weakness

Religious leaders show great wisdom, courage, and love for the people, those who are members of their denominations and all of their fellow humans on Earth, when they make difficult decisions like temporarily suspending some religious services and religious practices in order to prevent the spread of COVID-19.

Estimado Cosmin, te contesto desde las medidas que se han tomado para los católicos en toda España. Comulgar en la mano (algo que se hace desde siempre, pues es muy difícil que el sacerdote ofrezca el vino), que los sacerdotes y diáconos se laven bien las manos para dar la comunión. En este sentido nada se pierde del rito y del dogma de fe de comulgar con el Cuerpo de Cristo. En el caso de rituales menores, el de purificación con el agua bendita de la pila de la entrada no es obligatorio, hay iglesias que tienen agua bendita y otras no (se ha retirado el agua y no pasa nada) y respecto al gesto de la paz, en vez de estrechar las manos se acepta el saludo con una inclinación de la cabeza.

hi

weakness

@ Feteshteh: we heard you the first time; there is no reason to keep telling the same thing. Instead, you could enlarge your swift answer with academic and logical arguments, and not with accusations or other negative allegations that are not sustained. TKS

@ Nancy: The thing is that religious rituals and gatherings are, almost everywhere, the core facts that prove religiousness. To give up to them would mean that believers give up proving religiousness, equaling with apostasy for the fundamentalists. Therefore, this kind of measure would be regarded as giving up faith, God, and someone would rather consider it more important to keep proving their religiousness in spite of the threat caused by COVID19. We can address this threat as any other one that created martyrs who gave up their freedom of choice to life over proving religiousness or we can give up on it and try to adapt in order to survive as a group of humans. What do you think?

@ Pablo Jesús : English, please! Tks

In the meanwhile, with Google translate's help, i understood the measures took by the RomanCatholic Church for the moment. I need to confirm more of them so that we can publish a public paper with these adaptations of religious acts during a medical crisis such as CoVid19. If there are other theologians that can answer to this pressing issue should do it with responsibility.

Should we care more to the earthly people's concern or should we stay firm, upright, and protect religious content from adaptations and becoming?

By the way, how would you comment on these changes you spoke of, Pablo?

God ask our wisdom. If is not necessary we are not going into the fire counting on our Faith. So the measures are right.

Dear researchers have a nice Sunday. My question regard the nature of Lombardia (N. Italy) Coronavirus: its death rate is not compatible with COVID19 but with SARS. WHY??? >> see data >> https://www.researchgate.net/post/The_novel_Coronavirus_in_N_Italy_Lombardia_COVID19_2019nCoV_SARSCoV2_shows_a_fatality_rate_compatible_with_SARS_Why

@Salvatore, we acknowledge the modifications this new coronavirus took so that our Emergency decree in Romania mentions it as Sars-CoV-2. Thank you for this update!

@Janet, the problem with religious communities [in this regard, of closing them] is that we have faith in God, as the supreme power over ALL, including this virus. That means that regardless of the 'scheme' this pandemic outbreak might take/have, it should not affect the 'chosen ones' (Bible, Mark 16: 17-18). How can we determine those God-trusting people to deny their core belief in the threats-overtaking-power of God?

Due to the birthday celebration which attended 250 people and one infected person, over 200 people is quarantined today in one small city in Serbia. The exact number of infected is not announced...We can just imagine...

So, with respect to all religions I ask myself as well as others what religious rituals should be performed in religious objects these days, anywhere in the world?.

Cosmin Tudor Ciocan ,

Religious martyrdom occurs when practitioners of the faith are persecuted by miscreants. The Pope, for example, does not wish for Catholics to be victims of a disease as a result of viral spores being spread during his benediction, while partaking of the Holy Eucharist, dipping into Holy Water contaminated with COVID-19 virus, and so on. Worshipers gathering together at the behest of a religious leader and as a result contracting a deadly disease are not "martyrs" but victims of their religious leader's lack of wisdom, lack of courage, and lack of caritas (charitable love). Again, I repeat, martyrs are victims of enemies, not well-meaning but ignorant religious leaders. In fact, there are no reports of religious leaders telling their congregations to disobey medical advisories and government officials.

Dear Nancy Ann Watanabe, this is the kind of discussion I was expecting when posting this thread - you will see i am not taking any side on neither answers, for I am just looking for the best reasoning on either one. Thank you!

I was just writing about this 'shield-excuse' that perhaps all religious leaders took in their defense when eventually taking caution measures of adapting religious rituals and habits to survive. Thus, I totally agree with you in this - that traditionally, making a martyr meant that one would have to face another rationale, intended person who tried to corrupt him from his beliefs. In fact, all the other ancient threats religious beliefs faced throughout history and made a stand even with the cost of human lives [martyrs] were initiated by other humans and that was declared as ‘temptation’ made in the logical, rational, and voluntary initiative. Now, in opposition to all other voluntary temptations, this Covid-19 crisis is not proved to be a rational initiative, but a biological threat. Therefore, facing a biological threat for humanity, religions stand dawn with their resistance to adapt and changed so that they can survive. Now here is my 'devil advocacy':

You may be heard that there are so many religious groups such as 'The Followers of Christ' or 'Jehovah's Witnesses' [https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/07/health/religion-medical-treatment/index.html ], who deny extreme medical measures [their religion refuses to accept blood transfusions, or even avoiding flu vaccination]. Their beliefs are thus not facing a personal temptation, but rather a one coming from the animal kingdom, or even from less. All these 'temptation', even if not coming from a direct intentional personal act, stands nonetheless as a temptation given by God in various forms and types. Why would be Covid-19 any different?

Jelena B Popović-Djordjević, your query is legitimate as is the answer to that from any not necessarily fundamentalist: if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed... (Luke 17:6). Thus, it will all come to the subjective state of faith if you are asking yourself such Qs. Some, with more or stronger faith, would don't consider self-sacrifice to stand in the front line of medical care for others' sake, while others, with less faith, would rather stay indoors out of fear, giving a reasonable reason to any challenge his conscious might raise against this somehow selfishness motif of self-preservation, that, to him, acts more against public aids. Thank you for interfering! Be welcome to defend your conclusion further on...

In Islamic countries collective salat is organized five times a day. The Friday salat is with a mandatory presence for all individuals. Tunisia has chosen to suspend all prayers without notice from the religious authorities of Ifa. Algeria spreads prayer photos of worshipers at a distance of one meter between them, but it did not take long to close the mosques. The Turkish, on the other hand, chose to decontaminate the mosques. The most striking image is the suspension of visits to Mekka, Elomra and the photo of the empty Kabaa.

What was decisive in all of these decisions was the message from the Prophet of Islam, Mohammed, about the plague: "If you hear about it on earth, do not enter it and if it falls on earth while you there you are, don't get out of it to escape. "

 The previous media image of China and Italy gave an idea and an awareness of the extent of the epidemic in statistical terms with scientific data allowing a clear vision of the situation.

Dear Anis Turki, this is an excellent overview of how Islamic countries have responded to the outbreak of Covid19! Thank you for that! Now, regarding the question in this regard, what do you think of those Islamic decisions: should they be or not quarantined? Should religious people - the last one to which humans, in general, turned to in this sorrow days for receiving a bit of faith that it will be over someday - stop public prayers or continue and ask for miracles as they did in the ancient times when the legends and myths were born in all the holy books that comfort us in grave times?

Thanks dear Cosmin Tudor Ciocan

When science fails it would be the legend.

Religion is a metaphysical explanation of the existence of death and the need for eternity.

Religious discourse and scientific discourse complement each other and one cannot replace the other.

The results of each country will determine their perception of the facts.

China will justify its autocracy and its seriousness.

All eyes are now on science, procedures and strategies.

...also there are lots of scientists -doctors and researchers- that say „this is the moment you stay indoors and pray for us that we succeed in fighting this virus”! So, indeed „ Religions and sciences complement each other ”, but not in discourse, but in methods and explanations towards a mutual aim. That is why right now mostly religions follow the instructions of science that is, in this case, more trained to fight this outbreak. But in the despair of finding solutions that will be of real use, science also lets religion take some lead since we know so little about IT.

In the case of churches that have customs as deep-rooted as the ones you mention, it seems to me that we are witnessing a change that perhaps in the future will change the way in which people carry their religion. With regard to Protestant religions, which do not usually present this type of activity, I believe that there will not be a significant change. Now, I consider that taking these measures is not a case of populism, weakness of faith or something similar. It is a social responsibility to abide by the needs that are required to combat the current situation. Religious activities can be carried out freely in their homes.

This question reminds me of the verse in Matthew 22:21, when God responds to the Pharisees about giving tribute.

The question you are asking is interesting.

Dear Monica Sarai Ramirez, thank you very much for your intervention. It is indeed the case for these global changes, even if these assumptions on the Protestant faiths may or may be not as you said. However thou, I am fully aware that these abiding measures all religions took are for the best concern to their followers, even if the fundamentalists and conservatives do not agree on that at all. In this regard I would like to ask further on a next Q:

What are the logical/dogmatical/moral/et all. reasons for religions to take into consideration the restrictions on religious acts?

Explanation: Besides this ethical argumentation - i.e. that religious leadership needs to seek careful protection on their followers' health - could be any other reasons 'we' can bring into discussion, so that, in the end, the conservatives will also agree with these measures?

There are two issues @ stake here: First, are the measures taken by religious authorities appropriate for the Covid-19 threat?, & Second, would they be warranted for a more contagious, more widespread disease?

To the first question: There is little to suggest that Covid-19 is significantly more dangerous or deadly than the flu. There are many studies out there, as well as official CDC stats, that seem to suggest that. For example: Preprint COVID-19 Antibody Seroprevalence in Santa Clara County, California

So, the question are the measures churches are taking now something we should have been doing for years every flu season? As an Orthodox Christian, I posit no. I think that the benefits of community and the reception of the real presence of God in the Eucharist outweigh any negative effects of disease transmission, even amongst old and sick people. Human life on earth is less important than eternal life, & church gatherings are one of the most important ways of achieving eternal life.

That said, I am in no wise criticising the actions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate or any other bishop, who have grace from God to aid them in making much better decisions than I could. However, the decision to close the churches, so far as I can tell, is not so much out of fear of the virus as fear of governmental authorities. This is a much more complicated issue &, I think, the answer varies from country to country. In countries, such as Greece, where Orthodoxy is the official religion, the state has an obligation to uphold the precepts of the religion, & when it fails to do so, the people have a right to push back & hold the government accountable. Similarly, in Muslim states, the government has the obligation to uphold Muslim religious precepts. In overtly secular countries, however, people have no right to expect the government to support their religion & must be willing to accept the non-religious precepts of the government.

Second question: does this still hold when we are talking about the bubonic plague, or some similarly devastating disease? I still say that, for those who believe that God is the creator & orchestrator of the world, He, & not quarantine, is what is going to save us & that miracles are more likely to occur if people show up to church & that not showing up to church is unlikely to protect people, since they still have to interact with each other to meet day-to-day life needs. Is one really more likely to get sick in church than in walmart? However, traditionally throughout the ages there has been ministry to sick people unable to come to church, so I am willing to concede that there is a time & place for encouraging people not to come to church if they are unable.

There might be several ways to think about it. Yet, God faith is something very distant from corporal or physical expressions, because in principle is an spirit. Catholicism has been highly criticised for bringing on several rituals to keep people interested in physical things, depending on them, such as the "Communion" given, or the "Holly water", thus, this might affect enormously the way they are defined. Likewise, Protestantism, tends to use a lot the gathering of people around their communities, and pray together, as well as other religions. Therefore, regardless of if they think that keeping they cult is more important for eternal life, church leaders will have to take a positioning on the matter, and this might not challenge the science or the governments, because in most countries they do not make the laws anymore. Indeed, it is an interesting thing to think a about, whether the religion is going to change their control means used until now, to keep people interested, and above all, to keep getting money out of their pocket. A believer that only believe and do not participate in their cults, do not represent power, control and money.

Regarding this 'right suppression,' and the 'diligence' of religions, I can say that in our country [Romania] the State expressly asked for some religious rituals to be banned or alter indefinitely. This is not about some particular and secondary acts, but about the crucial one, of Holy Communion for public to be given with personal, single-used means, spoon or chalice. Now, when the lockdown is no longer the case, they specifically interdict the Orthodox Church to communicate Eucharist to the public. It is unprecedented and even if devotees come to Church they still cannot be publically communicated. The Orthodox Church took no stand and it only said to priests to make people wait for a common decision of all Orthodox Churches on June 1st. Awkward!

Dear Ioannis Flanders , this is a wonderful and expressive approach. However, it is not the case with religious leaders to consider that and, due to that, they are moreover considering altering the rituals, even the communication of Eucharist to people. I read many articles on both direction, Con & Pro, common single-spoon or single Chalice, and all are substantiated on strong grounds, theological or missionary, so that, while reading one, you tend to agree with the author in question.

Dear Cristina Ibarra , your answer is also interesting and good to consider. Please extend the part with 'Catholicism has been highly criticized' if you have some reference on that point. Also, considering that religion asserts its origin from the divine, and not as humanly doing, you can thus understand the hardness of altering rituals and ancient tradition. Indeed, on the same context, we cannot understand its the lightness and promiscuity of accommodating worship to external, secular requirements, as long as the assumption was that what religion brings into this world does not belong to it (John 17:14)

In modern English, a cult is a social group that is defined by its unusual religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or by its common interest in a particular personality, object or goal. Christians followers follow the Orthodox teachings of the Apostles given by Jesus Christ. I will share two things Jesus said about giving and praying that can be found in the 6th chapter of Matthew. I will be using the ICB (International Children's Bible to explain these verses.)

1. About giving Jesus said in Matthew 6:1, "Be Careful! When you do good things, don't do them in front of people to be seen by them. If you do that, then you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2, When you give to the poor, don't be like the hypocrites. They blow trumpets before they give so that people will see them. They do that in the synagogues and on the streets. They want other people to honor them. I tell you the truth. Those hypocrites already have their full reward. 3, So when you give to the poor, give very secretly. Don't let anyone know what you are doing. 4, Your giving should be done in secret. Your Father can see what is done in secret, and he will reward you."

2. About praying he said, in Matthew 6:5, "When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites. They love to stand in the churches and on the street corners and pray loudly. They want people to see them pray. I tell you the truth. They alread have their full reward. 6, When you pray, you should go into your room and close the door. Then pray to your Father who cannot be seen. Your Father can see what is done in secret, and he will reward you."

(The definition for cult was taken from Wikipedia.com)

Faith Bays, and your answer related to our Q will be...what?

Cosmin, if you were lost and didn't know what to do and someone came along and gave you a map that showed you how to reach your home wouldn't you appreciate them for this advice. I suggest we follow the map in prayer that Jesus, the Son of God, has laid out for us, that way we know we will reach the Heavenly Father and get the answer we need. God Bless!!!