The limits of the term "Sky" or "Heaven" is neither clear in scientific world, nor in the religious. Moon in middle does not imply geographic middle, but dangling in space without any support as explained in other verses.

Holy Writings quire rarely refer just to physical realities. There is no point in it. Manifestations of God, the Prophets and Messengers, came with a purpose to promote spiritual understanding, the physical research is left to science.

The terms "heavens," "stars," "Moon" and "Sun" have different meaning in the Scripture. You gave a good example:

• 71:15 “Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another”.

This means seven religions, which have the most significance in the world today (and had at the time of Muhammad, with the reference to the nearest future Revelation). These are:

1 Adam (or something else very ancient, the religion of Sabeans)

2 Abraham

3 Moses

4 Jesus (forth heaven, referred to in the Qu'ran, Ruh'u'llah, i.e. the Spirit of God, as Jesus is often referred to, ascended to the Fourth Heaven)

5 Muhammad

6 The Bab

7 Baha'u'llah

Revelation of Baha'u'llah is often referred to as "The Seventh Heaven," because it will bring the cardinal change in our civilization. There is a popular saying, "I was so happy, I was like on the seventh heaven." So here were are now, at the seventh heaven, 200 years after Baha'u'llah.

• 37:6 “We have indeed decked the lowest heaven with an adornment, the stars.”

The lowest heaven is the lowest level of religious institutions. I.e., these are the priests, mullas, Pope, Patriarch, Ayatollah, etc. They give a little light to the people around them, and therefore referred to as "stars." Jesus has predicted that they are going to fall, and they have fallen indeed: in the today world, they don't have a lot of power anymore. It's really impossible to interpret the "falling of the stars" in a literal way. Maybe like a meteor shower, but then it has a little practical sense. Although it is said that a meteor shower did occur in 19th century, as a symbol of priests falling from grace:

(The below quote is from Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 2, p. 422)

The Star-fall of 1866[1]

[1 For its significance see p. 270]

The spectacular shower of meteors in the early hours of the morning of 14 November 1866 was observed all over Europe. It was an extraordinary event exciting comment from professional astronomers and laymen alike...

• 71:15 “See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another,”

Of course they are "one above the other, each next religion brings more knowledge than the previous one.

• 71:16 “And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) lamp?”

"Sun" and "Moon" here probably refer to the Divine Revelation and its laws. Bahá’u’lláh says (sorry, its a bit longer quote, but I think it explains everything):

These are the melodies, sung by Jesus, Son of Mary, in accents of majestic power in the Ridvan of the Gospel, revealing those signs that must needs herald the advent of the Manifestation after Him. In the first Gospel according to Matthew it is recorded: And when they asked Jesus concerning the signs of His coming, He said unto them: "Immediately after the oppression [* — The Greek word used (Thlipsis) has two meanings: pressure and oppression.] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the earth shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet."[1] Rendered into the Persian tongue,[2] the purport of these words is as follows: When the oppression and afflictions that are to befall mankind will have come to pass, then shall the sun be withheld from shining, the moon from giving light, the stars of heaven shall fall upon the earth, and the pillars of the earth shall quake. At that time, the signs of the Son of man shall appear in heaven, that is, the promised Beauty and Substance of life shall, when these signs have appeared, step forth out of the realm of the invisible into the visible world. And He saith: at that time, all the peoples and kindreds that dwell on earth shall bewail and lament, and they shall see that divine Beauty coming from heaven, riding upon the clouds with power, grandeur, and magnificence, sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Similarly, in the three other Gospels, according to Luke, Mark, and John, the same statements are recorded...

[1 Matthew 24:29-31.]

[2 The passage is quoted by Baha'u'llah in Arabic and interpreted in Persian.]

Inasmuch as the Christian divines have failed to apprehend the meaning of these words, and did not recognize their object and purpose, and have clung to the literal interpretation of the words of Jesus, they therefore became deprived of the streaming grace of the Muhammadan Revelation and its showering bounties. The ignorant among the Christian community, following the example of the leaders of their faith, were likewise prevented from beholding the beauty of the King of glory, inasmuch as those signs which were to accompany the dawn of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation did not actually come to pass. Thus, ages have passed and centuries rolled away, and that most pure Spirit hath repaired unto the retreats of its ancient sovereignty. Once more hath the eternal Spirit breathed into the mystic trumpet, and caused the dead to speed out of their sepulchres of heedlessness and error unto the realm of guidance and grace. And yet, that expectant community still crieth out: When shall these things be? When shall the promised One, the object of our expectation, be made manifest, that we may arise for the triumph of His Cause, that we may sacrifice our substance for His sake, that we may offer up our lives in His path? In like manner, have such false imaginings caused other communities to stray from the Kawthar of the infinite mercy of Providence, and to be busied with their own idle thoughts.

Beside this passage, there is yet another verse in the Gospel wherein He saith: "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away."[1] Thus it is that the adherents of Jesus maintained that the law of the Gospel shall never be annulled, and that whensoever the promised Beauty is made manifest and all the signs are revealed, He must needs re-affirm and establish the law proclaimed in the Gospel, so that there may remain in the world no faith but His faith. This is their fundamental belief. And their conviction is such that were a person to be made manifest with all the promised signs and to promulgate that which is contrary to the letter of the law of the Gospel, they must assuredly renounce him, refuse to submit to his law, declare him an infidel, and laugh him to scorn. This is proved by that which came to pass when the sun of the Muhammadan Revelation was revealed. Had they sought with a humble mind from the Manifestations of God in every Dispensation the true meaning of these words revealed in the sacred books -- words the misapprehension of which hath caused men to be deprived of the recognition of the Sadratu'l-Muntaha, the ultimate Purpose -- they surely would have been guided to the light of the Sun of Truth, and would have discovered the mysteries of divine knowledge and wisdom.

[1 Luke 21:33.]

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 24)

Deduction of hidden meanings opposite to the literal meanings has been the religion of some. There may be some deeper meanings in the divine words, but not the opposite. Plus most are explained from other divine verses such as sahi hadith rather than pure human perceptions which may or may not be correct. Agreed upon belief has been the first sky is the one we see with our eye. The rest have not been told are beyond our imagination. Even if we take the hypothesis of 7 skies as stated, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) should be the last of the skies as being the last prophet and revelation.

Rehan,

The prophet of Islam may be 'a sky'?

O_O

If that is a metaphor, what can I *not* take to be a metaphor in such a work?

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

أخي الحبيب Karl Pfeifer

أرجو أن تكون بأفضل حال

أجيب على سؤالكم بالنقاط الآتية؛

1- هذه الإشكالية التي حصلت عندكم في فهم بعض الأمور العلمية في آيات القرآن الكريم هي بسبب الترجمة غير الصحيحة لآيات القرآن الكريم . ومن أحب أن يفهم الإسلام والقرآن الكريم على وجهه الصحيح لابد أن يفهمه باللغة العربية. لأن اللغة العربية تحتوي على وسائل عديدة في وصف المعاني وبيانها لا توجد في أية لغة أخرى

2- لا يوجد في القرآن ولا حديث النبي محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم ما يشير إلى أن القمر موجود في وسط السماء

3- قول الله تعالى :((وجعل القمر فيهن نورا وجعل الشمس سراجا)) معناه أن الشمس والقمر في السماء والقمر لا ينير بنفسه وإنما يعكس ضوء الشمس ، والشمس هي مصدر للنور .

4- قول الله تعالى ((الذي خلق سبع سموات طباقا ما ترى في خلق الرحمن من تفاوت...)) معناه أنك لا ترى في خلق الله من أخطاء فالله خلق جميع السموات بدقة متناهية وبانتظام دقيق جدا خالية من أي خطأ. أما تفسير كلمة طباقا في

اللغة العربية فهي تحمل عدة معاني لا يمكننا أن نقول بأنها تدل على سماء فوق الأخرى

وجوابي للسيد المحترم

James Garry

رسول الله محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم رجل من البشر ليس عالم فضاء ولد يتيما وكان أحسن الناس في أخلاقه ، وأوحى له الله بدين الرحمة والمحبة والإسلام. وأيده بأدلة وبراهين دامغة لا شك فيها بأنه رسول من رب العالمين.

وما ورد في دين الإسلام من أمور تتحدث عن العلوم لم يكن فيها أي خطأ ونحن نعلم بأنه أرسل قبل 1400 عام ولم تكن له أية معرفة بقوانين العلم الحديث.

ودين الإسلام يحث على العلم ويمدح العلماء ، لأن الذي يتخصص بالعلوم يدرك بأن الله موجود وأن هذا الكون لم يوجد من تلقاء نفسه ، والأنظمة الدقيقة التي تنظم الحياة على الأرض وتنظم حركتها في الكون لم توجد نفسها بنفسها بل أوجدها الله تعالى.

ولا معنى لوجود الإنسان على الأرض ليأكل ويشرب ويتزوج ويموت فقط.

وأنبه كل من يرى بأن هناك خطأ في دين الإسلام أو القرآن بأن لا يأخذ الإسلام ولا القرآن من الكتب المترجمة فالترجمة لا تستوعب المعاني الإلهية ،

ولكم جميعا تحياتي واحترامي

أ.د حسن عبدالجليل عبدالرحيم علي العبادلة

>The Messenger of Allah Muhammad peace be upon him a human being is not a space scientist...

Indeed.

Nor, I suggest, was he 'a sky' as has been suggested by Mr Butt.

>the precise systems that regulate life on Earth and regulate its movement in the >universe did not exist itself but was created by God.

This is not proven to be true. The motion of the Earth is well-described by the laws of mechanics.

Of course, one may ask how those laws came to be, and on that, I cannot speak.

But because I cannot tell you why physics and mathematics *works*, that is not the same as saying that a god must be involved.

Dear James Gary

Thank you for your good response

I hope you read this book

God's Guide to the Expanding Universe, 40 American Scientists Announce Their Positive Views of Religion

for me the concept is similar to Buddhism and Catholicism as Alighieri Dante described in Paradiso, with its orders of angels, etc. Heaven is where you're happy, and not everyone is happy where you think they should be. Consequently, it isn't about position, it's about happiness, that is, not where you think people should be, but where they're happy. And so there are different heavenly regions or abodes corresponding to what makes people of different perspectives happiest.

Another religious "problem" submitted to a supposedly scholarly discussion forum?

Seriously?

Witold Witakowski AGREE

Witold Witakowski & Rehan Butt RE: Another religious "problem" submitted to a supposedly scholarly discussion forum?

You have a very narrow conception of what constitutes the scholarly. Exegesis, hermeneutics, and conceptual analysis are part of scholarly activity. To seek an explanation or a rationale for a religious passage is not the same as expressing or promoting faith. Indeed, it can be an interesting and challenging conceptual puzzle even for atheists. You should be objecting to the tenor of some of the answers given instead of to the question itself.

Karl Pfeifer . Religious scriptures have its own exegesis and hermeneutics, may or may not follow established scholarly paradigm. Just expressing a different dimension of discussion may or may not be acceptable to literary world. That's how the boundaries are stretched entering into gray areas of research.

Allah doasn't said : “And made the moon a light in their midst”, He said : "And made the moon -therein- a light" [71 : 16]

https://quran.com/71

Any time ancient writers commented on the physical universe they were in danger of being shown to be ignorant on such matters. They obviously wrote about the physical universe in terms that were common and accepted by the people they were addressing.

But they were not fools or idiots.

There are many passages in the Koran that we would dismiss (talking ants) or in the Bible (talking donkeys) and even situations that make God himself seem foolish if taken literally.

For example, the Biblical account of Adam & Eve.

Supposedly God himself spoke with the couple daily and made everything in the garden available to them except for the fruit of one tree.

Imagine THE POWERFUL IMPACT OF WALKING AND TALKING WITH GOD!

But, we might think it was not impressive at all after reading the story, since a while later a chatty snake came along and got the couple to disobey God's only restriction.

So, a talking snake is more persuasive than the creator of the universe!

Clearly that is not the point of the story.

Science is an investigation of the external and objective world and it's instruments are the physical senses of touch, smell and sight, etc. It's method is the cause-and-effect world of FACTS and a commitment to this scientific method leads one inexorably to determinism.

Religion is an investigation of the internal and subjective world and its instruments are the moral senses (see Dual Morality) It's method is the internal world of TRUTHS and feelings that seem to bubble up from within us uncaused. A commitment to this religious and subjective world leads one inexorably to the idea of free-will.

Reality for humans is lived at the point where the subjective meets the objective, where truths-meet-facts. We appear to have free-will while not being able to understand the universe in any way other than the deterministic.

Hi everyone. Hope you are all doing well. After almost 8 years research and hard work, I have recently written a book called "The Dawn of Scientific Age with the Sun of Quran and Nahjolbalaghe", which is appended to this post for your reading.

The book not only proves that the contents of those two books are all "physical" not random "metaphysics", but it answers important and influencing questions currently faced with physics and astronomy using those two valuable books. It shows that currently, physics and astronomy are struggling with questions that there is "no way" but to adhere to the Quran and Nahjolbalaghe in order to answer them. This is because, Quran and Nahjolbalaghe are the "manual" of the universe (since the one who created the whole universe is the same one who presented Quran and Nahjolbalaghe to us) where our 4d brane world is only a "tiny" part of it with its physical laws determined in other universes.

Ali Moharami

I know a little about atoms.

I do not understand how there can be the equal amount of information inside an atom as there is outside of it.

An atom is very very small - and its constituent parts are few in number.

(quarks, gluons, photons, and electrons).

Can you explain your statement to me?

Nowaday, The most dangerous enemied of quran are those who try to defend it. They follow their imagination and try to match the very deep concepts in the quran and Nahjolbalaghe to the ceiling of their own thought and this is the biggest crime against Islam.

Seven heavens are real, physical and exist. 5 have the physics of 5 string theories (note that scientists know there are 5 versions of consistent string theories, but they do not know why?!). One has the physics of supefludity. The last one most probably had the physics of F theory. These are explained in more detail in the book in my previous post.

Hello Ali Moharami

I am sure that your quest to seek connections between the microcosm and the macrocosm is well-intentioned.

But it is a quest that is doomed to failure. We know much about both the cosmos and about the behaviour of subatomic particles: and as we're on a site that strives to be a repository of insight for *research*, I say:

a) " MATER IS COMPACTED ENERGY"

No.

This is a common misunderstanding of one of Einstein's most-abused equations. Just because I can describe the energy content of a photon as being equivalent to a mass, does mean that all matter *is* energy.

If matter (sic) is 'compacted' energy, then where does charge come from?

How can a particle have non-integer spin if it is made from integer spin bosons?

b) " all universe is made of atom. "

No.

There are many many more photons than atoms.

And 10^11 neutrinos stream through each square cm of you, day and night.

They are not atoms.

And if we look at objects that appear to be influenced by gravity, whatever dark matter is, it is more common than baryonic matter: probably.

c) " Atoms in different materials are not originally different "

Yes they are.

An atom of copper is very different from one of helium.

This is basic chemistry. The chemical nature of a substance is dictated by its electronic structure.

d) " For example an atom on the surface of the Sun is as like as an atom in one of hair of you "

No.

There are no atoms on the 'surface' (say, the photosphere) of the Sun - it's too hot for electrons to be bound stably to protons.

And a random atom from the (thinning) hair on my head will be equally likely to be hydrogen (not ionized) as it is to be carbon. Very different.

3) " and also all data of all atoms in the universe. So: "

How can that be true?

That is akin to saying that a one character password is as complex as a 10 character password.

This is nonsensical.

Are you familiar with Boltzmann's definition of entropy?

Again, I recognize your goal to find deeper truths, but what you have written is, in anything other than the most loosely poetic sense, wrong.

And that's okay. We cannot progress without error to correct our thinking.