Sex drive is experienced by a male who anticipates penetrative sex. It is a significant urge that can be difficult for a man to resist. No one has an urge to be penetrated by a penis or any other object. The urge to penetrate arises in the brain of the penetrating male. Women enjoy platonic love, affection and a lover who demonstrates caring behaviours. The balance between these two objectives is encapsulated in the idea of consent. A woman enjoys sex when her emotional needs are met.
"Why do men insist that everyone has a sex drive & experiences orgasm with a lover?"
Which men?
"No one has an urge to be penetrated by a penis or any other object."
Countless women and many men would strongly disagree.
So you don't? That is refreshing. Why do you accept that women don't have a sex drive and don't orgasm with a lover? I have been suggesting this for years but no one seems enthusiastic about the reality of female sexuality. They prefer to focus on erotic fiction and male fantasies.
Jane Elizabeth Thomas can you provide some evidence from at least qualitative studies to back up your claims. It would be much easier to discuss, if everyone is on the same page, so to speak.
Blaine Tomkins did not state anywhere to accept that "... women don't have a sex drive and don't orgasm with a lover?" From which sentence did you derive that? It seems like a black or white fallacy. I think Blaine wanted to point out that not all men believe this, which in turn does not mean that noone ever said or believed that. But even if someone did claim this, this person(s) need to back up their statement by evidence as well, like any other claim. But it is hard to blieve that ALL 4 Billion men believe this, as well as that all or none of the 4 Billion women have a sex drive. What are the numbers? Are there any surveys investigating this question? Please provide sources. I personally would think that "sex drive" or "orgasm sensitivity" are dimensions, with interindividual differences, where people range from no drive or sensitivity at all, to extreme ones. But I a willing to adjust my believes, when I see contradicting evidence.
You said:"I have been suggesting this for years but no one seems enthusiastic about the reality of female sexuality." What did you specifically suggest, it is not entirely clear to me, to which statement this refers to. And what do you mean with "suggest", did you gather any evidence for your hypothesis? Again, what are the numbers, please provide sources. Personal experience and opinion is just anecdotal evidence at best.
Jane Elizabeth Thomas First, I don't agree that women don't have a sex drive. Neither do I agree that women never orgasm with a partner. Both of these claims are demonstrably false.
I think it more accurate to say "some women have little to no sex drive" and "women do not always orgasm during intercourse with a partner."
Its absurd to claim that women do not have sex drives, if this is what is being claimed, unless millions of women have lied or are lying. Seeing this from the unconsidered position of men is not acceptable. While I understand the methods you are using, I am loathe to see them as scientific but subject to subjectivity. But much of this kind of science is. It is not say physics.
To counter this, I have seen other projects claim that only 30% of women experience orgasm but again I find this suspect.
Would you have a sex drive to be impregnated? Isn't that an absurd idea? Men always pay for sex either directly or indirectly and often insist that women must welcome penetration. So inevitably women have a reason to provide what men want. If you know any women, even one, who is willing to explain the erotic turn-ons, the anatomy and the stimulation technique involved in these orgasms you think they are having, please ask her to contact me. In over 10 years of asking women to discuss sex and orgasm, very few have been willing to comment. Those who do are just boasting and are angry to be asked for specifics. This is politics not science. Women make money out of professing an enthusiasm for sex. Men equally cannot explain how women are aroused. They cannot name even one female erotic turn-on. If women are not aroused then they are not having orgasms. If female orgasm was common with a lover, then men would know these simple facts.
Kinsey and Hite did research that indicated that female orgasm occurred primarily though masturbation. They concluded that women look for emotional (rather than erotic) rewards with a lover. This research has been ignored. Instead both professionals and the population have reverted to the male view of female sexuality - that women should respond to intercourse (an act of impregnation) because men are driven foremost to obtain intercourse from women. There is no research to support the orgasms we see in pornography. It is just erotic fiction. No one can explain these orgasms in terms of consistent anatomy and erotic turn-ons. They are just supposed to happen as a result of male thrusting technique. My research involves highlighting the research that has been done (and ignored), the lack of any follow-on research and the inability of anyone worldwide to explain how women are supposed to orgasm with a lover. Silence abounds. Only men respond to any mention of sex but they have no answers - just fantasies.
I find your hyotheses not uninteresting and they sound plausible, which needs research. I would totally agree here. But it is not fruitful to theoretically discuss what to believe and who might be right or wrong. Let's gather data and let them speak, so that we call all learn from it.
"Would you have a sex drive to be impregnated? Isn't that an absurd idea?"
No. In fact, it's a biological imperative. Females of many species display species-specific, sexually-receptive behavior (e.g., lordosis) for the purpose of achieving intromission (i.e., penetration) and fertilization. Also, female orgasms are less frequent during intercourse because, unlike male orgasm, female orgasm is not necessary for conception.
I'll be glad to continue this discussion when you want to discuss science instead of feminist dogma.
I had a look at your "statement papers" here on RG and your twitter page, but I could not find any documented study in form of a scientific paper. Even if your statement that research has been ignored and professionals and population have reverted it is true, it would be very easy nowadays to use the open science framework to publish your results openly to everyone. Please share your study results with us, as already stated above, so that we are all on the same page. Until now, you presented only anecdotal evidence and opinions. You cannot criticise science for ignoring research, when it is not presented in a scientific manner. I am really open to change my mind, but as Christoper Hitchens said: "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
My research presents common sense. The research findings that clearly indicate that female orgasm is associated with female masturbation has been IGNORED. There is NO RESEARCH that indicates that the average woman can hope to orgasm with a lover. I ask couples, men and women, to explain the current beliefs about female responsiveness. NO ONE CAN - NOT EVEN PROFESSIONALS. YOU OBVIOUSLY CANNOT. Only men respond to any discussion of sexuality. Women are SILENT on sexual issues. No one can orgasm from stimulation that lasts for a length of time defined by another person. Even a man would not orgasm if stimulation ceased before his orgasm - yet intercourse lasts only as long as a man has an erection. The anatomy involved in male orgasm is never disputed. No one talks about male orgasm because it occurs reliably. You are expecting research to take a specific form - such as asking millions of women about their orgasms. But researchers make the mistake of assuming that these orgasms are possible. When they ask "do you orgasm from intercourse?" they infer that such a feat is possible. In my lifelong experience it is not possible. I have approached female sex researchers and therapists. They all refuse to comment on orgasm. Don't you smell a rat? Men are intent on supporting the current misinformation because they believe that they will get more sex. But Kinsey and Hite found that women were equally enthusiastic or unenthusiastic about sex regardless of whether they believed in these orgasms that men think they should have. All this male propaganda telling women they should want sex make no difference to the quantify of sex that men get. If you were really interested you would support my research by asking women you know about orgasm. But you know that it is a taboo topic for women and that they can never answer explicit question. This fact, that women are embarrassed and even disgusted by any explicit discussion of sexual phenomena is evidence that they do not orgasm ever. Most women are 100% unresponsive and that is how Nature intends them to be. Women are supposed to lie in position during intercourse until a man is done. That is how reproduction works. I present basic facts, logic and the research findings that support my own conclusions. Women never orgasm with a lover by any means. Female orgasm is only possible when masturbating alone. I have masturbated all my adult life - it always works. Nothing works with a lover. No other woman is brave enough to say anything. There is no point because men never listen.
As a young woman I had many questions about sex. I never found a woman willing to discuss sexuality. Later I went to a sex clinic. They also had no answers. Then I have spent decades asking women via social media to contact me. Very few do and they are unspecific about sexual response. Those who boast about orgasm are angry and defensive. Most women refuse to comment on any aspect of sex. I am pointing out that it is absurd to believe that millions of women orgasm with a lover, when none of them is willing to talk about it. But if you know a woman, EVEN ONE WOMAN, who is willing to explain all the anomalies and contradictions that I am highlighting, then please ask her to contact me! You can find all of my research on my website - Nosper.com - if you were remotely interested. But you are just defending male ego and male determination to get intercourse from women. You cannot accept that all your propaganda makes no difference. Women are women. They are no stupid. They know what they like and what they find offensive. This is why pornography is censored in every society on the planet. Women like platonic love, lovemaking and caring behaviours that we call romance and that men cannot accept is important to women because men are obsessed with eroticism and the idea that women orgasm with a lover. Women fake orgasm to keep men happy. But typically couples never discuss female arousal and female sexual response. A man just assumes that a woman his happy with his 'lovemaking'. They are indifferent to it but over time it becomes a chore - just lying there waiting for a man to come. So some women cooperate to speed up male orgasm and get sex over with.
I am motivated to provide answers for younger women because I couldn't find any until I started to work full time on understanding what the explanations are. I now know the facts, the logic and the research findings that explain my sexual experiences. I am publishing the evidence for my conclusions for the benefit of women and their lovers who can accept what I am saying. Most can't. But there the fact that there is no sex education in our society is evidence of the huge politics involved where men are not interested in promoting the truth but simply their own fantasies. This is ignorance and a mistake because knowing the truth does not change our reality. But it does help those who are aware that sexual ignorance exits. Pornography is a male masturbation tool that assist with male arousal because it presents what men want to believe. It is erotic FICTION. It has nothing to do with the reality for women and this is highly confusing. I am putting this right by presenting my research. All other research into female sexual response has died because of the politics. Men cannot accept the findings and ridicule the researchers. Women want to be attractive to men because of the rewards men provide for women who offer intercourse. Men always pay directly or indirectly for sex.
In answer to why I cannot present research papers along the lines of other researchers, I thought it was an interesting exercise to explain why this is not possible:
1) There are no institutions that research sexual response.
2) There are no sex researchers who would sponsor my work or my articles.
3) There are no institutions that would allow me to publish an article that questions the orgasms that women are believed to have with a lover.
4) There are no medical journals that would allow me to publish an article that questions the orgasms that women are believed to have with a lover.
5) The only research that has been done into sexual response (by Alfred Kinsey and Shere Hite) has been ignored and the researchers vilified. No one is motivated to encourage any follow-up.
6) The public and professionals are only interested in solutions for how to interest women in sex. They have no interest in findings that explain why women are not interested in sex as men are.
7) The taboo over sex means that is it impossible to find any forum worldwide that allows open discussion of sexual issues. My challenge is surviving by posting only posts with no sexual references.
8) Sex professionals themselves, therapists and researchers, are only human. They are no more willing to discuss sexual issues honestly than anyone else. They refuse to comment.
9) The research that has been done (typically by men) is flawed. It makes incorrect assumptions. For example, it assumes that women are capable of orgasm with a lover by various means.
10) Publishing the truth about female responsiveness attracts no credit and makes no money. There is no reason for anyone to finance any research that does not support female orgasm with a lover.
Until this politics is recognised and accounted for, there will be no science applied to understanding female sexual response. For that, we will probably have to wait for the end of the human species.
I see that you are really engaged in this topic, which is good on the one hand, but one the other hand you expose your unscientific approach in the first sentence, because of your personal engagement. „Common sense“ is quite the opposite of science, since there are uncountable examples, where realty contradicts common sense or wisdom of the crowds (and what common sense is, is different for everyone....).
You say „When they ask "do you orgasm from intercourse?" they infer that such a feat is possible.“ I would contradict and it shows why quantitative research is important. You can simply add the category 0 to the answers. Or if you think that people would not respond honestly, use a technique for sensitive contents, like the „unmatched count technique“, which can give you the prevalence of certain behavior, e.g. no orgasm from intercourse. That is how you tackle taboo topics!
And please stop with general accusations like „all men, researchers, therapists etc“. This sounds more like a conspiracy. Maybe the people you encountered did not answer to you specifically, which does not mean they would not answer generally. And I cannot believe that no-one dares to research it. When I studied psychology I had abnormal psychology as a minor subject and the head of the department (and head of the psychiatric clinic here) was a sexual therapist. How I got to know him, he would have been very interested in that topic and research, I guess. Unfortunately, he is retired now.
The point is, your experience is only YOUR experience. I could take the whole last paragraph/post from you and rephrase it, as if we would talk about homeopathy (and I hope you can agree that homeopathy is big BS). A homeopath would argue just like you, that research in that area is not taken seriously and suppressed by specific groups (although they have a big machinery behind them that support their BS), that (s)he has life long personal experience and so on. All this is not science and does not help in any way. Personal agenda and ranting about others is not fruitful.
How about starting with a simple anonymous online survey using the above mentioned „unmatched count technique“, just to get an impression? What do you think about it?
Here. Roughly 40% of the time females in this study reported experiencing orgasm from vaginal penetration.
The problem with any research into female orgasm is that it is carried out foremost by men who assume that orgasm is possible by any means. My experience is that it never occurs with a lover. By asking women "Do you orgasm through vaginal penetration?" the inference is that such a feat is achievable. When I first had sex, I felt nothing. Not a thing. Only Kinsey provided an explanation - that all internal organs of the body are inert. He cited surgeons who don't need to use anaesthetic to operate on the vagina. Yet this fact is not expressed anywhere. The inference is that women experience ecstatic pleasure from intercourse. This is a male view. Men think that because penetration with an erect penis is deliriously pleasurable the receiver must experience the same pleasure. Rape and consent indicate the opposite. Most women most of the time only offer intercourse when there is an emotional connection. These surveys are far too superficial and assume that every woman knows what an orgasm is. They haven't a clue. They think they orgasm just because they are the receiver of male ejaculate. Women think they are supposed to orgasm with a lover because men insist that they should. You cannot underestimate the sexual politics involved. Men beat women and intimidate women. This is not an equal debate. Why are men so intent on these discussions? Where are all the women who can explain how they achieve these orgasms? Why do men know nothing about female erotic turn-ons? If women are not aroused they are not having orgasms.
Orgasms surveys are worthless. I have been asking women to discuss sex and orgasm for years. Very few women are willing to make any comment whatsoever. Usually men speak on their behalf. Where are all these women that men think are having orgasms with a lover? Why can they not explain these supposed orgasms? Why can men not explain how female orgasm is supposed to occur? No erotic turn-ons, confusion over the anatomy involved and no idea as to the stimulation technique. Men just try everything. But if women were aroused, they would obtain their own stimulation. They would not wait for a man to supply it. Intercourse, cunnilingus and female masturbation all involve different anatomy. This makes no sense. Yet no one questions this. Women never comment on the difference between masturbation and intercourse. Men have no scientific curiosity. Why are women silent on sexual topics? Why do women never pay for sex? Why are men always chasing women, harassing women, dating women, abusing women, beating women, drugging women to get sex? Men are only intent on asserting that women willingly offer regular sex because they enjoy the same pleasure that men do. The fact that men pay the bills and support the family is irrelevant. Men always pay for sex directly or indirectly but this fact is never taken into account. As soon as a woman stops offering regular intercourse a man just goes elsewhere. So a woman uses sex to keep a man committed to the relationship. Women don't care about sex. Two minutes is little compared to what men offer in return. But this politics explains why we have no sex education in our society and why the research findings have been ignored. No one wants to admit that men want sex and women offer sex in return for a relationship and family.
1) The study presented by Blaine Tomkins was conducted by a woman as first author.
2) They did NOT ask "Do you orgasm through vaginal penetration?", but this was an option among several others. If you were right, then no women should have chosen this option! With your statement you are implying that either the authors, the women or both are lying.
3) I made one very concrete suggestion, how to gather data, which is suitable to investigate taboo topics, but you did no even mention this.
You talk in monologue, act as if your very personal experiences are the only truth for all women out there and you bring up very harsh allegations against each and everyone and those who do not share your opionion. Do you really believe that this is a fruitful discourse? If you act that way with your "clients", I am not surprised they dont share their experiences with you, to be honest. You are not open for debate or open to results, but you have already chosen what is "true" and discard everything else. I feel sorry.
Forget it, Rainer. She's not interested in evidence, much less truth. She's simply out to vilify men and push her message.
Funny enough Andrew Gelman just published something about common sense on his blog, that common sense could function as a prior (in Bayesian statistics), but we need to update it by evidence:
https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2024/01/20/regarding-the-use-of-common-sense-when-evaluating-research-claims/
You clearly don't get it. The facts, the logic and the research findings. That is my evidence. Please find someone else to annoy. You haven't answered any of my questions. You cannot explain anything. That is my evidence. We all know what anatomy and turn-ons are involved in male orgasm. If female orgasm occurred in the same way, we would all know the same facts about female orgasm. But you are not able to accept these basic facts.
I am willing to accept scientific evidence and also willing to change my mind, and to remind you: I did not take any position here. I mentioned that your hypotheses should be investigated, therefore keep your strawman to thyself, I never said that you are wrong. BUT the only person who delivered evidence is Blane Tomkins. Your personal anecdotal evidence so far is in the same ballpark as homeopathy, astrology, faith healing and flat earth theory.
To quote Carl Sagan:"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”, here I see nothing except misandry and rant.
Jane Elizabeth Thomas I'm certainly not responding to annoy you. I'm responding so that young researchers who might come across this discussion are spared the misinformation and propaganda that you're pushing all over ResearchGate.
Much as I appreciate your endless pointless discussion which publicises my work, it is very tedious when you cannot explain any of the many anomalies and contradictions that I am explaining. You live in a world where you think sexual ignorance is the norm because everyone around you is sexually ignorant. You are content with the censorship of sexual content and the silence from women worldwide because it allows you to take comfort in your fantasies. You have no scientific curiosity and so discussion is futile. I have many fans and followers who are grateful for my discussion of such a taboo topic that no one else has the courage to tackle. Please continue with your head in the sand but stop bothering me with your pathetic eternal ignorance.
Lol, "I have many fans and followers who are grateful for my discussion of such a taboo topic that no one else has the courage to tackle." doesn't that contradict what you said earlier that no-one dares to speak? What now, do they discuss with you and tell you everything or does no-one tell you anything, you can't have the cake and eat it, too. (BTW, homeopathy also has many fans that doesn't make it right...)
First, nobody here claimed the male and female orgasm are identical. In fact, there is a fairly large collection of evidence to suggest that sexual drive, sexual pleasure, and sexual experience differ between males and females. For instance, different sets of brain structures show heightened activity when a male orgasms than when a female orgasms - as indicated by fMRI. You're arguing with yourself moreso than anyone here.
Second, that male and females experience orgasm differently AND females never orgasm from vaginal penetration are two entirely different statements. The latter is demonstrably false. That your personal experience differs from other women's does not refute this fact. I cannot insist the earth is flat because that's how I experience it - even if I find a handful of people who agree with me. Either share (non-anecdotal) evidence or nobody is inclined to give any credence to the outrageous claims you make.
Third, I'm unimpressed with your 'fans' and 'followers'. L. Ron Hubbard has a following of tens of thousands worldwide. I guess that means his views are true?
Lastly, I'd appreciate if you stop with the misandry. The sex of a researcher has no bearing on the validity of their measures or evidence. That notwithstanding, as Rainer Duesing pointed out the first author of the article I shared is a woman and all the participants were themselves women.
*It's pretty absurd to complain that no one will discuss with you, and when someone does you tell them to leave you alone because they disagree with you (see confirmation bias) - then you're shocked why most folks won't converse with you on these posts? That's a pretty common consequence of living in a dogmatic echo chamber.
I am talking about facts, logical explanations & research findings. If you are not interested in this approach, please go elsewhere. No one talks about sex anywhere on any forum. I am the only person worldwide who discusses sexuality and sexual response. You are wasting your time here. You clearly understand nothing about women or how sexual response works.
My last response: As I posted right at the beginning (about 20 posts back), please share the "research findings" you are mentioning in you last post. Please give us the papers you are referring to, so that we are on the same page.
Maybe you are frigid! This forum is for scientific debate. Otherwise you might as well be on Twitter. My research findings come from Kinsey & Hite, who both concluded that women offer intercourse for emotional - rather than erotic - rewards. My own research shows that only men talk of eroticism & sexual pleasure. Most women refuse to comment on sex - not a sign of enjoying orgasm or even sexual pleasure. See Nosper.com!
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