You are right dear Vilemar,

our perception differs from the fetus, but like you mentioned, the unborn has senses and feelings. But I´m still convinced there is no defined mental process like "get out here" or "I want out here", I think there are messengers which cause the birth.

Thank you, Narayanan.

This is interesting.

In fisiological terms, I believe that both decide. when you measure the levels of factors implied (such as hormonal levels and hormonal receptors in presence) at the time of chilbirth, you soin realise that the moment of childbirth is the result of common efforts from the maternal womb and the fetal placental side of the child. 

In philosophical and/or psychologic terms, I would think that also, both are intrinsically involved in cooperative action. You cannot think of the mother, her uterus or her child as indeperndent, when you think in human terms. This intertwined interrelation is unique and will last for at least the first months after delivery, contrarely to other animals, that soon gain independence. 

Hope this was useful.

Kind regards,

Maria

Soon got independence for animals will not be found for mammalians. Even most birds depend on their family, just remember the penguins or all the birds of pray.

Dear Maria and Hanno

Thanks for replying.

My more specific doubt is 'who initiates the delivery?'. Can the uterus just push out the baby or does it have to wait till the baby initiates the proceedings. It just touches 'neuro-philosophy' (is there such a term? Time someone did). It any way cannot be a joint decision, can it be? Some mother-child connection?

Narayanan

I´m no specialist, but I found a very interesting article about a regulation protein for mice birth. I attach the paper.

Dear Narayan, the strength that pulls the baby out of the womb involves immunologic rejection factors, that provoque uterine contractions and placental decay. Only the rest is physical, or muscular. 

The problem with fetal death is that the womb cannot reject the fetus on its own. The same applies to maternal death. The fetus will not be able to initiate its own birth, They are interdependent. You would need cesarean section in both cases...

Dear Narayanan,

Once upon a time I read that the mother gives birth when she feels at her best (my sons are born at Good Friday and Ascension Day).  (Nowaday I get the feeling that it is the hospital staff who decide before their shifts end  by enhancing contractions by hormones. Or in case of cesarean the hospital takes charge) I am talking from Finland now and nota bene  Finland is one of the best countries in the world to give birth in. We also have the world's best  maternity package with necessary tools and clothing for the baby, contraceptives for the parents, all kinds of long-lasting, useful and beautiful things. This package you get when you have been pregnant for at least 150 days . The box can be changed to the baby's crib. It came 1937 to support poor mothers but became available for all women after the world war II in 1949 when every baby was worth gold after the enormous loss of young educated men. The men felt a need to conceive a child before they were killed in the war resulting in a big baby boom  1944- 1945. People became interested in their children, stimulated them and even if the country was poor after having to pay Russia for having provoked the war (check this out) the people invented all kinds of free nice things for their children.A maternity package is not a commercial product and therefore the health insurance Company (KELA) cannot sell it. Nevertheless, it was sent as a gift to Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel of Sweden in 2012 and to Prince William and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge  in 2013 in United Kingdom.

I would recommend my dear readers to initiate a movement for making such a package for every pregnant women in the world. It is a real blessing!

Thank you Beatrice. Yeah, here too cesarean dates are often predetermined

Narayanan

Dear Hanno

That was very good article that you indicated. It shows that the Lung of the baby is mature enough to handle air? I wonder what the parallel is in egg born (chicks) and in pupal born. There should be in principle.

But one doubt remains: If the baby has to participate, does its mind tell it: Go, get out and enjoy life outside, don't try to stay inside for ever?

What do you all think?

Narayanan

In some cases close to me - the uterus opened when the faetus was of a certain weight, to save the baby in the next pregnansy  the use of circlage (the Sophia Lohren method) was invented. The circlage is  opened 3 weeks before the baby is due but the baby never waits 3 weeks. In these cases it is surely the weigth of the baby and the structure of the uterus that contribute. The mouse dam gives birth at 21 +/- 1 day but if transported she can miscarry. If she is scared she can also eat her first pups, next time she is a better mother.

Thank you Beatrice

So, other han the physiological (Hanno's reference) and anatomical (weight), the baby has no influence on its birth, is it so?

A full term baby is conscious, isn't it? It can appreciate music, I have heard story of how a near dead baby was revived when its elder brother (who used to sing to it when it was in utero) sang it the same song. I have also heard that babies are soothed when its mother hold it close to left chest (this is usual position) because it is familiar with her heart beat. All this suggests that it has memories.

Can it have any memories that tell it should get out of the confined space?

Narayanan

Dear Narayanan,

The whole process is so intriguing done that none of the parts have an active role to it. A health gestation happens without the consent of the part and end on the same way. Every piece of the parts involved are acting as if they had a wonderful and infallible plan. Unless there is an internal or external abnomality to it, the baby will come out in his right time and with what should be done in the time given. I do not believe children are able to communicate with the outside world. I would say that they have a chemical communication at its best. When the mother sees someone saying her child will be fine, talking to him she will release hormones that may produce a good sensation to the fetus, but not that it can recognize language or gestures as a belly patting.

Dera Vilemar,

I´m not convinced about your statement "no communication with the outside world". It´s well known that unbornes can hear, and I´m convinced they even recognize light , diffuse but remember how you see with closed eyes. And they feel physical virbrations, warmth and temperature as well as movement and calm of the mother. And like you already stated, they "feel" all hormones and other substances which can move into placenta fluid .

Dear Hanno,,

I think we agree completely. Differences are for our adult faulty ways to convey our ideas. Yes, after the hearing system is complete they can bear and só the same happens with other abilities. After all, these input can not be recognized all at once right after birth. When I mentioned communication I was sayng they could not benefit from language as a system of codes which learned after birth. I accept yet that some commands may be innate. And that they recognize mother's voice and some smells. In a broader sense they do communicate with outside world.

You are right dear Vilemar,

our perception differs from the fetus, but like you mentioned, the unborn has senses and feelings. But I´m still convinced there is no defined mental process like "get out here" or "I want out here", I think there are messengers which cause the birth.

I agree 100% with your last comment. I see no way as how fetus can make any decision in the womb.

Dear Narayanan,

In our country they recommend that you record your heart beats so that the baby can listen to them. I put my child through music already in uterus and he is in that profession now. A fetus is a living creature and  aware of many things.I had the rare experience -  and it was against recommendations- of being pregnant  in psychoanalysis  and it was the most fruitful period in the whole process, the symbiotic experience  and I have a better understanding for that child. I am though sure that a woman's psychological feelings of well being affect the time a natural spontaneous delivery takes place. A sudden change of weather is thought to instigate an onset of labor such as a thunder storm or moon in a certain phase. This is also contradicted but here is a paper of interest:

Arch Gynecol Obstet. 2007 Apr;275(4):249-54. Epub 2006 Sep 27.

Spontaneous delivery is related to barometric pressure.

Akutagawa O, Nishi H, Isaka K.

A causal relationship was noted between the number of rupture of the fetal membranes, delivery and barometric pressure, suggesting that low barometric pressure induces rupture of the fetal membranes and delivery.

A paper about the fetus' conscious mind:

Mens Sana Monogr. 2012 Jan;10(1):98-108. doi: 10.4103/0973-1229.85495.

The Foetal 'Mind' as a Reflection of its Inner Self: Evidence from Colour Doppler Ultrasound of Foetal MCA.

Kachewar SG, Gandage SG.

Abstract

The unborn healthy foetus is looked upon as a blessing by one and all. A plethora of thoughts arise in the brains of expectant parents. But what goes on in the brain of the yet unborn still remains a mystery. 'Foetal mind' is a reflection of functions of its organs of sense, an instrument of knowledge that may even be reduced to machine to demonstrate the effect of sense organs and brain contact. Testimony to this fact are the various waveform patterns obtained non-invasively from the foetal Middle Cerebral Artery (MCA) by using Colour Doppler Ultrasound. Our study, conducted for evaluating the foetal MCA in a rural obstetric population in Maharashtra, India, explains how the MCA - a major artery supplying foetal brain, can give abundant information about foetal heart and foetal stress. When only the foetal heart is stressed by the presence of arrhythmias or ectopic beats, these changes are manifest in the foetal MCA velocity waveform pattern as seen on Colour Doppler study. When the entire foetus is under stress, as in cases of intra uterine growth retardation (IUGR), changes again manifest in the foetal MCA velocity waveform pattern and are designated as the foetal Brain Sparing Effect. Thus scientific evaluation of foetal MCA waveform can objectively demonstrate that the overtly non-communicating foetal brain indeed remains an internal organ of sense and a vital instrument of knowledge to clarify the various effects of sense organs and brain contact. Although the brain parenchyma or cerebral metabolism has not been studied here, cerebral vessels serve as a window to cerebral metabolism, as auto regulatory function of brain leads to changes in haemodynamics of cerebral vessels. Also, like other vessels, MCA mirrors foetal distress and IUGR; but unlike other vessels, e.g. the umbilical or uterine artery, which show these changes in the form of reduction or even reversal of diastolic flow, MCA shows an increase in diastolic component due to brain sparing effect. The unique connection between physical changes in the foetal heart, brain and mental operations are thus critically clarified to some extent, and this helps untangle and comprehend the lattice of mental operations. Although this preliminary study has its limitations, it still carries forward the present corpus of knowledge on the strength of its evidential and critical enquiry and helps unravel the concept of foetal consciousness.

Some speculation:

Pregnancy is about 9 months and apparently disconnected from (1) the size of the mother, (2) the size of the baby or (3) the relationship between the size of the baby and size of the mother.

I would not be surprised that genes involved in the development of the baby are activated at ca. 9 months after conception to release neuroendocrine stimuli that reach via the vascular system the mother's neuroendocrine system to activate the physiological processes inducing birth.   

cf. PNAS article in mice (Hanno's information)

But of course, there may also be environmental factors speeding up the process, e.g. related to the mother's mental state?

Dear Marcel,

Yes Finnish sauna (where they used to give birth once upon a time) :)

Hi Friends:

Thanks all for answering.

Maria, an Anatomy expert who knows Embryology too, and is more importantly a teacher, was of the opinion that in both physiologically and philosophically, moment of childbirth is the result of common efforts of both mother and child in cooperation. Hanno, whom I can say is of immense and broad experience in many areas of science and philosophy, delved into the question and supplied direct evidence for a protein from the foetus that does, in a way, indeed tell the uterus that it is mature to get outside. He believes that the foetus can ‘feel’ the outside world in many ways, but still is convinced there is no defined mental process like "get out here" or "I want out here. Béatrice Marianne, Psychologiss and NeuroPsychologists, and more over a mother who thought of her child ‘experiencing the outside’, was of the opinion that it was the weight of the baby that could contribute to the Uterus deciding to act. She could also supply an article which showed that unlike the blood flow in other arteries, the middle carotid artery of foetus is not affected by foetal stress (which may in turn mean that the brain is spared of stress; which in turn may in its turn mean that: (if the foetus can think), it is likely to ‘remain clear headed during the stress of birth process: The italicised is my interpretation). Vilemar, Biologist-cum-Theologist, opined that the foetus essentially has no part in this decision. Marcel, an evolutionary biologist, speculated that the foetus is genetically programmed to tell the uterus, by neuro-endocrine means, that it is mature, plus there may be environmental factors, something that Marianne had suggested.

All in all, a good discussion.

I had asked the question because, according to some parts of Hindu scriptures, a foetus does know about the outside world and does think about having to be born. I plan to write something on this.

Thank you all

Narayanan

its the CREATOR who decides. Physiologically maturity of fetus and placenta are most important factors in a normal pregnancy.

Thank you, Syed