You cannot question the validity of the PMV calculation as it is the last step of a large number of calculations. The PMV value is straight-forward and there is nothing to discuss about it. What you need to discuss is if your basic mircometeorological data are realsistic or not. As ENVI-met is a purley physical model, your are more ore less responsible for that. There are quite a number of paper out there on this topic

Michael

Dear colleague. PMV index, according to the theory formulated by his father (P.O. fanger), is a sensation index validated in indoor conditions (in enviroments provided with HVAC index as well described by ISO 7730 standard). Maybe, for your investigations, other indices as PET, UTCI and similar could be more reliable.

There is also an outdoor version of PMV which adds radiation fluxes. This one is used by Envi-met. For more info see the website.

Dear colleagues,

PMV depends upon 4 physical variables (air temperature, air velocity, humidity and MEAN RADIANT TEMPERATURE) and two personal quantities (metabolic rate and clothing insulation).

Envi-met is able to provide a full characterization of the external climate (the 4 physical variables), but the structure of the PMV index (equations, physiological assumptions and so on) are obviously the same used indoor.

Sincerely I don't know wether the authors of Envi-Met have changed the structure of the PMV, but if they call PMV as PMV I am obliged to suppose that they used PMV index as in ISO 7730 Standard or in ASHRAE 55.

Therefore, although Envi-met is a very robust tool for the characterization of the main variables affecting the climate, PMV is the same index used and validated indoor. This issue has been intensively studied in the past by several authors. The best practice to be followed for dealing with "bio-climatic" indices SHOULD BE to use climatic indices (UTCI, PET and similar) for application outdoor and PMV indoor.

I suggest you:

1. To have a 360° overview about the difference on indoor comfort/discomfort indices and outdoor climatic indices the paper by our group here available (Industrial Health 2011, issue number 49, pages 95-106)

2. The special issue number 56 (May 2012) of the International Journal of biometeorology where the main features of UTCI index are well described.

Thank you for the patience.

Well, I am the author of Envi-met hence i can tell you that it is used in its proper outdoor formulation as used in german Din 3787 developed by the german Weathers service.

If you prefer PET (which I also do) that's fine but don't give wrong statementson the PMV here

Michael

Dear Prof. Bruse,

I am almost astonished by your answer. Especially when you write "don't give wrong statements on the PMV here". Maybe there was a misunderstanding and I am obliged to answer you to defend the core of the discussion:

1) In the scope of EN ISO 7730 (International standard accept even in Germany) you can find this sentence in the scope "This International Standard presents methods for predicting the general thermal sensation and degree of

discomfort (thermal dissatisfaction) of people exposed to moderate thermal environments. It enables theanalytical determination and interpretation of thermal comfort using calculation of PMV (predicted mean vote)

and PPD (predicted percentage of dissatisfied) and local thermal comfort criteria, giving the environmenta conditions considered acceptable for general thermal comfort as well as those representing local discomfort. It is applicable to healthy men and women exposed to indoor environments where thermal comfort is desirable, but where moderate deviations from thermal comfort occur, in the design of new environments or the assessment of existing ones."

AS YOU CAN SEE PMV IS SPECIFIC FOR INDOOR ENVIRONMENTS

2) In the original book by Fanger (1970) and in another book by Parsons (2003) you can find all details about the formulation of the PMV (it was formulated based on measurements carried out in CLIMATIC ROOM under CONTROLLED condition. This is not the case of outdoor conditions).

3) If a National Standard or a part of the International Scientific community forces the use of PMV under different condition I am obliged to tell what are the constraints of this choice. This is a social network aimed to the scientific community and this is the place where scientific discussions can take place.

4) With my previous answer I did not want to offend anyone, but I meant to explain what is being studied for more than 40-70 years.

5) In literature there are several bioclimatic indices for the assessment of OUTDOOR climate. PET and UTCI are a couple of them.

6) I hope that these matters are robust enough to explain my scientific perspective.

Have a nice weekend

Hi

There is no doubt on the original definition on pmv.

But there are others especially the one that i mentioned above (which which i am not affiliated or whatever).

With this definition also known as the Klima- michel model, pmv can be used for outdoor environments similar to SET extended to SET*

Weather it was a good move to keep the original name or not ( probably not) that is nothing that can be changed today as it has been doen long time ago.

The maps of thermal comfort are pretty much alike no matter if you use Pmv, Pet, Et , utci or whatever- only the scale values differ

Best

Michael

Dear Michael, thank you for your explanation.

I am not agree with this sentence "The maps of thermal comfort are pretty much alike no matter if you use Pmv, Pet, Et , utci or whatever- only the scale values differ". This is not a matter of scale rather on physiological assumption forming the base of the specific index (e.g. PMV exhibits a poor sensitivity to variables as humidity according to studies carried out by Fanger himself) .

Unfortunately this is a very hard topic to be dealt here ( there are lot and lot of paper devoted to this matter); in few words the perspective of bio-meteorologists are very different to those of the ergonomists of the indoor thermal environment.

Best

Boris

if you want you use this paper for pmv value in outdoor calculation

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.solener.2012.01.010

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.solener.2012.01.010

http://www.envi-met.info/hg2e/doku.php?id=apps:biomet_pmv