Very interesting, Demetris.
Usually, we consider wave nature of light, though Einstein mc^2 combine both the entities.
Where do you use gauge invariance?
Your gedanken experiment is skilful, indeed.
However, “if Spirit, Soul has to be treated as a non material form of light”, it is not rule out its wave form, as well as the wave form of light.
What don’t I grasp?
first thing the existence of spirit is itself very controversial .....
couple of years ago i read a report about an experiment related to human spirit .
A nazi (at time of Hitler ) doctor measures the weight of a patient who was about to die and when he measure the weight after he died .... he found a decrement in the weight ..
I can't say anything about the authenticity of the article..,,,
may be he is wrong but this question haunts me also does spirit really exists???
what about those haunted stories which people have experienced about bad spirits or ??
Dear Suresh,
Your approach is very near my intuition, due to which these questions arose. However, I never could formulate the answer so precisely, as you. Thank you very much, indeed.
Galina
Dear Martin,
Thank you for very original and striking associations. I believe, that your question: “What happens to information when its carrier enters into the black hole?” deserves even separate discussion. It is very interesting also vivification of things in some ancient cultures and old beliefs. Galina
OK, Suresh,
I understand, that nothing new exists under the Sun. Nevertheless, is it not beautiful that eternal truths obsess us again and again? Are they achieved never?
Nice topic! According to my intuition, consciousness (which I think spirit is made of) is interwoven with that what we speak of as 'energy' and 'matter'; In the sense that consciousness might be some kind of energy (itself) which structures them in the physical world, but also as the creator of these concepts in the first place. Hans-Peter Dürr compared consciousness to quantum fields. When I understood him right, he said that consciousness or spirit can be seen as a kind of 'form without substance' (a concept which is very difficult for us to think), which determines the evolvement of the actual formations of energy before and while it occurs. I am not very deep into physics but I think experiments like the double-slit experiment show that the very act of observation determines the 'decision-processes' of energy. And since Heisenbergs Uncertainty we know that our concepts of waves and particles are self-constructed concepts. Maybe all beings which possess spirit are connected by some kind of entanglement, since all the (potential) 'spirit-energy' probably was one at an early stage of the universe. I am aware that things are getting very spiritual and probably 'unscientific' here.
However I think that when we try to scientifically approach the very question of what consciousness is, we should alter our methods, since consciousness is the pre-condition and source of all our strategies of objectifying the world. But I think we cannot really objectify consciousness itself, since we are not able to create distance between ourself and our consciousness, because we cannot imagine experiencing being unconscious. The same applies for the present. It's always now and it's always consciousness in our subjective reality. Therefore, I think, we have to develop a new methodology before we can properly address these basic questions scientifically.
Martin, I also think that consciousness is information. But at the same time it is the receiver and processor of the information. Husserl described consciousness as an ever fluctuating network of noeses and noemata. Noesis as far as I understand it refers to the perceiving part of consciousness, the I-pole (reference missing) and it is always connected to noemata. A noema represents the 'object-pole'. These two poles form a totality, the process of consciousness, which Husserl called Intentionality.
I'm also personally inspired by Thich Nhat Than's concept of Inter-being, which states that everything gives birth to each other. He describes a sheet of paper and he says this sheet of paper has no own, separate, persisting self. Therefore it is empty. Instead it consists of other things, like clouds, rain, trees and the work of people. Following the Buddhist perspective I'm sure one can find freedom of suffering, by removing fear of death by accepting the notions of Impermanence, Interbeing and Noself.
I think Buddhism is a philosophy of constructivism and one possible method or paradigm of interpreting the world (like 'western science'). I would be very happy if it would be common to include a section of introspection into research reports, since everything has a subjective component.
Thanks for the interesting conversation!
Thank you very much, Jonte. Your answer clears a new stage of knowledge, and future will show whether it is scientific or not. It seems, “Maybe all beings which possess spirit are connected by some kind of entanglement, since all the (potential) 'spirit-energy' probably was one at an early stage of the universe” is very constructive idea, especially, if we’ll remember the role of similar conception in physics.
Your thought is striking that new methodology is required in study of this field due to
“consciousness is the pre-condition and source of all our strategies of objectifying the world”.
The only logical approach to this problem (of course, hardly scientific) is, apparently, to learn to stop Time.
Nevertheless, your intuition points, perhaps, a valid way, once more, if you look for decisions in Oriental cultures. As supposed, the time during meditation could slow down, or even quite stop.
According to present medicine, the average time when the patient can be restored after the clinical death is 4-5 min, but in the conditions of slowing down metabolism (e.g. due to cooling) it may be reach 10-15 min. There are legends that some of the most luminous intellects of the Orient could switch out the time in full, i.e. they could stop all the processes in their organisms for a long time. How did they reach it? By meditation only, or some yogic exercises should be required? Or, may be, their will power was the main factor, was not it?
If we could master control over Time, which strategy would be imagine for deriving a sense of spirit? A spirit, which is not a substance in 3 or 4 dimensions.
Galina
Galina, actually I was wondering where the idea comes from that dark energy could be spirit. To be honest I always saw the idea of dark matter as a prime example for the desperate human need to keep up old theories and models, regardless of new observations which do not fit the old explanations. But to read this idea from you, from a physicist, feels really inspiring. I would strongly appreciate it if you could explain how this idea evolved.
I also heard stories of people who can slow down their metabolism (for example Ram Bahadur Bomjon). Maybe that's possible, but I'm wondering if consciousness than also slows down. I'm afraid I have never been such deep in meditation that I could say something relevant about this.
To Jonte Vowinckel:
Your intuition is valid again. I beg your pardon, but initially my question was rather comic, indeed, conditioned just by using dark energy to explain everything. Meanwhile now, on closer examination, I suppose, it may be defensible. Conception of dark energy is hypothetical physical essence, a cosmological constant, existence of which decides many problems between theories and observations in cosmology; first of all, the expansion of the Universe is speeding up. It is possible, if dark energy is energy of waste space, more exactly, energy of absolute vacuum with a negative density, which allows it to oppose gravitation. You may find a lot of interesting materials and lectures for any level of knowledge in Internet, e.g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9bp0ex8ps0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6IBoa4FxvY
Quite other question is spirit. We know it as religion or abstract philosophical notion. May we glance for it from the physical point of view? If, yes, the first association arises that spirit is a kind of energy, e.g. our energy, as the nearest for us. Of course, I know on the subject much less than anybody specialized in the field. However, basing on RG discussion on my question “On varying speed of flow of time…” (mainly, with Sidney Clouston, all citations below are his ones), I may suppose that spirit has some properties.
Analogously to dark energy, spirit is a property of blank state, state without thoughts, because “Thoughts are things”. “Meditation is more like listening with your heart and soul”. I have no any experience in meditation, but as I understand, the highest level of meditation is Meditation on Nothing:
“This is part of the tradition of a Koan in Zen. "Those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know" Thus when we say to become aware of Nothing or "No-thing", the prayer or speaking are needing things. Thoughts are things. The awareness of No-thing is being aware of pure consciousness. I (SC) think it is like the difference of Wave vs. Particle in Quantum Mechanics. This is Formless and Form respectively. The Gateless Gate is another interesting analogy. You become the River that enters the Ocean and become one with it. Or a drop in the separate spray of water that returns to the source spirit Ocean. This is the Yoga of atman joining Atman”. There are many interesting dictums else in that discussion.
Owing to witnesses of the restored persons after their clinical death, we know the phenomenon that soul or spirit of the dead people hover over their bodies. May we suspect that spirit has negative density, which helps to oppose to gravitation?
In any case, if we are able to find any features of spirit, it means that we consider it as a real physical essence, don’t we?
As a result, if we don’t know exactly what spirit is and what dark energy is, who can forbid us to suppose that spirit is dark energy? (It is interesting, nevertheless, that contra versa is rather nonsense).
Returning to new methodology, surely, you don’t need to fall into so deep meditation. A question is whether a strategy would be imagine for deriving a sense of spirit in a gedanken experiment, if we could master control over Time? Thank you.
To Suresh Kumar:
Unexpected comment. I remember, Suresh, that you are skill in thermodynamic and stat. physics: your remark (on my other question in RG) that entropy changes following age increase is prominent. In the present your answer I, maybe, don’t understand any. Let us consider it successively and calmly.
In your fragment:
“[there is an inversion of Boltzman statistics and function for particle energy distribution,with greater numbers predominating---that condition of negative temperature can lead to dark matter/energy like effects]” –
1. greater numbers OF WHAT (?) predominating
2. dark matter/energy like effects (WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS?)
Further:
“as a result it is possible for a distant observer to miss the masss due to enhanced mass/energy effects from negative temp domains”
1. What do you mean TO MISS THE MASS?
2. enhanced mass/energy effects (WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS?)
3. from negative temp domains (WHAT ARE THE NEGATIVE TEMP DOMAINS?)
The theories of explosions are elaborated well enough, including those of supernovae of different kinds, even Sn Ia (e.g. deflagration to detonation). As I understand you mean Sn II. If at Sn II explosions dark energy arises, the quantity of the dark energy in the Universe has to be increased, similarly to the increase of heavy elements, star metallicity, etc. Is it in accordance with the present dark matter conception?
To Martin Kovar:
I believe, Martin, that you know my position. I have raised questions, but I have not laid down assertions, so that any criticism is the most valuable. Besides, I asked to present any other opinions on the nature (if it may be so-called) of spirit.
In the light of your and my answer to Jonte, may we suppose, that the content of the notion 'Spirit' might be much wider than ‘Consciousness’, as well as ‘Dark energy’ might be much wider than ‘Spirit’ (certainly, if we agree with their general energetic nature)?
Don’t forget to be cautious.
Dear Galina and Martin, thank you very much for your detailed answers. I think most important with respect to stay cautious is defining the concepts we are using. I cannot completely agree on the notion that spirit is much wider than consciousness. I think consciousness is the wider concept, which contains other concepts like awareness of awareness itself and all stimuli deriving from the inner and outer world, which can be detectable by introspective and 'extrospective' perception (limited by biological boundaries of our nervous systems as well as by individually developed conceptual frameworks which are 'priming' the interpretations but also the very perceptions we are doing). When we practice to become more and more aware of the limitations of our consciousness, or lets say the manners of our personal consciousness to deform information from the outer world while it enters our consciousness, I think, we can slowly approach concepts like emptiness. I think spirit is a facet of consciousness or one possible condition of aggregation of consciousness. Probably when we meditate on emptiness and impermanence as basic conditions of existence, we feel at a certain point that our consciousness becomes more and more emancipated and autonomous from its contents. Then probably we become aware of consciousness itself, which might feel as being connected or one with our spirit. Is this just my subjective view on these concepts or can you also relate to the notion that spirit might be a concept of a pure, 'emancipated', and highly self-aware form of consciousness, which feels as 'existing' autonomously?
Dear Jonte,
As I understand, your initial position is: Consciousness determines being. Consciousness is primary, matter is secondary.
I am happy to meet at last a philosopher-idealist, which is a legend only in our socialistic life. It is very interesting, how from two opposite initial points, quite different conceptions are constructed. I understand very well that your logical process is impeccable, but I cannot feel it myself. It is quite natural for me that Consciousness < Spirit < Our Energy < Dark Energy. Surely, you are right that defining the concepts we are using is most important. My tools are physical entities, while your tools are some abstract notions, as awareness, information, language, etc. It is interesting that in the end extremes meet: your emptiness and absolute vacuum. But !!! It seems that content of those forms is different, once again: Consciousness and Dark Energy, respectively.
Is it game of our mind? Is it game of God?
To Martin Kovar:
Very interesting comparisons and confrontations, Martin! Thank you.
I was always exasperated, if I could not make an agreement with anybody, if our initial positions were opposite. So, I was always sorry that oppositions of materialists and idealists would finish never.
Surely, you are right, Martin.
I never consider myself as typical materialist, because just my doubts lead me further, as a rule. My question on this site demonstrates my initial uncertainty. I am very glad to meet Jonte’s conception, so unusual for me, and see its further development. However, when I tried to stand up for his point of view, I felt that my physical perception of world don’t allow me to do it.
Of course, I believe that the time “of fighting to one another” is left in ideological past. Moreover, I like very much such logic developed, faultless, but intangible conception.
However, I clearly see in the same time, that no “unifying point, anywhere there, on transcendental prolongation” of both conceptions could be achieved (though, there is opinion and hope that extremes meet). Even “both possibilities, having the formless form”, e.g. ideal emptiness and absolute vacuum, will coincident at last, it turns out all the same that their virtual content will be different, namely, conscientiousness and dark energy, and a question will arise, once more, which notion is more large, more general: which one devours another.
Your “some 'vertical' dimension” is very imaginative. Just such aspiration to get off, to achieve absolute truth, to draw near God is a main stimulus of our creation forever.
Dear Galina, I certainly don't know about Spirit. But for dark energy I think that is not well defined and we have not a stable theory about it, only claims, arguments and nothing else that is experimentally testable. So, we can dismiss Spirit from dark energy. Even with other arguments, 'everything is light' and not darkness...
I shall come back later...
As I understand Dark Energy, I would claim this force to be that of the Voidal force or primeval force. Spirit, if it is anything at all, must be something that comes after the formation of the cosmos; therefore, I would claim the spirit, if it be so, to be not of Dark Energy, for Dark Energy predates the formation of the cosmos.
Before answering this question probably it is necessary to answered first the question of existence: Does Spirit really exist or is it another human creative projection? Personally I have not answered this question, sorry for this lack.. But if we accept the existence, then we have two possibilities:
1)either Spirit is part of our local universe, so we can accept something similar to the theory of Panagiotis, see above
2)either Spirit is not part of our universe and it is an entity of a more general creation sequence.
I have noticed that for every historical human session, the term Spirit, Soul or what else is directly projected on the high-end theories of that era: Today, quantum theories and dark energy aspects. Probably, if existence is true, Spirit is outside the natural science of today...
Dear Dimitris,
I thank you for your reply to the last posting of mine.
The title [ part] of the whole question [is spirit our energy ?] involves a philosopical concept "spirit" together with the real entities "energy" and the word "our" [human beings].
I understand that answers given cannot escape from being [ at least ] purely philosophical.
A few things more: Consciousness is way late in the game or it is after the fact, after the fact of being; secondly, spirit is nothing more than an attribute of consciousness, hence, it is quite possible it is created in the mind, much as the self is. If the latter statement be true, then it is futile to attempt to relate spirit to anything outside of ourselves.
To Suresh Kumar:
Thank you for amusing jokes.
It would be much unexpected, indeed, to find negative temperature domains in the conditions of nuclear statistical equilibrium of neutronized core of massive stars (where at 4 × 10^9 K protons are transformed into neutrons with electron absorption and neutrino emission).
The most enigmatic is also your answer to my question: What do you mean TO MISS THE MASS?:
“What do you mean TO MISS THE MASS?-this is new theory of mine ,and prominent researchers in the area of missing mass like dark matter are interested in this theory of mine, which has also appear as an e-letter in the very prestigious journal SCIENCE as article comment/commentary section brief (see below):
“As observed, sleep deprivation decreased functional connectivity between the posterior cingulate cortex and the bilateral anterior cingulate cortex [ACC].It is well known that ACC is associated with both emotion and cognition as an interphase. The inhibition of the default network for stream of self referential thought in brain, as happens in slow wave sleep, enables subdued activity in prefrontal cortex which is linked to neuronal implementation of self states with its cortical associations involving ancient brain structures also. The right frontal lobe is thought to establish a self boundary, where diffuse modulatory systems like Locus Coerulus [LC] situated in the middle brain plays a supporting role as a push button for self states. The LC has extrasynaptic neurotransmitter based connectivities which play a crucial role as it links up multiple brain locations. LC which is located just above the primary brain stem circuitry, has only a few neurons, and its coordination through astroglial networks is very important in self states and its subjective domain. Studies have revealed that when LC is inhibited, the subjective awareness is also subdued, which correspond to slow wave sleep brain state. The active role of astroglial network in the subjective cognitve context is not well known, though it can be presumed to play crucial role in brain information processing protocols, and its criterion of consciousness. The fact that the cognitive control due to sleep deprivation contributes to treatment strategies in depressive conditions would derive possibly from a subdued subjective cognitive context due to astroglial network information functions. Depressive psychosis is also linked to deficiencies in the astroglial cell network, which inter alia point to a more pronounced role for the glial cells in subjective cognitive context. This is presumably defective in the case of depression afflicted patients, so that neuronal network activities for cognitive control assume greater significance as a treatment option, for counter. But this would imply a supranormal load on the neuronal network in cognitive states leading to its faster decline unless effective steps are taken to retard it. One of the mechanisms could be slow wave sleep like states of eastern meditation based on esoteric yoga and linked sazen methods that emphasise sleep-like breath patterns that are practiced in awareness. Hence the cognition control is combined with slow wave sleep like recharge effects.”
I believe that your “further interaction with prominent researchers on this theme” will lead to success.
Regarding our discussion, one may see your materialistic positions, because you look for natural, physical causes of phenomena in physical processes, as well as in our brain operation.
Thank you.
To Luisiana Cundin:
It is very interesting, Lui, that our first view on the problem is determined by our professional experience of world: the matter is primordial (your comment 1).
Later only we try to lose touch with reality and look for another point of view (your comment 2). Thank you.
Dear Panagiotis:
Your approach is very interesting. Let us remember, that in our childhood we tried to break down any new toy to find out from which it was done. From a psychological point of view I may suppose that your professional habits of creation, as geometrician, played its role: to find an initial element of the whole construction (perhaps, similar principal is inherent to 3D printer great invention, if it is real: see the comment of Ralph Samwell in our discussion “On varying speed of flow…”).
In any case your perception of electromagnetic nature of the Universe, including spirit, testifies to its real essence (fifth essence of Plato?) as material substance. Therefore, we have a chance to know some time, whether spirit and dark energy have similar nature or not. Thank you.
To Demetris Christopoulos:
OK, Demetris, I used to agree with you.
We have, indeed, two ways:
1. If we consider spirit as a creation of our mind only, we shut down any way to its study.
2. If we suspect that spirit is a substance of unknown nature, we must try to investigate it even if it is outside the natural science of today.
What have we? If we suppose that spirit is our energy, than we may admit its wave nature, which, in the most general, is similar to dark energy. And what is more: we have, at least, one same property of the both, namely, negative density. It is the main evident feature of the dark matter, which follows from the accelerated expansion of the Universe. On the other hand, owing to witnesses of the restored persons after their clinical death, we know the phenomenon that soul or spirit of the dead people hover over their bodies. It may mean that spirit has negative density, which helps to oppose to gravitation. In any case, if we are able to find any features of spirit, it means that we may consider it as a real physical essence. It appears that a methodology existed (see the first comment of Sarvesh Singh), but, perhaps, the expected results might be opposite due to negative density of spirit.
How difference does we see? Spirit proper to alive matter only, i.e. it may be the highest level of the dark energy evolution. Everybody agrees that life in the Universe (or on the Earth only?) is the halo of nature. We try to penetrate into the origin of life. Whether spirit is the best initial point in such investigation. As one may suppose, the most knowledge of spirit has been accumulated in Oriental sciences, but they don’t like to share this specific information.
Besides else, if spirit is an energy field, whether it is associated with biofield. What is a biofield? Extrasence invention? Or it is another designation of spirit? Or biofield is previous stage of spirit?...............
I understand, of course, that this invented problem is far of your professional interests. Nevertheless, if you have some fresh thoughts on the question, please, share them.
Dear Galina, it is not outside my professional interests. I'd like to share with you my wonder about the true nature of light. If we study the gauge fixing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_fixing
we shall find that there exists a remarkable variety of ways to define the same entity, the light. Starting from this point I think that Maxwell's equations (one of our Holy Readings in Physics) probably describe the propagation o f light throw any material medium and NOT the original sense of it. Light, despite what we argue, is not so well known. My main argument is this:
***Can you bring me a physical and well working device called 'vacuum light detector'?***
The answer is no: we need interaction with material or antimaterial, with energy (obvious or dark or whatever) in order to identify the light. So, either you prefer the potential A or the creation/annihilation operators |>
Very interesting, Demetris.
Usually, we consider wave nature of light, though Einstein mc^2 combine both the entities.
Where do you use gauge invariance?
Your gedanken experiment is skilful, indeed.
However, “if Spirit, Soul has to be treated as a non material form of light”, it is not rule out its wave form, as well as the wave form of light.
What don’t I grasp?
The medium is what is actually being vibrated and not the source: You may have a case where you emitt something and the receiver vibrates according to its normal modes, so the normal modes of material is the sinusoidal waves and not the original nature of wave. Don't ask me about that nature: Since everything is light and people who are living and then come back tell us they saw a light, then something interesting should exist. We are material beings and cannot vibrate otherwise: that's the reason why we have to act as Askites (anchoret) in order to be able to enter the light... sorry this is the payment.
As for our scientific egotism, that's another big story...
I shall come back.
Some complementary remarks:
1)If material is excited and de-excited then a photon emission will occur, but this kind of light is not the same as from a non material source of light. So, our apparatus is not only constrained by the material device detectors but also from our material light emission sources.
2)If we look up all foundamental equations in Physics we will notice that they are merely second order. This is not a coincidence. In fact it is a matter of our linear operators that we use in order to explain the transition from one state to another state (by the term state I do not mean mandatory a quantum state)
3)It is like the surface of the Earth, which is locally Euclidean, so our Geometry firstly was of this kind.
4)The easy of computations (see the gauge fixing in the Maxwell's equation B=del x A for the potential A) does not mean that we have found the true nature of light (so light is not the potential A or whatever mathematical entity we have defined). The only that manifest is the projection of light in the properties of material particles or whatever is material.
5)So, the problem of Spirit is not necessarily answerable with material arguments and entities. An interaction exists, but only a projection can be found.
In Timaeus [ 34 B…35.. 36 37.. ], Plato talks about the Soul:
[translation and comments ref: LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
PLATO IX Translated by R.G. BURY, ISBN 0-674-99257-1]
“ He made her of the materials and in the fashion which I shall now describe.
Midway between the Being which is indivisible and remains the always the same and the Being which is transient and divisible in bodies, He blended a third form of Being
Compounded out of the Same and the Other……and He took the three of them and blent them all together into one form, by forcing the Other into union with the Same….and made them one…..He began to distribute the whole thereof into so many portions….and each portion was a mixture of the Same, of the Other, and of Being.*1
[ έκ τε ταυτού και θατέρου καί της ουσίας μεμιγμένην]
And He began making the divisions thus:
First He took one portion from the whole;
then He took a portion double of this;
then a third portion, half as much again as the second portion, that is three times as much as the first;
the fourth portion He took was twice as much as the second;
the fifth three times as much as the third;
the sixth eight times as much as the first; and
the seventh twenty-seven times as much as the first.**2
After that He went on to fill up the intervals in the series of the powers of 2 and the intervals in the series of powers of 3 in the following manner***3:
He cut off yet further portions….. as to place two Means in each interval – one a Mean which exceeded its Extremes and was by them exceeded by the same proportional part or fraction of each of the Extremes respectively****4;
The other a Mean which exceeded one Extreme by the same number or integer as it was exceeded by other Extreme………
[comments in the translated text]:
*1 “…. on the Greek principle that like is known by like, Plato makes real substances out of these abstractions and puts them as plastic material into the hands of the Demiurgos for the formation of the Soul.”
**2 These seven numbers may be arranged in two branches, in order to show the two series of which Timaeus immediately goes to speak:
1(the 1st )
2(the 2nd ) 3( the 3rd )
4( the 4th ) 9( the 5th )
8( the 6th ) 27(the 7th )
***3 Lit. “the double intervals and the triple intervals.”
****4 The “ harmonic Mean”
….. The complete series of terms, from 1 to 27, making thirty-four in all, is intended to correspond with the notes of a musical scale, having a compass of four octaves and a major “ sixth”……
Thank you, Panagiotis. I wish to you, as well as to everyone in RG many new ideas and results, which could gladden us. Let the New Year be happy!
Galina
The answer to “what is the world really like?” is as much about our human self as about the world, in coordination with all other conscious beings and with the influence of the context of the entire universe, in shaping what our world is. We are co-creators of our bit in the universe – co-creators with God, if one chooses to use theistic terminology. Every species fits and evolves into an ecological niche of natural selection, as with Darwin’s Finches, the shape of the beak fits with the unique food source. Yet Humans shape the environmental world; are we in turn shaping ourselves as we evolve into the man made environment?
Is it so far fetched an idea that as humans are a product of the universe and are governed by the laws of the universe then perhaps our DNA is formed by the very same blue print that makes up the Universe? Genes make up only a minority of the entire genome sequence, about the same as universal observable matter. The remainder was once dismissed as "junk," mostly because its function remained elusive; "Dark matter" might be more appropriate name for this junk. Far from being useless, the non-coding part of DNA contains so-called regulatory regions or enhancers that determine when and where each gene is expressed. Is dark matter the same?
No one knows for sure, but it is not impossible that the universe is constructed in a very different way than the usual theories and models of today predict. The most widely used standard model today cannot explain everything in the universe, and therefore there is a need to explore the parts of nature which the model cannot explain. "New physics is about searching for unknown physical phenomena not known from the current perception of the universe. Such phenomena are inherently very difficult to detect," explains PhD student Matin Mojaza.
Many theories and models in particle physics today have the problem that they, together with their predictions, provide some parameters that are difficult to know how to set. "Physicists do not know what values they should give these parameters. For example, the Standard Model has unknown parameters, we cannot know whether they should be interpreted as conditions that support or oppose to the Standard Model -- this makes it quite difficult to study the Standard Model accurately enough to investigate its value," explains Matin Mojaza. There is an RG post going about math being a human contrivance or actually has a basis in reality.
The standard model has for the last approximately 50 years been the prevailing theory of how the universe is constructed. According to this theory, 16 (17 if we include the Higgs particle) subatomic particles form the basis for everything in the universe. Is it now necessary to look for new physics in the universe? Standard Model's major problem is that it cannot explain gravity, nor explain the existence of dark matter, believed to make up approximately 25 percent of all matter in the universe. In addition, the properties of the newly discovered GOD particle also know as the Higgs particle, as described in the standard model, is apparently incompatible with a stable universe. A popular theory of dark energy does not fit new results on the value of the proton mass divided by the electron mass in the early universe.
Does this mean we have the distinct feeling that dark matter represents a crisis for natural philosophy? Is there a human moral crisis happening as the God of the gaps, gets smaller and smaller as fewer and fewer people go to church and even less become priests? It is just really absurd that the measurement of all the mass in the universe indicates beyond reasonable doubt that this enormous discrepancy exists between what we can fathom and what the measurements say must be there. Like the soul, dark matter is said to not be composed of atoms and molecules. So if the majority of the Universe is now said to consist of something which we can't even conceive of - note we cannot conceive of it, we can't even guess what it is - then it is a crisis in cosmology. “The Universe is not just stranger than we suppose, it’s stranger than we CAN suppose”; the unknowable unknowns.
The crystallisation was initiated by the mind/matter dualism of Descartes, and in particular by his view that mind made up the human soul, which was a single indivisible entity having no place in physical space, equally present to every part of the body.
The endorsement of this view, first by some church’s and then by the emerging scientific establishment, installed it as the accepted reality for Western thinking.
“We are finding physical explanations for more and more phenomena, and the need for anything like spirit as an explanation is dwindling or gap closing. Though the explanations for phenomena are often couched in terms of sciences, these sciences all depend on physics for the description of the basic matter of which everything is composed, and in principle all these sciences could ultimately be reduced to physics.” Certainly the biological system works on collagen and functional available space, and two things are needed to make a universe, energy and space.
Or could it be that, as Gregory Bateson argued – all natural systems exhibit mind; and, moreover, the effect of mind is described by quantum logic? There is a long history of using consciousness as a means of completing quantum theory, running from Wigner to Penrose. Penrose’s theory is an exception, in that it is gravitation that influences the state, and the entire process is manifested as consciousness. It troubles me that human consciousness maybe the pinnacle of the universe but it is interesting that the universe might create something like humans in order to understand itself.
The other theories in this class suffer from a problem common to most forms of interactionist dualism, where consciousness is regarded as a separate layer of reality from the physical: what exactly is it that consciousness is supposed to do, that material entities cannot do, and how exactly does an immaterial consciousness interact with a material universe or how does observable matter interact with dark matter? But mere human observation does change the result but not enough to quieten the falling tree. Consciousness is thus concerned with establishing the patterns of meaning within which physical reality manifests itself; and quantum physics presents precisely the appropriate amount of indeterminism and flexibility to allow consciousness to do this. As Marcus Aurelius said, “we make up our own reality.” What an entangeled web we weave.
Some study findings demonstrate that, while politically conservative and religious individuals find suicide more morally wrong than do secular liberals, even self-described non-religious liberals consider suicide to be morally wrong-and do so, on account of concerns about moral purity. "These results suggest that even if people explicitly deny the existence of religious phenomena, natural tendencies to at least implicitly believe in souls can underlie intuitive moral judgments," said Rottman.
Scientists as a whole are substantially different from the American public in how they view teaching "intelligent design" in public schools. Nearly all of the scientists -- religious and nonreligious alike -- have a negative impression of the theory of intelligent design. Yet Sixty-eight percent of scientists surveyed consider themselves spiritual to some degree. Scientists who view themselves as spiritual/religious are less likely to see religion and science in conflict. Overall, under some circumstances even the most religious of scientists were described in very positive terms by their nonreligious peers; this suggests that the integration of religion and science is not so distasteful to all scientists. More than 20 percent of atheist scientists are spiritual, according to new research from Rice University.
Dark matter is purely speculative based on observation that does not conform to commonly accepted standard models of universal gravity and mass. But then heaven and hell are also purely speculative yet could be seen as matter and anti-matter or dark and light matter? Whatever heaven and dark matter is, or whether it even exists at all, the conclusions reached about the universe that have been accepted previously cannot be reconciled with the amount of observable matter that can be detected. If dark matter is made up of weakly interactive massive particles, gravitons emanating from other dimensions, or there is some other explanation, no hypothesis can be verified without some form of 'material' evidence to support it.
If dark matter does consist of wimps or some other form of exotic particles, then where are they? Perhaps the same place as good and evil? A few psychologists think there is no such thing as good or bad, only human thinking makes it so and psychiatrists find the label of evil unhelpful in understanding the human condition. Detectors deep underground haven't found wimps so far, perhaps Hell is a little deeper? These particles should be so abundant that they can easily be found. Evidence seems to suggest that dark matter is concentrated on the edge of spiral galaxies, but then not all galaxies are spiral in nature, in fact most galaxies are elliptical.
But perhaps, even more intriguing is the question of dark energy. Just like heaven, its existence violates the first law of thermodynamics as, according to theory, it is responsible for the increasing rate of the expansion of space and the amount of dark energy is increasing from maybe souls and spirits of an ever increasing population? It has been hypothesised as the cosmological constant, which was originally formulated by Einstein but which he later rejected. Dark energy makes up more of the universe than dark matter and visible matter combined and is being 'created' from apparently nothing and emanating from nowhere; certainly in the beginning there was nothing.
If heaven or dark energy exists and our observations and conclusions about it are correct, there will be no 'Big Crunch' and the universe will keep on expanding forever or at least until the ‘Big Rip’, but then this contradicts the cyclic model based on the cosmological constant and the cyclical model of reincarnation.
So, dear Ralph, what is your answer: Is it or not? I read your review and I'd like to express my opinion that Standard Model is a big issue at every scientific discipline, it is a 'curse' from which we cannot escape even after a century (compare with the relevant S.M. in Economics: it is out there more than 100 years and after so many crushes that has rejected it). In Particle Physics there exists an indeterminacy in what we really observe at a collision experiment, but that's another story.
If I am pushed for my own instinctive answer, I’d say that consciousness (soul or spirit) seems to have some properties that are intrinsic to “how it all works”, in which case, instinctively for the moment in time, I’m going to go with, spirit being the bridge between observable matter and dark matter, maybe even the unifying theory between the really big and the quantum particle.
i'd also be happy with the spirit being some kind of super-string.
Thank you, Ralph, that you have interested in this unusual problem. Your medicine knowledge is of paramount importance here. I'll answer to you some later.
Dear Demetris,
Sorry for the long delay: it means, I am thinking much slower than you.
Now, regarding to your two earlier comments only:
Certainly, your vibrate conception is very interesting, but, as you feel, it is unclear still to yourself.
Uncertain suppositions, many if:
1. Light from material and non-material sources is different (a priori?)
2. Light from material and non-material sources is only the different states of the light (a priori?)
3. Some linear operator can transfer light from one state to another state (?)
4. Projection of light in the properties of material particles or whatever is material only (?)
5. The problem of Spirit is not necessarily answerable with material arguments and entities
(even if spirit is another state of light?)
As may be seen, many depend on a starting point. You select light. Panagiotis chooses wave spectrum, in which spirit is a discrete frequency.
Initial position determines in many respects the further ways of investigations.
If we admit a priory the wave nature of spirit, as our energy, and its wave field (biofield ?) is a higher level of the unified field (including dark energy), we have, at least, a methodology to study it. Of course, we are not einsteins, nevertheless, the problem should be suggested, as well as gauge-invariant interactions should be modeling. OK?
Dear Galina, your question is in the gray zone between Physics and MetaPhysics, so any answer is closer to the favorite 'taste' of every thinking person.
(1)My vibrate conception comes from looking around us and from the demand of finite amplitude for oscillations: remember, otherwise everything could have been destroyed due to an exponential explosion. This is the ground zero of matter: the demand of stability. This is not a constraint for immaterial beings: they cannot be destructed if they expand to a level of infinity (Do you remember the cardinality of real numbers, the hyperreal numbers, the ultrapower field extensions and other concepts that generalize the real line?). Probably their constraints are a cardinality of infinity, who knows? (surely not us!). So, in my opinion, we are tighted to our stability demand and thus the reason why all Physical Laws are merely a free or forced vibration, from the spring to the super string theories. So, yes light is different for immaterial beings.
(2) & (3) The need for a linear operator is our easiness. Why such a need for other more genius beings than us?
(4)Projection of light in material objects is the vibration we observe via Maxwell's equations or whatever we shall invent from here to future times.
(5)I think it could be touched if we knew the laws of projection? Do we know them?
As for the wave spectrum and nature, I repeat: it is a matter of stability: Soul has not such a need by definition (we agree I think in a non material definition, are we?)
It is not necessary to be Einsteins in order to think about: another big trap that prevents us even for dreaming is the main dogma of some scientists: we replaced religion dogma with science dogma (it's another interesting topic).
And finally, dear Galina, in order to summarise my view:
1)If you had asked me the same question ten years before I'd answer that "Soul is a quanta of a more general Field of Souls". Why that? because I was impressed with quantum theory then. Now, I am not, so my thought has changed.
2)I have the guess that you are excited with the concept of 'dark matter', so in spirit of 1) above you tend to believe that Soul has something to do with that concept.
3)If you ask me the same question ten years from now, my answer will be definitely different.
Thus, I end up that answers to those questions, since no laboratory experiment can be designed, are merely a kind of personal beliefs and not 'objective' answers.
The only 'hope' is to use proper Projection (but of what kind, a linear one?) and Induction from specific to the more general, in order to be able to 'smell' something close to the 'reality' (the immaterial reality I mean).
Thanks for the question!
By the laws of conservation of energy and matter, nothing dies. For example, when anyone dies, it is NOT the body that dies. Obviously, it is still there and remains forever in whatever form. So what 'dies'? Only electrical brain activity no longer detectable in the body has left. As they say, "Elvis has left the building."
To Ralph Samwell:
Dear Ralph, your comment knocked out me. You turned out to think on the problem for a long time and to form already your opinion. OK. Why are you angry, once more?
You are right: “Humans shape the environmental world; are we in turn shaping ourselves as we evolve into the man made environment?” However, everyone shape the world basing on his own level of knowledge. If we use some general notions of Dark matter, Dark energy, Standard model we may imagine quite unusual things and may accuse physicists of their fantasies. One may find a lot of very clever dictums of various famous persons and, all the more, students on the question, depending on their near scientific or religion positions.
Nevertheless, the present physics is a very specialized science, so that just physicists in some different fields cannot understand each other at professional level. Believe me, please, the above notions are unavoidable, forced consequences of all the peculiar regularities of the modern stage of physics, especially, theoretical physics. Certainly, there are many contradictions too, and their existence is fine, because just disagreements and our doubts are the strongest stimulus to advance.
Of course, these notions may be temporal and will disappear or will be changed by the more perfect conceptions at the further stage of knowledge. Remember, please, aether. All the early stages of the present physics, including Maxwell equations, as well as Lorentz transformations, were based on that idea, but just Lorentz transformations, used by Einstein, allowed him to reject aether and to create STR, based on the electromagnetic field.
Einstein believed in unified field. Perhaps, just this way should be selected to decision of our problem, should not be? I suppose that wave nature is a general feature of all the phenomena under our consideration.
I should say that in the questions suggested: Is spirit our energy? Is spirit dark energy? , the first one was only assumed as a constructive one, and the second question was added from the reclaim purpose, to attract attention, at least, at the first stage of consideration. Following our further comprehension of spirit, as well as dark energy, we may catch, perhaps, their general nature. Let us consider your curious question on dark energy: “Is it responsible for the increasing rate of the expansion of space and the amount of dark energy is increasing from maybe souls and spirits of an ever increasing population?” The real logic, indeed: we have a source of energy (spirits and souls of continually increasing population) and we see its effect (accelerated expansion of space). A quite little question remained: who did breathe spirit (energy ?) in our bodies? The lightest and unconditional answer: it is God, if we imply spirit. Meanwhile, we may look for our answer, if we imply energy. Such little difference in two words in the question (Is spirit our energy?) opens, perhaps, an approach to solving the most important our problem: ORIGIN OF LIFE. I agree, there are, maybe, many more “scientific” approaches, and they are elaborating, but none should be ignored.
One may hardly understand your initial position from your comment: whether all the phenomena exist in our conciseness only or they exist really. If you are on idealistic positions, you shut down your ways to solving the problem. But I believe that you are a genuine investigator. Help, please.
Basing upon your clinic experience tell, please, what may be legends only, and what are real information on behavior of patients near clinic death and after its overcoming. Do you believe in Oriental experiments? What is your opinion about extra sense field? Does biofield exist? What may be biofield from the point of view of neurophysiology? Thank you in advance for your answers. Galina
To Cj Nev & Panagiotis Stefanides:
You are right. We understand approximately the process of dying, but a starting point of life is enigma. The processes of metabolism are studied well enough. For instance, catalysis explains many peculiarities of the living matter, while the nature of the initial enzymes is unknown.
Galina,
Thank you.
I anticipate that, search for the tranfser of such energy [ as the question of living] at " first "and "last" breathing" transitional interactions, is of philosophica and physiological importance.
Panagiotis
I have transferred this comment from another thread at G. Ustinova's request. My apologies for it not being in context with the current exchange here or for raking over previously covered arguments:
I have difficulty with the concept of spirit as energy.
I am fine with spirit as a metaphor or allegory. I could list as I am sure most could, any number of anecdotes where the "spirit" of a group or individual achieved this or that wonderful outcome.
But this is not empirical evidence that quantitatively measurable energy of any kind has anything to do with what we commonly consider the word "spirit" to mean; which is based in a supernatural explanation of phenomena.
I often hear statements such as "the universe must be the result of some creative intelligence". When I probe this assumption I often find at the heart of it the idea that the quantitative energy which we know is bound up in the universe, is somehow equivalent to spirit and from there the idea that this energy somehow sustains a form of universal consciousness seems to emerge.
I have carefully considered this argument and others that posit a "dualist" concept of human existence and of reality itself. I have yet to be persuaded.
I am very glad to see you here. Thank you, Conrad.
Indeed, you are right; many aspects of your comment are already discussed, including eternal dualism. As one may suppose, we have sufficient developed intellect to construct logically inerrable version of any. However, the main our problem, namely, ORIGIN OF LIFE remains enigma. We may, as much as we want, be happy, discovering organic matter on Mars or anywhere in the Universe, but until we’ll know: what is the energy of the alive matter? We’ll never understand Life. Spirit (without anecdotic smiles) is the most suitable notion, which wave nature we may suspect. If we find some its properties we may study it as real substance.
I see our God, as very wise, kind and cheerful. He shows us new horizons and extends them continually further, calling our consciousness to perfection. Every one of us remembers that more we know more we understand that we know nothing. If we consider spirit as a real substance of wave nature we obtain a new probable approach to solution the problem of ORIGIN OF LIFE.
I must try to find a diffence in my intimation; maybe I should add some humor? Anyway, anger, is not my intension but I do like a challenge. Accusations of fantasies are a red herring, fantasy helps us think out of the box, help us to create the unthinkable, bizarre, irrational, and illogical and yet….imaginable…. and if we can imagine it; perhaps it can exist in some form or another? “When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” C. Doyle. Creation is everything but it comes with at least one warning; it’s not what we don’t know that harms us, it’s what we think to be true that is wrong, is what harms us.
What happens when a theory adopts the external trappings of science, but without the substance? This question answers… “Whether all phenomena only exists in our consciousness or they exist really.” For example, alchemy was a (somewhat) legitimate science in the times of Newton and Boyle, but it is now firmly pseudoscientific (movements in the opposite direction, from full-blown pseudoscience to genuine science, are notably rare).
Truth is like the prisoner who is freed from Plato’s cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners. So what happens when a theory adopts the external trappings of science, but without the substance?
In a Stone column (“The Enigma of Chinese Medicine”), pointed out that some traditional Chinese remedies (like drinking fresh turtle blood to alleviate cold symptoms) may in fact work, and therefore should not be dismissed as pseudoscience. But there is no way to test the existence of Qi and associated meridians, or to establish a viable research program based on those concepts, for the simple reason that talk of Qi and meridians only looks substantive, but it isn’t even in the ballpark of an empirically verifiable theory.
At one point some have compared the current inaccessibility of Qi energy to the previous (until last year) inaccessibility of the famous Higgs boson, a sub-atomic particle postulated by physicists to play a crucial role in literally holding the universe together (it provides mass to all other particles). But the analogy does not hold. The existence of the Higgs had been predicted on the basis of a very successful physical theory known as the Standard Model. This theory is not only exceedingly mathematically sophisticated, but it has been verified experimentally over and over again. S.M. might not be perfect but it’s all we have.
You are right of course Galina, those “notions” are unavoidable, nobody can know everything, and we need our experts, our specialists.
And you are very profound Galina; most fear doubt and seek to avoid it; if necessity is the mother of invention, then curiosity is the seed, doubt could be the dark energy? Or as Galina suggests a doubt is a temporal disruption, an event horizon, a reason to be curious?
And I am a major fan of wave nature being ubiquitous.
The information in a wave can be extracted and transformed back into its original form. Which might be what happens to information when its carrier enters, e.g., into the black hole.
And with the question, Who did breath in our spirit?
Because the soul/spirit is so elusive, perhaps there is a corolation between, where does the singularity come from? What was before the beginning? At what point does this so called spirit/soul become part of the anatoverse or embroverse?
But my favortirire question; is the embryo a particle accelerator, where out pops a Higgs-soul as the spark of life? This is not the same question as, what is the origin of life.
Certainly, cardiac tissue can now be grown from stem cells and from some unknown “predetermined point” the tissue will spontaneously, pulse and beat the rhythm of life.
Parthenocarpy and parthenogenesis [virgin birth], in biology, a form of reproduction in which the ovum develops into a new individual without fertilization.
If energy is the origin of the universe, then why not energy be the origin of life, therefore spirit is just energy and energy is spirit?
One can let one’s imagination go wild with possibilities and multiverses and like all good questions, they pose more questions than answers and can be seen as fanciful questions, as there is as yet know way to answer. I’m with Richard Feynman; “If you don’t understand Math, you don’t understand anything”. I await the next quantum theorist genius.
“Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.” Max Ehrmann, "Desiderata”
Galina; What exactly do you mean by "after its overcoming"?? (are you talking about 'near death experiences'??) I really am not sure what you are wanting to find out!? Any further clues?
May i add a manuscript i happen to compose that is still awaiting publication, as do not know where to send it for publication. It is titled ' Body, Mind and Soul- in perspective of Consciousness '. Appreciate commentators here to extend their help and also respond to it.
I am happy, Narendra, to see you here. Thank you. I suppose some time is required to perceive your original work appropriated for the current discussion.
To Ralph Samwell:
My dear Ralph, you have opened the whole depth of my ignorance. I did not know any Qi, although I suspected that Oriental experience would be aware of a lot of special knowledge on the question.
A simple glance into Wikipedia allowed me to see that riddles of spirit, of energy of all the living, as well as of energy of the Universe occupied the human minds over millenaries. It is clear that these questions arise again and again in different countries: Chinese, India, Japan, so that there were no any continuity of knowledge. Our God is very much interested in arise of the questions once more. Perhaps, you may feel yourself as a God celebrated one if these questions occupy your mind now ☺.
Be sure, I was not a fan of anything, as well as I have no any idea fixed. For instance, the very real question on peculiarities of Li-7 production in our Galaxy is in the range of my nearest interests now. Besides, I am sure that origin of life excites the imagination of every thoughtful people, including you, I believe.
The question is what we have on the subject at the present level of science. I suppose our approach must not decide all the questions at once, e.g. to compare addition of mass to particles with Higgs boson and to animate matter by breath of God, though it would be very attractive. Let us don’t be wandering by demonstrating our knowledge. Let us look for the real approach to the problem. Although we like very much fine logical speculative ways in the frames of our consciousness, we reject them for a real physical process.
Most likely, we are at the empirical stage of the problem. Our starting points: spirit is our energy (that assumed over millenaries), so that spirit is rather of the wave nature. Any real process is characterized with some features, properties or peculiarities. If we find them for spirit, it will testify to its reality. According to clinic near death experience, we may suppose that spirit has negative density (similar to dark energy). There is even a methodology (naïf rather) to determine that (see, please, the first comment of Sarvesh Singh on this thread (as I understand with wait of erroneous result)).
I am sure that in wide experience of official medicine, as well as in many kinds of Oriental experience, including contemporary extrasensory or acupuncture methods used, one may reveal some features similar to the wave field. I am even sure that they are known to some “pseudospecialists” using those methods. Simply, we don’t aware that, as well as I didn’t know Qi.
Our search must be purposeful. Of course, the co work of physicists and physicians is of paramount importance. Believe, please, that I stay at the real position and I see very well as it may be considered. There is no necessary to convince me. Let you help, better. You know much more in the field. The game is worth the candle.
The study, published online by JAMA Psychiatry, involved 103 adults at either high or low risk of depression, based on family history. The subjects were asked how highly they valued religion or spirituality. Brain MRIs showed thicker cortices in subjects who placed a high importance on religion or spirituality than those who did not. The relatively thicker cortex was found in precisely the same regions of the brain that had otherwise shown thinning in people at high risk for depression.
Although more research is necessary, the results suggest that spirituality or religion may protect against major depression by thickening the brain cortex and counteracting the cortical thinning that would normally occur with major depression. The study, published on Dec. 25, 2013, is the first published investigation on the neuro-correlates of the protective effect of spirituality and religion against depression.
"The new study links this extremely large protective benefit of spirituality or religion to previous studies which identified large expanses of cortical thinning in specific regions of the brain in adult offspring of families at high risk for major depression," Miller said.
Previous studies by Miller and the team published in the American Journal of Psychiatry (2012) showed a 90 percent decrease in major depression in adults who said they highly valued spirituality or religiosity and whose parents suffered from the disease. While regular attendance at church was not necessary, a strong personal importance placed on spirituality or religion was most protective against major depression in people who were at high familial risk.
Journal Reference:
1. Lisa Miller, Ravi Bansal, Priya Wickramaratne, Xuejun Hao, Craig E. Tenke, Myrna M. Weissman, Bradley S. Peterson. Neuroanatomical Correlates of Religiosity and Spirituality. JAMA Psychiatry, 2013; : 1 DOI: 10.1001/jamapsychiatry.2013.3067
To Narendra Nath:
Your comment and manuscript, Narendra, describe very clear the functions of each organ considered and their interactions, just in accordance with the contemporary ideas of the famous scientists worked and working in this field of paramount importance. As I could understand, you believe that perception of the consciousness depends very much on extent of development of various individuals. What do you think about your enlightenment at the granddaughter birth? Is it due to your super-sensitiveness? Or, may be, a bioinformatics wave field exists…
The event quoted is my perception that left me bewildered at the time and went on wondering about the same for years till my grand daughter started to prove my exclamation to be true through her remarkable human traits as she grew. Such isolated events happen rarely and it is not possible for me to analyse them as belonging to some superior interaction between our respective consciousness. Enlightenment here means a kind of aura that comes to one suddenly and may not repeat often. Thus, it can not be judged or analysed. However, one thing do notice that i have had good ideas which on pursuit produced results that were not expected originally. I feel somewhat convinced that extraordinary things do happen when one least expect them. But answers to such events remain mysterious. That is why i claimed that their existsa connection between body, mind and soul ( ?) which is beyond the human conception and provides an element of mystery to each of us!
To Ralph Samwell:
Apparently, I have more intricate the question being complicated itself. I don’t know, indeed, what I would like. Of course, I understand that bio- phys-chemical processes can ensure the evolution from molecules to consciousness. I know that interminable struggle exists between creationalists and evolutionalists. I know also that very good company of famous evolutionalists, including Newton, Bacon, Kepler, Pascal, Boyle, Faraday, Morse, Joule, Pasteur, Kelvin, Einstein, Wernher von Braun, … many contemporary scientists, have asserted that – with higher knowledge in their fields – they had to recognize as necessary of an unknown factor operation: God, the Greatest Power, the Utmost Mind, a Spirit in the nature laws, etc. In other words: “Science leads human to God” (Pasteur).
Staying at evolution positions of the contemporary stage of science could we try to elucidate, at least, the nature of spirit, assuming it as a substance? At the empiric stage of study we may raise some probable questions. What is a substance? If it is energy, what is kind of energy? If it is similar to general energy of Universe (e.g. dark energy), which common properties should be awaited? Because spirit is a feature of living matter, may we admit any differences in energies of alive and inanimate matter? In which form may it reveal most likely? For instance, in discrete spectrum. What kind of the wave spectrum may be the most responsible for consciousness? In other words, may we suppose that there is a structure of spirit and only the highest level of it is responsible for consciousness? However, the consciousness of different individuals is various too. On what does it depend: on quantity of spirit as a whole, or on different parts of its spectrum, or on especial wave compositions? Certainly, they were selected in the process of evolution of spirit (?)
As always, there are much more questions, than answers, if any. As I believe, every unintelligible phenomenon in clinic experience, in extrasensory experience, in Oriental experience and in accessible ancient literature sources should be studied. It is clear that it is an activity for community of kindred souls, including physicians and physicists.
Your last comment was very interesting. It demonstrates a voluntary character of methods used in psychiatry. Indeed, everyone, not only medics, knows that any engagement or pastime is well useful in counter-attracting psychotherapy of depression. In your case spirituality and religion is considered only. OK. What we have. “The cortical thinning would normally occur with major depression”. “Brain MRIs showed thicker cortices in subjects who placed a high importance on religion or spirituality (over history of a family) than those who did not”. Therefore, spirituality or religion may protect against major depression by thickening the brain cortex. The study, published on Dec. 25, 2013, is the first published investigation on the neuro-correlates of the protective effect of spirituality and religion against depression”. Doesn’t depression observe among religious subjects? How minimal time is necessary for thickening the brain cortex? (Several generation of family?) What is about thickening the brain cortex of other philosophers, musicians, artists, sportsmen, etc.? From the point of physicists view, that experiment is not accurate. Such kind of voluntary conclusions in psychiatry allows one to use it in repressive aims.
Language question. In Russian, spirituality (e.g. spirituality of consciousness) and religion (system of views) are notions of different level. Perhaps, it is more right to compare spiritism and religion, isn’t it?
Sorry if I am interrupting something. I'd like to add here the transition from material to immaterial world that have been achieved by fasting and praying friars of Aghion Oros ('Holy Mountain'): they could communicate even with the stones of the mountain and of course with animals. As for the human beings, they can simply recognize the exact part of the body which is affected by illness (Remark: Not all monks, but just few of them). So, everything is well combined in a unity.
Very interesting, Demetris, thank you.
When was it? Nowadays? Regarding communications with mountains and animals, it may be hallucinations conditioned by fasting, but in recognizing ill parts of body just a biofield may be operated. It should be remembered only that some ill parts of body are frequently characterized by higher temperature.
Demetris comment is covered in a mss i am attaching on this website too. Yes, degree of awareness/ consciousness only varies between inanimate and animate objects
It would be very interesting to illustrate it by some examples, Narendra.
What i have written in the said manuscript is based on my own experiences and it does not seem appropriate to detail such things out as comments on this website. I have quoted a few personal experiences in the said mss and some other ones like ' Interface of Science and Spirituality, What Physics Can and Can't DO / Relenavce of Consciousness in Sciences, etc. If you desire and send your e' mail Id i can send such mss's to you as Attachemts....
Dear Galina,there exist many examples, those I mentioned were of last 2 decades. I have not explored all potential people who have those abilities but it is not so far from me and it is not only for Aghion Oros monks. I have heard for monks with those abilities in small monasteries too. As I have argued in order to be above the material world, you need fasting and a kind of 'get away' from it, is necessary. So, people from Greece, India or whatever, if they follow this simple rule they are able to communicate with the unity.
Such things are simple and tough simultaneously. One needs to give wholesome attachment to the mind that acts as interface between body and soul/spirit.
Dear Narendra, I have sent my e-mail to your mailbox. I am waiting the promised papers. Thank you in advance.
Galina
Dear Demetris,
your immediate proximity to a rich “data base” on our question stunned me. Certainly, you must decide yourself how use it. The best way is – if it is interesting to you – it would be your hobby. I know, however, how little free time we have. Perhaps, it is possible to find a volunteer among monks to compile all the most interesting cases, especially if some unusual preliminary circumstances are known after which somebody has acquired uncommon seeing. Certainly, any psychic deviations must be excluded.
Because we suppose a wave nature of spirit (call it as our internal wave field) and try to understand its interaction with an external wave informative field, we may restrict our interest by the most determined cases, when the spirit directly contacts with the external field. It is observed during near clinic death, when spirit/soul temporarily leaves body, but after life-saving it, enriched by the interaction with external informative field, return to the body. The most interesting cases (by my opinion) are the interactions with extremely strong fields, e.g. of lightnings. Remember, please, Bulgarian Vanga, and many other similar cases.
It is clear there is no simple superposition of fields. Perhaps your vibration conception of interactions is the most adequate. One may speculate very much about the information ability of the universe field, containing, may be, awareness of past, as well as of future. However, if spirit enriched by that information, returns to the body, its owner acquires uncommon seeing.
Thank you, Demetris, for “Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain (On Spiritual Life)”.
Their practice of fasting and praying is similar approximately to the Oriental experience approach to immaterial entities and cognition of unforeknowable: meditation (Nothing) and reading Bible (the 23rd Psalm of David) – see, please, the comments of Sidney Clouston on the discussion thread of my another question in RG: “On varying speed of flow of time over our life” (Sidney is Master of Orient Arts, Ninja and wise man on the whole).
I bow my head before God and his creature – Homo Sapiens. I believe also that God glories himself in Human achievements, and God likes any attempts of Human to perceive his power.
'Humans have been created by me in MY own Image', as per ancient Indian scriptures attribute to GOD. But its large part remains unaffected by all this physical creation. It is a negligible part of Himself.
I would like to pay attention that human can, apparently, activate his internal energy, his spirit. Indeed, there are many legends and stories as men, firstly, Jesus, could walk on the water, as well as on the earth. There are many stories of hovering of the most experienced extrasenses above the earth. There are a lot of cases of telekinesis. In all the examples one and the same property of our internal energy, our spirit, reveals: just its negative density, which is apparently, similar to the negative density of the dark energy. It testifies that we have dealings with rather antigravitation nature of both the wave fields.
Dear G, i personally does not prefer analogy with dark energy but would like to suggest the power of Consciousness and interaction between individual and cosmic parts of it. It plays wonderful part in science as well as spirituality only if one feels interested and practice meditation or emptying mind of biases developed . Freedom of spirit lies at the crux of this matter!
Kindly go through the many mss's i have posted to you sometime back.
Dear Narendra,
At last I have read all your mss’s with pleasure. The first one “WHAT PHYSICS CAN & CAN’T DO?” is a very good overview of the statement and evolution of the contemporary physics, which is very useful for students and beginners. The second one “INCONSTANCY OF THE PHYSICAL CONSTANTS AND STRENGTHS OF FORCE FIELDS” presents your conception on evolution of science, especially physics, including your original fresh ideas on the topics of the Inconstancy of the Physical constants, possible order in chaos, modeling artificial intelligence using computers, etc.
Especially interesting for me are, surely, the latest ones: “SCIENCE INTERFACE WITH SPIRITUALITY” and “BODY, MIND & SOUL, IN PERSPECTIVE WITH CONSCIOUSNESS”, describing the role of consciousness among the brain, the mind and the soul. As individual consciousness interacts with cosmic consciousness, the potential towards the totality knowledge opens.
There is very interesting your meditation and yoga experience and their influence not only on tension reduction and anxiety curb (which could be expected) but also on capacity to generate and assimilate intuitive and inspirational thought processes, which became sharpen and broad-based.
I like very much your conclusion:
“To end, let us pause with a child-like composition: Silence is part of noise but not vice-versa. Order is part of chaos but not vice-versa. Consciousness is much more than mass & energy, latter being small manifestations of the former that seems all-powerful. Such is the beauty of the mysterious. Let us all swim happily together in such a sea of love and bliss!”
Thank you, Narendra. You are very wise and kind human.
Galina, thanks much for your detailed comments. I feel encouraged much as I work mostly alone at home being past 80 years and having hardly interaction with colleagues one has during formal service , as I had as University Professor. In India mostly we retire from service at 60 years. I will be happy if you can recommend some of mss for publication In suitable journals in Europe/Russia. I attach my background of career just for your personal attention.
Dear Narendra,
I believe you will be youth in your soul still many, many years. I wish you strong health and clear mind to be happy in our beautiful world.
Appreciate your good wishes. Hope my physical health backs me to continue work towards good of humanity. It hurts me to note violence both in words and deeds. Only goodwill and positive thinking can help solve multiplying world problems!
Starting from the answer of Suresh above, I want to share with you an old question of me:
"Imagine a Marathon racer who is weighted 60 kg and he/she transfers his/her body for a distance of 42195 m. Then the runner burns about 2623 calories or 10979.3 Jouls:
http://www.runnersworld.com/tools/calories-burned-calculator
A typical day somebody needs about 2250 calories:
http://www.self.com/calculatorsprograms/calculators/calorieneeds/result?age=30&weightPounds=132&activityLevel=3&submit=
Where comes the extra energy neede for a marathon racer?"
Dear Suresh,
Thank you very much for very interesting and useful comment.
If we understand the operating mechanism of activation of our internal energy (life force field), we may manage it. There are several ways: to affect energy itself, its properties, or to act on the way of it operating, i.e. to organism. Indeed, extrasense and Oriental experience show that special training allows activating spirit and its antigravitation property. On the other hand, physical training and medicines provide conserving spirit in living organisms. However, we don’t know mechanism of influence of all the medicines. There are a lot of medicines that impact on consciousness, stimulating or suppressing it. Is it impact on spirit if consciousness is the highest stage of spirit?
Regarding dark energy, is spirit the highest level of it? Return, please, to one of my comment above:
Staying at evolution positions of the contemporary stage of science could we try to elucidate, at least, the nature of spirit, assuming it as a substance? At the empiric stage of study we may raise some probable questions. What is a substance? If it is energy, what is kind of energy? If it is similar to general energy of Universe (e.g. dark energy), which common properties should be awaited? Because spirit is a feature of living matter, may we admit any differences in energies of alive and inanimate matter? In which form may it reveal most likely? For instance, in discrete spectrum. What kind of the wave spectrum may be the most responsible for consciousness? In other words, may we suppose that there is a structure of spirit and only the highest level of it is responsible for consciousness? However, the consciousness of different individuals is various too. On what does it depend: on quantity of spirit as a whole, or on different parts of its spectrum, or on especial wave compositions? Certainly, they were selected in the process of evolution of spirit (?)
You read my thoughts, Demetris.
In each extraordinary sport achievement we may observe example of activation of the internal energy, of our spirit. In this connection, and following the comment above, the question arises about the role of dopes. What is the real operation of them: on organism, on spirit, on consciousness? The answer on the question could be crucial in the problem.
I’m not exactly sure why this thought didn’t occur to me but it came to me as a culmination of another RG thread Galina also started, on the “varying speed perceptions over time”…this is a post on nature of spirit, once I combined the two, it came to me the realisation or at least the thought…Our “Spirit” doesn’t age; it is timeless! Although I have a lot of adult cognition in the way, perhaps deep down, my spirit hasn’t changed, it is still full of life, and joy and thirst for curiosity and growth and just being, just existing in it’s energetic state. My body is ageing but at lot slower varying speed of my life compared to the distance from that spirit. The closer I am to that spirit, the slower time appears to be, the further away I am from that spirit, the faster I age and more importantly the choice of distance is mine. And so like spirit what other singular thing also has infinite time with infinite energy, and gravity?
Ralph, i agree. Kindly find time to go through an attached mss composed but not yet published!
Striking inference, Ralph ! Thank you.
How could we forget that soul is amrita?
Is it one of the brilliant thoughts which break upon you just along for the ride? It is fine!
Dear Ralph,
I need your knowledge again.
1. If we assume that consciousness is a higher level of spirit, how could we explain that some invented medicines influence on consciousness, stimulating or – quite the contrary – suppressing it?
2. Read, please, also some my comments above, concerning possibility of activation of spirit, e.g.
“I would like to pay attention that human can, apparently, activate his internal energy, his spirit. Indeed, there are many legends and stories as men, firstly, Jesus, could walk on the water, as well as on the earth. There are many stories of hovering of the most experienced extrasenses above the earth. There are a lot of cases of telekinesis. In all the examples one and the same property of our internal energy, our spirit, reveals: just its negative density, which is apparently, similar to the negative density of the dark energy. It testifies that we have dealings with rather antigravitation nature of both the wave fields”.
Do you think that they are fictions only? If no, what could be a mechanism of activation? Is it will-power?
Thank you in advance.
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