / or action level, and both seem highly unlikely in a relatively macroscopic phenomenon. So I agree with Roman Poznanski
on a quantum (!) thermodynamic picture, provided that the neg-entropic aspect is also modeled, which I haven't seen so far.The question as such is a good one, and when the answer is yes it would provide support for TAM. But I think the answer is no. Perhaps Alfredo Pereira Junior could provide specifics on the calcium ion wave that would make non-trivial quantum effects plausible.
Roman Poznanski
Spin is at the subatomic level, I wonder how you can prevent the existence of spin in electrons and nucleus of the ions that generate the wave! The hydro-ionic wave is multilevel. There is no spin consideration at the macro-level, obviously. The Nielsen and Chuang approach is based on an equation that relates changes in kinetic energy of the ions (phonons) with changes in the electronic configuration and on spin distribution at the subatomic level. This is a multiscale model in the sense of Glimm and Sharp (1997), in which each scale displays a type of phenomenon. Placing a phenomenon in the wrong scale is not meaningful!
Frank van den Bovenkamp It depends on the theory that you assume. Classical Thermodynamics is macroscopic only. Classical Statistical Mechanics is restricted to closed systems approaching equilibrium or at equilibrium. The possibility of quantum effects is effective in Nicolis and Prigogine´s Non Equilibrium Thermodynamics, in which there is the principle of Order from Fluctuations. This principle allows a quantum fluctuation (constructive interference) to have a macro expression and influence. This is the basis of my proposal of Recoherence.
Roman Poznanski
Blame this problem to Madelung! The ions that compose the wave have particles that have spin. The problem is with the hydrodynamic equation, which does not follow the principles of Glimm and Sharp´s (1997) multiscale science.
Roman Poznanski
The Bohm-Hiley paper proposes a continuity betwen quantum and classical domains by means of the concept of a quantum potential (which can be zero). This approach is different from the theories I assumed in my interpretation of reality: the multiscale model of Glimm and Sharp, the nonequililbrium thermodynamics of Nicolis and Prigogine, and the quantum information and computing of Nielsen and Chuang.
Roman Poznanski
I do not have the book at home, but remember that it is in the chapter that describes physical realizations as ion-trap computers (Chapter 7).Multiscale science predicts that critical events in one scale can have effects in another scale. The concept of criticality is critical here.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
" The possibility of quantum effects is effective in Nicolis and Prigogine´s Non Equilibrium Thermodynamics, in which there is the principle of Order from Fluctuations. "
Such possibility is trivial if it is not proven, or at least theoretically worked out. I think what you mean to say, if there exists some form of non-trivial (in this context) quantum-chemical interaction, then the medium of choice to make that interesting wrt. life, mind and consciousness is a Prigogine (type) system. I.e. this would make a quantum-Prigogine system. I wonder if this idea is very novel, but at least it makes a lot of sense. Then you still would have to show how that would result in, or relate to a calcium wave. The problem however is that you're trying to use physics as a donkey to pull your philosophy cart, and that's not going anywhere. You'll have to show the physicist's physics. A single formula can replace 1000 pages philosophy.
Roman Poznanski
" copy pasting my posts incorrectly "
Maybe it's about time you finally produces a list of posts from you that I have quoted incorrectly, or better, quoted at all.
The only I can remember is that "phenomenal consciousness essentially does not exist", which as such is not new, but is to the point in the current context, and which in these wordings I attributed to you.
In the other case I suggest you drop your silly ideas about copying your posts. There's nothing from you I need or use for 4C/TAM/QFT (and btw. DAM has absolutely nothing of the specialties, so that's also one silly idea to drop).
Roman Poznanski
"I'm sure criticality is critical but not in the brain. There are too many applied mathematicians without any knowledge of neuroscience who claim phase transitions must be at work.
It is the same inexperience that is clearly seen by Frank van den Bovenkamp"
Yes, I'm inexperienced in the field of neuroscience, so I don't speak about it (also not about "phase transitions" in the brain, no idea where that comes from). And btw. that particular thread is about a mathematical model of consciousness, not of the brain.
Roman Poznanski
Ok Holarchy. It's from Koestler, but explicitly suggested by you in the current context. Matter wave in this context is totally not yours. Perhaps you didn't know that "matter wave" is the standard physics term for the de Broglie phase wave? It's obviously the latter I've always referred to.
" Ask Alfredo if your mismash is nothing but DAM "
My mismash was recommended, endorsed and promoted by you all the while without reservation (perhaps because you thought it was a tribute to your ideas - it is not, sorry), while you discredit DAM. So...
All this childishness aside, the underlying problem is that you seem to have missed the reason for it: completely irrationally discrediting stuff because it is "Hindu". I didn't want to play the Iran card, so I just proved that your own theory is very Hindu like. That is, the only thing that distinguishes Atomic Microfeels from Microvita theory, is that you're still searching. The better your theory gets, the more microvita-like it will be. You could make a difference through Bohmian neg-entropy, but right that aspect I've not seen so far.
Roman Poznanski
Matter wave was first articulated by De Broglie in 1925, and has always been part of my research and models, just as all (sub) atomic particles. There's nothing special about it, rather, you can't avoid it.
E.g. in nov. 2016, I posted a project goal:
" The study of a new type of synchronous scalar field self-interaction, through which the free field produces a potential well in which massive fermions and their interactions emerge, shaping for example an entire hydrogen atom. "
(https://www.researchgate.net/project/A-new-type-of-symmetry-breaking-unlocking-the-scalar-fields-creative-potential)
There you have it first on RG (electron, resp. its matter wave being a fermion), long before I heard about your research. But again, matter resp. phase wave is just a quantum concept.
I'm sorry if you thought that even a single one of my posts was exclusively related to your research, but that's a misunderstanding. They are not. I'm using zero of your ideas, except, indeed the use of Koestlers's term Holarchy (which btw. is only illustrative). I will refer to it as "proposed by R.P. in the current context".
All that aside, I find it a matter of concern that your obvious loathing of certain cultures sends you so off the rails that you even can't take my simple suggestion to look into certain works (which don't even really have anything to do with said culture), for your own reference and benefit (because there are obvious similarities which others will sooner or later find out anyway). I'd say the one done talking would rather be me, don't you think?
Roman Poznanski
" You know something about atomic microfeels that I do not? "
Yes.
"Microvita theory is based on "pure" consciousness according to many posts and I said that before."
Which posts, and what do you mean by "pure consciousness"? The matter wave, in the full meaning of the term in the current context, is pure consciousness, and otherwise energy is your God.
Frank van den Bovenkamp and Roman Poznanski
Let´s put our big egos in the background and discuss without bad feelings. The issues we are working on are very complex and important for science in general. Those of us who are able to express the direction that research will take in the next future is more likely to be remembered by the next generations; not the one(s) who are too worried about being the champion in superficial verbal battles in RG.In regard to the question, I think that calcium ions can carry quantum computations in the living brain, but I cannot be SURE because there is a lot of controversy among the scientists. Roman refers to the strength of the magnetic field. Of course, it is not an external magnetic field; it should be the endogenous field generated by and orthogonal to bioelectrical currents in neural tissues. How strong is this field for the ions located very close to them? This is an empirical question, as many others we have here. Marcos Martinez-Banaclocha developed an interesting hypothesis in this regard some time ago.
My suggestion is to stop discussing "isms" (philosophical theories) and focus on experimental results that can confirm or refute the different scientific hypotheses!
Roman Poznanski
Your opinion about consciousness is is utterly trivial, as is mine.
YOU are the one who are making the concept of "pure consciousness" into religious dogma, because you have never studied the more advanced, truly relevant backgrounds.
There is nothing more religious about pure consciousness than about pure energy or pure action. It's just a principle inferred by its effects, only on a vaster, more comprehensive level.
If it turns out that your "materialism" is real materialism in the everyday sense, you have by definition no business with the subject of consciousness. And if (therefore) your research is in fact just an exercise to mock and disparage said backgrounds, I have no business with you.
Equally your opinion on the Higgs field is purely dogmatic. You just want it to go away, and you can't even explain why, because you know absolutely nothing about it.
Moreover, when you were still in the illusion that my model (which assumes pure consciousness in the correct, non-religious, non-dogmatic way, and also a Higgs-like field, about which I was very explicit) only existed for the affirmation of your research, you endorsed it all the time. Now that you find out that that it is totally unrelated, it is suddenly no good anymore??
This is not how things work. Also it is not in your jurisdiction what others are welcome to speak about.
The only thing you need to do is show that you can credulously model the feeling aspect of (apparent) phenomenal consciousness based on Bohmian QM / thermodynamics.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
" Of course, it is not an external magnetic field; it should be the endogenous field generated by and orthogonal to bioelectrical currents in neural tissues. How strong is this field for the ions located very close to them? "
Besides whether you're right or not, this is not how you do physics. You can't just go to wikipedia and grab some idea's together that hopefully fit your philosophy.
I've been thinking about your hydro-ionic waves. I trust the bio-psychology of it is relevant. And it's good that you explicitly look for a quantum basis for it.
In concrete terms, the only possibility I see is that the masses of the Ca ions are important (unlike those of electrons in common electrical current). The same in Roman Poznanski
's attempt for a Bohmian solution, it's only through particle masses that quantum-synergetic effects can be realized.Exactly this already happens in the de Broglie phase wave, which as you know has discrete patterns and energy levels. The (relativistic) mass is pivotal. I have always understood that as being a synergetic effect, and modeled it in detail accordingly. Like de Broglie, one could (hypothetically) ignore a Higgs (like) mechanism that actually gives the mass. In that case you need to create a physical model that creates synergy based on mass resonances. And that needs to be real physics.
In 4C/TAM/QFT, the same is done, but not on the mass level, but, you could apprx. say, on the Higgs level, while at the same time providing the characteristics of consciousness: a-causality, self-reference, self-localization.
So, you could think of a 4C/TAM/QFT implementation of the hydro-ionic wave, but that would require an altogether different level of physics engagement on your part.
Roman Poznanski
You're becoming repetitive. The only concrete "copy-paste" items you could come up with were Holarchy and matter wave, which are not even yours. No big deal.
And again, typical that only now it turns out that my model is not there for your sake, you cook up things against it. If you want to be better, then do it through better science.
Btw. 4C/TAM/QFT does not employ the Higgs mechanism, but as I said "Higgs-like" in the sense that it relates to symmetry breaking and mass generation. Higgs as such would never work, and is also controversial in physics. But you're welcome to share what Prof Giuseppe Vitiello thinks about this.
The only thing you need to do is show that you can credulously model the feeling aspect of (apparent) phenomenal consciousness based on Bohmian QM / thermodynamics.
Frank van den Bovenkamp and Roman Poznanski
Finally I see some constructive criticisms that I can answer.
My work on quantum computing with calcium ions is 20 years old, and it was done with 3 scientists, in a paper published in 2001 in Progress in Neurobiology and in the book cited in the formulation of the question.
My contribution was in the philosophy of science.
Some clarifications:
1) There is no Higgs or other high energy assumption. The theory that we based our approach was the 1997 multi-authored paper describing the Los Alamos quantum computer with trapped calcium ions ( https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9708050.pdf), which was developed by Kielpinski et al. in the paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature00784
2) All prospects of large-scale ion trap computers for personal use (PC) are in room temperature. Actual realizations of the Los Alamos model are with low temperature just because they need the ions in the ground state to be sure of what is happening with them when they receive energy (e.g. from a laser);
3) In the micro scale of ions, the interactions are described by Coulomb forces. The Kielpinski large-scale ion computer does not mention that the ions must be frozen. There are other papers that explicitly address "warm ions":
4) In living tissue, what is important is the strength of Coulomb interactions, since the energy that change the electronic distribution of calcium ions is delivered by the movement of other ions, mostly sodium and potassium moving across the axon membrane; Frank is right when recalling the consideration of concentrations of ions to generate the desired effects; the force is exerted by means of Coulomb interactions, which are very strong at the micro level!
5) Finally, my hydro-ionic hypothesis with Vera Maura Fernandes de Lima was made after that work on quantum computing with calcium ions, and does not depend on the same assumptions. The hydro-ionic wave also incorporates the "superconductivity" of hydrogen protons. Inside astrocytes, the positive site inside aquaporins filter bulk water and generate "negative water", a gel that forms a dipole with calcium ions released from the endoplasmaic reticulum. Coulomb repulsion between the cations inside the astrocyte processes generate the wave. See my paper in JIN:Article Astroglial hydro-ionic waves guided by the extracellular mat...
It is a standing wave, in which the kinetic energy passes from ions to ions without the need of material displacement. Outside the astrocyte, in the extracellular fluid, the protons blocked by aquaporin increase the concentration of these ions, influencing in the conductivity of the extracellular fluid. Together with the guiding forces ofthe extracellular matrix, the dynamics of ions influence the timing of neuronal spike trains. This is consistent with the Tasaki concept of the generation of the action potential, in which calcium ions substitute other cations (potassium).
Roman Poznanski
asked: Negentropic processes do not work by energy transfer. What do you mean by "new level" ?Negentropy is a process opposite to the increase of thermodynamic entropy, which refers to changes in the Boltzmann distribution towards equilibrium. Therefore, negentropy works by means of the action of information coupled to a physical mechanism (as in the Maxwell Demon), having the effect of generating differences in the distribution of energy in the system.
The new level is the domain of conscious experience, in which spatio-temporal episodes are formed, with the superposition and entanglement of features, corresponding to what Crick called conscious binding. The features are decoherent macrostates distributed in the brain (e.g., face recognition in the temporal cortex, spatial orientation in the parietal cortex, etc.). These features are bound together in conscious episodes, The physical reality of conscious episodes is located in fractal dimensions nested within the 4D dimensions of the nervous system.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
Roman Poznanski
: "What is the point of this ancient stuff shoved in our faces? "I'm mainly interested in the possibility that the hydro-ionic wave is specifically and measurably related to feelings, and I trust that this is not trivial, and to see if that fits into a mathematical model of consciousness whereby I'm specifically interested in fractality and/or non-linear synthesis.
" It is a standing wave, in which the kinetic energy passes from ions to ions without the need of material displacement. "
Well, kinetic energy IS material i.e. massive displacement, so I guess you mean a pressure wave?
" Frank is right when recalling the consideration of concentrations of ions to generate the desired effects; "
Nice to be right, but I didn't say that - I said, the only non-trivial (synergetic) quantum effect I could imagine is through massive interaction.
The point is, I'm looking at how 4C/TAM/QFT would practically and recognizably be copied in the brain structure and function. Specifically I'm looking for the neuro-scientific bifurcation mechanism. There's a number of very varied clues already, which I have posted. What I like to see is:
- neuro interaction X corresponds to non-linearly interacting waves or etc.. Perhaps hydro-ionic waves?
- neuro interaction Y corresponds to linear interaction. Perhaps synaptic waves?
- neuro interaction Z corresponds to the final result, and this could be brain waves.
Primbam was the propposer of holographic representation of qualia in the brain, he had no idea of how or why, used deductive intuition
Frank, you have no ide of how much you helped me. I became your admirer, of your geometric mind. When the ideas will be sistematized I will contact you here at RG
Thank you Vera Maura Fernandes de Lima
It may surprise you (or perhaps not) as it surprised me at first that it is typically women who get the idea much and much quicker. I've seen it time and time again, e.g. during talks etc.. Men often start with picking something apart, and then they miss the intuitional picture. Glad to know you find it helpful!
Roman Poznanski
The Los Alamos project is for artificial quantum computers. They use lasers. In the brain there are no lasers, but there are Coulomb forces of attraction and repulsion. These are not making pressure, Frank van den Bovenkamp
Alfredo Pereira Junior
This all becomes a bit speculative in my view. That said, if you envision a train of massive ions with coulomb "springs" in between, you'd have at least an interesting mechanism through which longitudinal (pressure!) waves could move. If the coulomb "springs" would effectively be non-linear, then it could even become more interesting. And if these waves would non-trivially be emitted by a fractal-like structure, then you get close to 4C/TAM/QFT on the brain level. It seems a wild idea though that nature would build something like this.
Frank van den Bovenkamp
It is not mechanical pressure, but charge. Positively charged ions repel each other, and attract negatively charged ones. The modus operandi of the system is like von Foerster´s self-organizing magnets, but more dynamical, far from equilibrium.
Roman Poznanski
Your comments about ion trap quantum computers reveal a high degree of ignorance. Lasers and freezing are just ways of the experimenter communicating with the microstates of the system. Freezing allows the experimenter to know that the initial state is the ground state. Lasers allow the experimenter to change this state and read the resulting state. The modus operandi of the system is interaction of the ions by means of Coulomb forces. This interaction generates the entanglement of ions and then the operation of quantum algorithms.
In the brain, the system does not run to thermodynamical equilibrium because there is a negentropic mechanism. We argued that this mechanism is the NMDA channel; Article N-methyl-D-aspartate channel and consciousness: From signal ...
Alfredo Pereira Junior
With this approach you could be on to something, but
"It is not mechanical pressure, but charge. Positively charged ions repel each other, and attract negatively charged ones. "
Why is this confused, so much that it could kill your idea before birth? I don't want to point out myself. It's important that you really switch gears with your physics.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
Anticipating your reply to my comment above - there doesn't need to be entanglement for a quantum level to be non-trivial in the brain. Moreover, I think this whole entanglement idea got over popularized not despite, but because it is not fully understood in physics. It's critical that you articulate your own point correctly, as I mentioned.
Frank van den Bovenkamp Entanglement is necessary for quantum computing. It may be not necessary for your geometrical approach. Quantum computing is an experimental area of research. How is your model testable and what technology can be generated from it?
Roman Poznanski
The entaglement is not of action potentials. Read the paper to understand the 2001 model. The entanglement is proposed to happen between calcium ions trapped in dendritic spines. Then read the JIN 2006 paper on hydro-ionic waves to understand and propely criticize my current approach.
In 2014 Mario Stipcevic made a criticism that was recommended by 5 members including myself. I mede it because the criticism is valid on the basis of experimentai issues (in the line of the famous criticism of Penrose/Hameroff by Tegmark), but, of course, I do not agree with him. In the living brain, the very brief recoherent states alternate with decoherent states. There is no need for a long duration entanglement. What happens insted is a dynamics of decoherence-recoherence, of which we consciously experiene only the recoherent phases. Another difference is that in the brain there is no need to transduce the information to an external observer; for this reason, no laser or freezing is necessary.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
" Entanglement is necessary for quantum computing "
I thought your own title question is about neuro science, not about literal quantum computing. The brain is not a quantum computer. I didn't realize that was the idea behind your question. I'm not going there, it's just a twopenny fancy.
Btw. I've shown a dozen times how my model is testable. If you forgot, go to my project page. And I'm not into technological applications at this time.
Roman Poznanski
You refer to the resting state of neuronal membranes. The entaglement I am talking about is between calcium ions trapped in dendritic spines (2001-2005 model) or calcium ions forming hydro-ionic waves in astrocyte processes (2017 model).Frank van den Bovenkamp The question is about quantum computing in the living brain.
Roman Poznanski
The spines are located inside the dendrites, not at the membrane. The calcium ions that enter the NMDA channel follow signaling pathways, one of them leading to the spines. This was the 2001-2005 model. The correlation between the ions was made on their pathway through NMDA channels. The ions are energized by the depolarized membrane and then trapped at spines. I think this model has problems, but was a good start! The reasonong is based on the Kielpinski et al. Nature paper on large-scale trapped ion computing. We adapted this model to neuronal networks. At that time I did not know about calcium waves in astrocytes.Frank van den Bovenkamp Here is a good explanation about entanglement, made by Kushal Shah: "Why do these particles become entangled? Because they have to satisfy mathematical constraints at the time of emission. So when the two photons are released, their total angular momentum must be zero, and hence, if one of them is UP, the other must be DOWN. At the time of emission itself, it is "randomly" decided which one is UP and which one is DOWN. There is no decision being taken at the time of measurement".
In my explanation of quantum computing in the brain, the ions interact on the basis of Coulomb forces, and then emit the photons when their electrons change energy levels. As they are correlated by the Coulomb forces, the spin of the photon emitted by one ion is entangled with the spin of the photon emitted by the other.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
Appreciate your entanglement note but this is the very basics. I guess you can explain in detail how (entangled) photon spins are being detected and lead to macro effects? Even then, how do you translate "computing" into "feelings"?
That aside, I'm thinking of a far less exotic and more robust quantum implementation of your hydro-ionic waves, so that they can generate synergy and feelings.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
My comment " The brain is not a quantum computer " was even before seeing Mario Stipčević 's reply. After reading his comment, mine is the same but in CAPS.
Listen to physicists, not so much even because of the physics facts which you can also scramble together online, but because how physics works. Physics is about synthesis. What you are doing is Frankenphysics (obviously not referring to my first name).
I've seen it more times, also e.g. with medical doctors. You're seeing a hydro-ionic wave WOW, then you're seeing quantum computing WOW, and then you think: let's put them together, that would be brilliant. But it isn't, because there is no synthesis, it is just unilateral patchwork inspired by laziness.
The hydro-ionic wave obviously has a central function, and I do believe it can have a non-trivial quantum aspect, but that's not entanglement. I gave you a few concrete hints, but obviously to no avail.
Frank van den Bovenkamp I am sorry to say, but your approach to quantum geometry and feelings seems to be more Frankenstein-type than mine, and it is not because of your first name...
It seems obvious to me that the same calcium ion is featuring in artificial quantum computers and in neural tissue, isn´s it so clear to you?
I have made a lot of effort during 30 years to follow all the steps of the complexity of reality, relating each level of analysis, in my publications. I can write a summary here, but it will not satisfy you because you are already attached to your model.
It is necessary to carefully consider esach step: interactions of ions, entanglement, formation of the waves in astrocytes, the roles of astrocytes in animal physiology, homeostasis, control of homeostasis, affective states, relation of affect with emotion, cognition and action, the adaptive role of consciousness, etc. etc. Without this detailed account, the complexity of reality may not make sense to you.
All this said, if you have a better explanation of the hydro-ionic wave, I can only give my congratulations, the progress of science happens this way.
Frank van den Bovenkamp Now answering your specific questions:
I guess you can explain in detail how (entangled) photon spins are being detected and lead to macro effects? Even then, how do you translate "computing" into "feelings"?
Alfredo
1) Entanglement is the "cement" of conscious binding. The spins are not being detected by an external observer, but are gluing the patterns that appear in conscious experience;
2) Quantum computing is approached as the internal mechanism of neural tissue to bind the features into conscious episodes. A feeling is not an isolated pattern, or an atom of consciousness; it is entrained with all other features of conscious experience. The feeling of informantion affecting matter, this is the philosophical view (TAM).
Alfredo Pereira Junior
" It seems obvious to me that the same calcium ion is featuring in artificial quantum computers and in neural tissue, isn´s it so clear to you? "
Well, no it isn't, for reasons stated, and despite the depth of related inquiry you summarize, and which (at this point) I wouldn't contest at all.
"All this said, if you have a better explanation of the hydro-ionic wave, I can only give my congratulations, the progress of science happens this way."
Thank you, but congratulations won't help your concept (and possibly be premature anyway). Rather I'm suggesting a far less exotic, speculative and challenging (I didn't say incredulous...), and imo far more convincing way of interpreting your calcium wave (and which I guess would very well go along with your related inquiries). But you're too attached to your entanglement to hear it.
Btw. if 4C/TAM/QFT is Frankenstein like, then I guess you find his creature just a regular guy..?
Alfredo Pereira Junior
" The spins are not being detected by an external observer,"
With "detection" in the sense of "observation" this makes sense. Would you agree to say that spin implies a (general) observer principle?
" 1) Entanglement is the "cement" of conscious binding [...] gluing the patterns that appear in conscious experience; "
Technically this is extremely nebulous. With "detection" meaning, any sort of non-trivial interaction with the bio-chemical wave, what precisely constitutes the latter?
Moreover, considering that an actual mechanism of entanglement is completely unknown, and that 4C/TAM/QFT synchronized bifurcation could perhaps explain it (but I'm avoiding it), you might give things a second thought...
Alfredo Pereira Junior
In case you think that 4C/TAM/QFT must explain everything, that's not the case. Entanglement is simply a natural spin-off (...) of the underlying bifurcation. I'm still curious if and how your entanglement is bio-chemically / physically non-trivial.
My guess: if you have a bio-chemical bifurcative system (based on non-linear / linear self-interaction), it automatically scales down and up with the quantum level. This way you could hypothetically employ entanglement at 37°.
Note that 4C/TAM/QFT is not intended for brain consciousness, but like I just said on the other thread, the phenomenal state should naturally be implied - that's the whole point of it.
Let´s beguin with hydro (bi destilled etc) dinamic structures the water bridges, following Frank questions in another thread, I could guess that in the water bridge the electrical current is linear and the magnetic flow had to be spiral. Then I asked Elmar C. Fuchs if bacteria flowed in spiral around the bridge. I copy his answer bellow.
Hello, sorry for my late reply, I rarely look at researchgate.we did not characterise the movement of the bacteria, but it is reasonable to assume that they moved like the tracer particles in spirals. You can download videos of this movement from my homepage, ECFUCHS.com Hello, sorry for my late reply, I rarely look at researchgate.we did not characterise the movement of the bacteria, but it is reasonable to assume that they moved like the tracer particles in spirals. You can download videos of this movement from my homepage, ECFUCHS.com Hello, sorry for my late reply, I rarely look at researchgate.we did not characterise the movement of the bacteria, but it is reasonable to assume that they moved like the tracer particles in spirals. You can download videos of this movement from my homepage, ECFUCHS.com Hello, sorry for my late reply, I rarely look at researchgate.we did not characterise the movement of the bacteria, but it is reasonable to assume that they moved like the tracer particles in spirals. You can download videos of this movement from my homepage, ECFUCHS.com Hello, sorry for my late reply, I rarely look at researchgate.we did not characterise the movement of the bacteria, but it is reasonable to assume that they moved like the tracer particles in spirals. You can download videos of this movement from my homepage, ECFUCHS.com Hello, sorry for my late reply, I rarely look at researchgate.we did not characterise the movement of the bacteria, but it is reasonable to assume that they moved like the tracer particles in spirals. You can download videos of this movement from my homepage, ECFUCHS.com
Therefore, it is safe to conclude that protons, hydronium and hidroxil ions flow with the linear electrcal field with velociites and direction according with mass and charge. Photons and electrons flolow the flow of the magnétic induced field- circular causality- And that calcium is neither necessary or sufficent .
Alfredo Pereira Junior
Did it ever occur to you that the proposed quantum field bifurcation could in fact be the principle that orchestrates your "re-coherence"??
I'd rather think in terms of a subtle, edge-of-equilibrium resonance between coherence and decoherence. Almost the same concept in a very closely adjacent field was worked out in great detail by G. Srinivasan, which was a great input for my model.
One other aspect is the scaling between quantum and neuro i.e. hydro-ionic wave. I realize now that this is also carried out by the bifurcation. In other words, the bifurcation and the scaling are one and the same thing (and was meant to be a scaling function to begin with).
In case bifurcation sounds alien to you, I'm reposting the, presumably functional, identical morphology of the dendritic tree. Without prior knowledge I suspect that the cascading branches represent standing wavelengths or etc..
What the dendritic tree would constantly establish and orchestrate is what I refer to as "my" TAM: the Triple Attributional Matrix of consciousness (which is not mine, really).
In the artsy pic, imagine the outer bubble the hydro-ionic medium, and the "person" in the middle is consciousness.
Now what I don't know offhand is the precise QED of charge/force interaction through photons, and if and how spin would non-trivially be involved. And of course I'd like to know what's going on with the dendritic tree. But all in all I'm seeing a very familiar picture emerge.
One thing is sure, anything along the line of "quantum computing" in the brain is off limits and desperate Frankenphysics, as already concluded by Mario Stipčević.
Alfredo Pereira Junior
It becomes clear that self-declared materialist Roman Poznanski
is running out of options as completely expected. The only thing Roman needs to do is to finalize his model and show it, instead of saying what's not good in other's. The funny thing is, the better it would get, the more it will look like what was given in contemporary form already in the late '80's, there's simply no way around it.Of course we understand that "conformational energy maps" are not the loci of consciousness, rather conformational action maps. And of course there's no quantum bifurcations in dendritic trees. Did you say that? I didn't.
And I would still like to hear from you how your "re-coherence" (which I don't take very literally) would non-trivially interact (e.g.) with Ca ions, that is, in the brain.
Frank van den Bovenkamp and Roman Poznanski
In the last posts and projects it seems that we found some agreement with the usual differences. I will not stress the differences again because the previous discussion has been based on them.. Why not focus on the agreements?
The idea of decoherence/recoherence as a bifurcation of the quantum field seems to me excellent. Roman finally understanding TAM´s main thesis sounds great to me! Not to mention my productive collaborations with Vera Maura Fernandes de Lima Let´s collaborate and be happy!
Frank van den Bovenkamp
Dear Frank, I apologize for sending Elmar´s answer 3 times, but I am curious about what you make of it and Shashoua paper. I did for you and thou you would be thrilled! AM I wrong?
Frank van den Bovenkamp wrote ´´And I would still like to hear from you how your "re-coherence" (which I don't take very literally) would non-trivially interact (e.g.) with Ca ions, that is, in the brain.´´
Alfredo - As I have told you, this is a multi-step process that I originally approached as the recovery of entanglement in neural tissue. The two attached papers are good for you to cite and criticize at your will.
Some words on entanglement and recoherence. In Bohm´s approach (hidden variables, quantum potential), as well as in Vitiello´s QFT approach, Feynmann´s QED and Zurek´s decoherence, there is no absolute collapse of the wavefunction, with destruction of previous superposition and entanglement (as assumed by Copenhagen interpretations). What happens is a change in the pattern of entanglement, that now you refer as a bifurcation of the quantum field spatiotemporal configuration. Therefore, everyone here is talking about the same phenomenon.
This is two penguins discussing how to get a banana out of a tree.
Alfredo Pereira Junior : don't mind that I post this on your thread here - imo it is directly applicable for a possible framework for your "re-coherence".
Roman Poznanski
: see that the Final stage is NOT fractal.-
Hydrogen eigenstates in synchronized bifurcative self-interaction of the quantum field
De Broglie's hypothesis provides an elegant and compelling solution for the integer number of wavelengths in a given electron orbit or energy level. The discrete energy levels themselves, indicated by the primary quantum number, follow from a volumetric principle and are not proven by de Broglie. Schödinger's wave equation is used to solve this, however only up to a single orbit or Hydrogen eigenstate at a time, whereas the probabilistic interpretation is a cause of great dissatisfaction.
As shown, the Formal stage of the bifurcative self-interaction (as per the 4C/TAM/QFT model), when synchronized, facilitates dimensionalization or self-localisation. The latter in this case is however still somewhat theoretical. The self-localized state is characterized by self-reference, that is, the principal bifurcation and the physical bifurcation have become the same, but only so far in principle. The self-reference, when taken as an actual bifurcation, constitutes the Final stage.
Thus the Final stage constitutes the actualized self-reference, whereby the final bifurcation pattern confirms that the synchronized bifurcation is indeed self-referent. This confirmational pattern of the Final stage is the Hydrogen eigenstates.
In terms of a spherical potential well, the Hydrogen eigenstates constitute a self-consistent volumetric, surface and radial bifurcation. In terms of TAM, the Triple Attributional Matrix, the eigenstates represent the TAM permutations.
A more generalized approach of 4C/TAM/QFT follows from the assumption that time and space are not fundamental. The field's bifurcative action is geometric in nature, and so there exist no a priori physical (wave) media. Instead, the scaling ratio of the geometrized self-interaction can vary and this accounts for the formation of conformational patterns. In other words the medium is implied in the geometry of the interaction, the interaction is not defined by any pre-existing medium.
The 2 main scaling ratio's are those which create the confirmational patterns of the Formal and Final stages. The Formal stage is fractal, optimized by scaling ratio Phi (Golden ratio, 1.618), the Final stage is arithmetic, optimized by scaling ratio 2. Also, the Formal stage is confined, the Final stage is de-confined.
It should be noted that the self-consistency of the Final Stage is rather satisfactory, suggesting that physics is complete. Technically speaking, it provides no incentive to look for a Formal Stage resp. - Cause. The only incentive is the dissatisfaction with the probabilistic interpretation, as a dubious placeholder for real quantum determinism. This self-consistency however is deceptive, because it silently presumes that time and space are fundamental. Without the latter, there is an instantaneous need for a Formal principle to make physics complete. Here it is shown how the fractally scaled Formal aspect and the arithmetic Final aspect constitute the mutually concommitted confirmational patterns of physical media.
A third important bifurcative scaling ratio is proposed (sqr(3)), associated with the electroweak interaction in QFT, that is, the Intermediary stage.
All 3 functional scaling ratio's are directly visible in the Quantum Geometry of Color. That is, the human visual spectrum spans and truly identifies the spectrum of creation at a fundamental level.
Conclusion: Hydrogen eigenstates are the confirmational pattern of the self-reference of the quantum field's synchronized self-interaction.
" Quantum field theory is opaque but also a non-biological theory. It paints a picture in which solid matter dissolves away, to be replaced by excitations and vibrations of invisible field energy. Quantum physics undermines materialism because it removes the bonds between atoms and reveals that matter has far less "substance" than we might believe. Fundamentally matter becomes non-inert matter waves, but the flaw in such an argument is, of course, the notion that covalent bonds play no role in the molecular orbital of delocalized electrons. For this reason, QFT is a falsehood when it comes to an understanding of biological consciousness. "
Roman Poznanski
teaching the world about Quantum Field Theory :-D This is about the highest concentration of BS in a single paragraph I've ever seen, from a person who without reservation endorsed my QFT based model when he believed it existed as a tribute to his materialistic ideas (which of course was never the case).- Badges
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