If a prophet is a "historian of the future", this would mean that the futur is already "pre-written" or "pre-determined"; this would mean further, in my opinion, that there exists a kind of symmetry between "past facts" and something what we should have to call "futur facts".
Generally, at least in human sciences, this conception of time is considered as a mythical or mythological one ...
@Peter
The modern Physiscs establishes the symmetry between PAST and FUTURE. The Quantum Mechanics experimets demonstrate that future affects the past.
The main objection is that different PROPHETS predict the Future differently. But so are HISTORIANS, describing the PAST. Here is an Example: A FRENCH Historian describes BONOPARTE as the Great National Leader. But a RUSSIAN Historian marks him as a Petty LOSER. And both of them describe the same person, the same chain of events and at the same period of TIME.
Opposite to that, a Russian historian credits IVAN the TERRIBLE as the founder of modern RUSSIA. But the FRENCH Historian sees in him a MAD BLOOD SUCKER.
Dear Alexander.
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I believe in another kind of historian of the future, I believe more in science fiction writers than prophets. The only restriction in the science fiction writers is the environment that they live. When these are in countries that there is an evolution in greater pace than in the past and there is optimism about the future, the works are more optimistic and remote capture expectations of what we can expect technological developments.
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On the other hand, countries that begin to suffer political gridlock and the path is not clear which should be traveled, or worse, to go the future there should be a rupture with the past, this fiction is pessimistic and dark.
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I would say that future historians are not prophets, are simply people who can project the full potential we envisage both science and the projection for social changes in 50 or 100 years.
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In recent years we are seeing a pessimistic science fiction, no prospects, simply because more advanced countries are achieving a stalemate that will require a change not only in view of their own countries, but the role of other countries that were considered peripheral in history humanity.
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See, for example, participation in ResearchGATE own vision of a new future. Here we see the vigorous participation of countries that retake positions two to three centuries has occupied in science, as India, but we see dozens of other institutions in countries that 50 years ago seemed not exist for science, emerging with young researchers and some seniors in the future occupy prominent positions in science, and science and technology is the key to participation as a protagonist and not coadjuvant in the history of humanity.
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50 years ago when someone excelled in the sciences the only chance it had was to migrate to more developed countries, to "help" in technological development, and occupying positions usually much smaller than their capacity relevance.
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Doing a bit the role of historian of the future, say the prophets are not religious mystics, but people who are coming out of this new environment can project what will happen in the next century.
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@Rogerio
I fully agree with you, Determination of PROPHET should not be restricted with religious figures. So, a good Science Fiction Writer is related to PROPHETS as well, and so are some of PHYLOSOPHERS.
@Vitaly
I can refer to 2 Prophecies, turned to be Historical Facts.
1. ILIYA the PROFET predicted in 7th Century B.C., that Jews will lose their STATE for their dis-obidience to G-D. Then it will take them 2,000 years of punishment before they will re-establish the State. That is an example of long foreseing.
2. V.M. MOLOTOV in his appeal to Soviet People in a Radio Speach, JUNE 22, 1941, told the following:
"OUR CAUSE IS JUST,
ENEMIE WILL BE CRASHED,
VICTORY WILL BE OURS".
It took only 4 years for this PROPHICY to become the HISTORY.
That is a very good example, Vitaly. We sure learn who is a PROPHET after the predicted event really happened. But some Biblical PROPHETS were recognised as being them during their live. I name a few: NOAH, MOSES, JESUS, MUHAMMAD.
Dear Alexander,
I find extremely exciting the new insights coming from theoretical physics, quantum physics, etc. Unfortunately as a "humanist," (researchers in human sciences), I don't have (always) the necessary technical background to understand in detail all implications of these researches (but in, any case, I am a rather motivated reader of them).
Concerning your examples of Napoleon and Ivan the Terrible - they indeed refer to a highly discussed question in historigraphical research: the interpretation of history and historical data, the question of what is a "historical fact" and, more generally, historiography (the reconstruction, understanding, writing of ... history) - what kind of activity is this: a scientific one?, a narrative one ?, ...
The fact that one group of historians thinks that Ivan was an outstanding personality in Russian history, and another group thinks that he was a mad man - this divergence could be understood as an interpretative divergence based on a different epistemic (cultural, scientific, moral, ...) backgrounds. However, there has been a person called Ivan who, through his live and achievements, forms the support of the one or the other interpretation. Indeed, if you have a closer look to this example - the support itself changes: it is adapted to the interpretations. But take World War 2 - even if there are people who consider that this has not been a world war, nobody could deny that there has been a war between 39 and 45.
What I want to stress here is the following: if we consider that there is symmetry beteen the (historical) past and the (historical) futur, we should behave somehow in a similar way as the two groups of historians juging (past) Ivan or the (past) fact that the war between 39 and 45 has been or has not been a world war: a first group of "historians of the futur" should say: well, the war between 2025 and 2036 is a third world war; and the 2nd group would say, "no we don't agree - it's "only" a local war".
In any case, what remains is the fact that there will be in this (futur) time span a war ... And this affirmation belongs to a "mythical" or "mythological" understanding of history, or again of a pre-determined conception of futur: futur entities or events already exists ("really" exists) but they "come into historical existence" only after a certain time span from now on ...
Another question is to try to "predict" (or better, to produce) more or less probable scenarios of the futur based on our knowledge of the past. But if I have understood you correctly, this was not your concern ?!? Peter
Dear Rogerio, Alexander,
Your example, Rogerio, of the SF genre is very interesting. It is not limited to SF but can also be found elsewhere in fiction, especially in novels. Take, for instance, the novels of Balzac at the beginning of the 19th cventury who not only stage the society of this time but also possible evolutions of this society (for instance, the extreme importance of the capital and of science, the emergence of the new profession of journalism, etc.) All these pieces have become progressively a cultural reference for our modern societies. Another very interesting example is Robert Musil, an Austrian novelist of the beginning of the 20th century, who in his unfinished novel "The Man without Qualities" "predicts", so to speak, not only the First World War but also the organisation of modern society.
This means, that fiction is a kind of tool for simulating more or less probable scenarios of "possible worlds" based on given knowledge, believes and also desires. Take for instance, the first SF films of Meliès (1902): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbv03c_georges-melies-le-voyage-dans-la-lu_shortfilms. They are nice, very nice: they stage a world and a time in which man travels to the moon. But the ontological distance between the "Melies world" and ours is incommensurable.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbv03c_georges-melies-le-voyage-dans-la-lu_shortfilms
@Peter
Sure, WW2 started in 1939, even Russian Historians don't dispute the fact. Generally speaking, WW1 and WW2 are similar, as the same countries were enemies or allies.
But the same countries are no longer enemies to one another. As to the future war, this would be rather war of Civilizations and Russia, while being Eurasian State, belongs to European Civilization. Radical Islamism is the self-proclaimed enemy of European Civilization, so, the War started on 9/11, 2001. US invaded Afganistan and Iraq as an after shock, but are incapable to come with a political victory. The only strong party in Radical Islamism is Iran. In the case West and Russia will try to apiese the potential agressor as they did in the past with Hitler, the result will be similar.
Iran, having nukes, will talk from position of power, keeping his own Citizens and those abroad as Hostages. So, the time period 2025 - 2036 looks reasonable to me for the more active phase of War. So, we do have, as you put it, "PRE - DETERMINED Conditions for future war. Thanks for discussion, Peter. Alex.
Dear Vitaly, I think the words in this question are intended to be taken in their literal meaning, which rules out analogy (an knowledge of history) as a tool to visualize the future. I think, and correct me if I am wrong, Alexander, this question refers to a prophet as a person that knows the future through a sort of revelation and not only by intuition, grounded on his/her knowledge of the past.
To my knowledge, the faculty of doing history---or any other science, for that matter---is as common as common sense: because the statements of a historian, most of the statements of a historian, or some statements of a historian, can be verified more or less immediately, in principle, and determined to be true or false whilst descriptions in future tense are only probable, except for those that are true by definition and those that have been confirmed in so many cases like the statement "I will die some day." that they appear to us to be axiomatic.
A prophet would have a perception of the future beyond that. I think this describes the essential difference between a historian and a prophet. Is it possible to have the faculty of prophecy? I don't know, however, I think there is an essential difference and my answer would be: no, a prophet should not be considered as a historian of the future.
Sure, Oscar, PROPHET don't have solid facts, he can't, as fact in future did not happened yet. So, a PROPHET tries to extrapolate the past and present into the future.
Historian operates with known facts, he just tries to connect them, put in order, acts like an accountant. A successful PROPHET is not an avareged HISTORIAN, he is a THEORETITIAN of HYSTORY, looking into the future. In this sence, EINSTEIN was a PROPHET, as he predicted unknown, predicted the future of Physics.
Thank you for contributing into this discussion. Alex
@Vitaly, they are Prophets, sure, but they were active Historians of future, as they affected future, foreseing events after their death.
@Vitaliy, only those prophets, who predicted events in future correctly. They can be credited as Historians of Future. The rest of them are Petty Prophets, there were a lot of them in ancient Israel. In the middle Age Russia they were known as YURODIVYE. I doubt the English has equivalent word for them.
At the time of madness of coming year 2,000, Jouralists of leading newspapers voted for 100 best speaches of all time. I was proud to find the MOLOTOV speach in TOP 10
When I read some of these speaches, all of them had elements of PROPHECY.
Molotov's is a good speech. I am not sure it was prophetic, because there are justified claims that in 1945 Germany was defeated, yes, but not the enemy.
I think that if historians operate with known facts and try to connect them, prophets ‘in the religious concept’ are God massagers, and are very different from common humans, with something plus. So some future predicted by them is some God knowledge to us. But smart common human could by intelligent thinking predict future facts on the basis of history of facts, usual customs and present practice. This person is only an intelligent human not a prophet and not a historian ‘as historians could have different and may be biased interpretation of facts as the example given by @Alexander on 2 Bonaparte histories’.
@Vitaly and other friends on this side. In the sorry case of GERMANY winning WW2, the DEVIL would be the PROPHET. HITLER was that DEVIL.
The war against Russia was started by HITHER's order, over opinion of his leading Generals. Generals argued that Russia is big, and STALIN is TOUGH. But Hitler ignored all these arguments.
Now I tell the story, that Vitaly probably knows, but other folks don't. When Hitlerites were beaten in the Battle of Moscow, STALIN started to relax, and in January 1942 asked his Secretary to bring the FUTURE TELLER into his office. The name of FUTURE TELLER was WOLF MESSING, a Polish Jew, who escaped from Hitler and lived in Moscow. Any one can find data on him on GOOGLE, as Messing is considered as the strongest MEDIUM of modern time.
So, Stalin asked Messing: How long this war will last ? Messing told Stalin, that he consistently sees Soviet Tanks in Berlin, but is not sure about time. Stalin asked him to concentrate and to get his vision. So, Messing covered his face by his hands, and fell in trance. In about 10 minutes he regained ability to speak, told STALIN that he sees the spring time, MAY. What year, Comrade Messing ? - Stalin asked. Messing fell into the trance again, then came with the answer: 1945. STALIN was displeased:
"You tell me about 3.5 years of this bloody war and sufferings for our people?". I can not predict the future, Comrade Stalin, you asked me about my vision, and that is what I see. Well, Comrade Messing, that is fare, no one is God, thanks for sharing your vision, was Stalin's responce.
Shortly after the VICTORY Day, Stalin invited Messing again. He told him: "You, Wolf Grigor'evich (Russian Patronimic) are amazing man. Your native Poland is free, but it would be sad to lose such a wise man". Messing assured Stalin, that he is a Soviet Citizen, and have no intent to go to Poland, short of visiting his mother grave.
STALIN granted a luxury appartment in Moscow to Messing for his services.
I would rate WOLF MESSING, whos performance in reading the thoughts I witnessed in about 1960, as a HISTORIAN of FUTURE.
Thank you all for reading my long post.
@Vitaly, I was a spectator of Wolf Messing Performance in Moscow. Stalin personolly patronised him, but after his death in 1953, Messing was allowed only few performances in Moscow per year. So, he mostly traveled. Things changed in 1962, when Khruschev invited him for advise how to get out of Cuban Crisis. Messing advised him just as a wise man, without any need to see the future.
So, Messing was in fawor again, until his natural death in 1974.
Thre is SERIAL about him in Russia. I watched all parts, but we have in Tel Aviv all major Russian TV Channels. In the case you did not see them, go to YANDEX.RU,
then MESSING. All Serial is free on Internet, you can see and enjoy by yourself.
When Arabs keep killing one another, the DEVIL is the PROPHET.
Kogda Yeltzin ograbil narod, otdav vse kuchke lakeev, eto tozhe ot D'YAVOLA !
Da Vy i sami znaete. Vse kto mog uexat', uexali.
Well, prophet in the sense of religion means something like preacher who speaks for God in a foretelling manner.
Its etymology comes from pro- meaning "before" and the root of phanai meaning "to speak".
So without any social or religious connotation prophet means foreteller, soothsayer.
Again rigorously historian has a similar meaning, since the word history is ultimately coming from histor "wise man, judge," from root *weid- "to know," literally "to see".
Then strictu sensu, yes prophets = historians of the future
Interesting Thread with lots of possible diverse thoughts...
So everyone can be historians, but they can be in two groups; Active and Passive historians ...But all historians cannot be prophets...All prophets can be a part of active historians and therefore we can rate prophets as active historians of the future, as Alexander said. In my opinion, a devil cannot be a prophet. How a devil can be a messenger of God?. Everybody has a mixed character (evil + good). Each character exposes depending upon the situations. Thus we have evil and good historians...
Ehhhhhhhh ... Alexander!
I guess in a sleepless night fell into your head this very intriguing question... hahaha!!!
In my head circulates a number of different thoughts, that match the topic, but not at all associated with the prophets of the Bible or of my "hobby profession" - history.
For example, if the meteorologists, forecasting with almost 100% accuracy of weather (even long term) are prophets (historians of the future), or not?
Or, if Erwin Schroedinger can be regarded as a prophet (historian of the future), or not? His wave equation has announced a year before the "birth" of Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, without which (I guess) at these time it was difficult to understand why electron - with strictly quantified energy - can be virtually in any distance from the atomic nucleus. Did Schroedinger intuitively sensed that exactly a year after his wave equation, certainly Heisenberg will discovered the principle of helping to explain this anomaly?
Andrzey, folks, here, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Department of Physics, run a Quantum experiment, claim that future affects the PAST. And no contradictions with
either Schrodinger or Heisenberg. So, these 2 great Scientists for me are Prophets and Historians of Future.
Dear Alexander.
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The greatest difficulty to predict the future is to be living the present and judge the past by prejudices (prejudice as a pre-judgments) that leads a single vision of the future.
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Thirty years ago the fictions looked like the future conduct of the USSR and USA fight and everything revolved around it. With the absence of an enemy to show their muscles, the governments of Western countries elected a radical Islam, that both as a Christian and all other religions radicalism has always existed. It is perhaps an attempt to repeat the Crusades, the result of a misinterpretation of these wars both culturally and historically.
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The desire for a radical Islam to serve as a future opponent, or an actor in a shock of civilizations, is only for those who sell weapons and only forget something, it is necessary that have opponents disposed to follow the paper and will not be wishes some tribal structures distant from the people of his own country, which govern the behavior of Islam. I think designing something from it leads nowhere, because as the saying goes, history does not repeat itself, the first time is a tragedy and a farce in the second.
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Alexander, you are talking about prophets, not strategists short term, the real "prophets" exceed the current policy, as well as much of what is happening today is not a product of the will of the people, but the convenience of alliances that will dissolve the same way we composed as per the convenience of all involved.
The history of WW1 and WW2 only have in common with one another and the existence of an industrialized Germany eager to grow and found them all occupied spaces, the rest, including the alliances was totally different. Remember in WW1 Italy and Japan were allies, Turkey (formerly Ottoman Empire) who remained neutral in WW2 were actors first order in WW1.
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I continue in my view that the true "prophets" of modern times are the good writers of science fiction, since his books or movies are not the product of demands from governments, parties or corporate groups.
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Perhaps the words of Wolf Messing is the solution of the "prophecies:
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"My ability to see the future may seem to contradict the materialist understanding of the world. But there is not a particle of the unknowable or supernatural about precognition ... The Future is shaped from the past and the present. There are patterns of connections between them ... ".
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Seems simple, but to establish the connections of the future with the actual present is difficult, and these connections can not be confused with desires and aspirations.
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Great Post, ROGERIO, thanks, COMORADO ! And I can see that you cite WOLF MESSING. Sure, he was the most unusual man.
Lijo ! Enjoy discussion, we have top thinkers here, I learn a lot from them.
A prophet is not someone that speaks about the future but someone that speaks inspired by God, in fact the word prophet comes from the union of pro- (that means 'for' in the sense 'inspired by' or 'doing the work of') and phet (from the greek verb phemi' that means 'to speak').
Now, God, living out of the time in an aeternal reality has a perception of the fact very similar chains of events can happen at different times in human history, thus the prophecies are realized many times and refer to 'invariants' of human history caused by very similar behaviors of mankind, prophets, inspired by God, give 'warnings' to the people that in general do not follow them. Thus, more than 'historians of the future' prophets are, in my opinion, scientists of the hystory, given scientific theories have the same meaning (theory = theos (God) + orao = 'to see) a theory allows to have the 'Look of God' on Nature, a prophet does the same with human affairs.
The recurrence of nature is analogue to the recurrence of history, this is why prophecies in the Bible can be easily recognized in nowadays world....as for me, as a Roman Catholic (and thus believing in the basic free will of humans) I'm convinced humans can in any moment 'change their way' and escape prophecies...
Dear Alexander.
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I see you're a top scientist with an enviable bibliography, but I see that behind an innocent and generic question, start putting some political overtones referring to Islam and the Arabs. As I am not in these two groups, but I live in a country where tolerance is the law and norm, I would ask that you leave in the name of science and secular coexistence in this community some, but occasional insinuations.
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If you want to make a discussion by "political science" the current conflicts, as history, causes, consequences and appropriate notation to accompany you, but we must make clear both the questions and positions.
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With this Gate preserve this only as a platform for science.
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Are you talking with me ????? I never said a word about Arabs and Islam, I simply gave my opinion about the meaning of the wod prophets from my high school backgound in Ancient Greek and I simply said I'm a Roman Catholic that is not yet a crime, so I do not think you are talking about me (as least so I hope) in any case this is all I had to say about the topics....
@Rogeiro, where did you see the politics or Islam, mentioned by me ? The only politicians I named are Hitler, Stalin and Eltzin, all of them were agnostics and from the past.
PLEASE, REFER TO MY POST WHERE ISLAM or any other religion is mentioned ! May be I forgot.
Ortega y Gasset said that a historian is a prophet in reverse. Of course he was exaggerating, because a prophet relies on some numinous source-- an oracle, divinity--, as Alessandro suggests, and tells the future concretely and intuitively, whereas a historian as we understand him reinterprets the past with discursive reason and expresses his findings conceptually.
Dear Alexander.
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If it was an error of interpretation on my part, I apologize, and if so it is best if there are no aggressors, no battered people.
@Nelson, all statements like that are exaggerations of some degree, but tis is the way to stress IDEA. And I like determination by Ortega y Gasset. Let me suggest slightly different scenario; A PROPHET correctly predicted some event in the FUTURE. People, who live in the time of the event are amused with the strength of the PROPHECY. But later, say 100 years after event took place, the same PROPHET is just a Historian, who described the past from even more distant past. So, he is both, the PROPHET and the HISTORIAN.
@Alexander
Can you give me a reference to that experiment you mention where future affects the past?
Well, Vitaly, those who have brains know real Russian History, and brainless people don't care. But sure, perception of a historian is affected by the time and place he lives or lived.
That was clear to JOSEPHUS, the ancient Historian, who lived 2,000 years ago and described Judean War and destruction of Jerusalem by Romans. He stressed, that while the War is already described, this was done by people who express opinion of one side of conflict only. But he, Josephus, served both sides, so, he can do the job free of emotions. And, indeed, only his book survived, others were forgotten.
@Rogeiro, please, look my RG Site, INFO, you can see WHOM I claim as my PAST ADVISOR. He was a real GIANT, and the GREATEST INTERNATIONALIST of all times.
@Oscar, I can't do that from the top of my mind, but I will dig this information for you.
Alexander, your modification of Ortega's statement is surely true! Thanks.
@Rogerio, sorry, I checked my posts. I indeed mentioned Radical Islam in one of them.
I am 75 years old, perfectly remember Physical Chemistry and Chemical Engineering, but can completely forget what I posted 1 day earlier, if the post is not related to my profession.
Radical Islam is not a Religion and was mentioned without association with Arabs or traditional Muslims. I also answered to a collegue on this site, who discussed the timing and source of next WAR.
Radical Islam is a political movement, hostile to people of their own country and to other Nations. Radical Islam is prohibited in the Countries, ruled by traditional Muslims, such as Egypt, Jordan, KSA, Emirates, etc. And radical Islam as in Iran today is not new in History.
I can mention the Radical Judaic sect, ZEALOTS, which took power in Israel 2,000 years sgo. They started to kill Jews, who led peaceful live in harmony with Romans, who administered the Province of Judea, as they called it. As a results, Zealots lost the revolt to Romans, who, as a punishment , destroyed Jerusalem.
Then I can mentioned 100 years war between Catholics and Ptotestants in Europe.
Both sides were headed by Radical Christians, which practised Politics, not the Religion. And as a result of 100 years of senseless war, Europe was 50 % depopulated.
All these sorry events of mis-use of Religions by Radicals are separated by 2,000 years time period. I rate all these Radicals as Facsist, for their neglect to human life
and to Holy Books, they grossly mis-interpret.
As we discuss PROPHETS on this Site, I would claim that the DEVIL was the Prophet of these tragic events. Please, consieder this post as a History traking, not as a Political dispute. We are not in a Political Science here.
I think that Human history was punctuated by many ego and power-ship stupid struggles for controlling economical funds ‘financial, commercial or natural’. So when funds were not shared within a certain balance and stability any equilibrium of forces collapsed, and gave birth to contest, competition and struggle. Human history told us how strategies were used facing or moving to resistance, some of the strategies were religious basis (out of any prophecy), example crusades, colonialism ‘under religious based strategy’, or Jews oppose in past centuries, and nowadays radical Islam made in laboratories. So to ovoid human collapse, history told us how contain extremes trough a fair regulation, and out of any ego-centrism, and any theory of people superior to others. Basically and with the near most pacification of the world, the scientific knowledge and the medias, this millenarian must be smart out of any struggle scheme, for the happiness of all out of any need of medium or prophets, only the need of human intelligence, to move toward progress. Yes there are big nations and small nations, all must operate into a cooperation scheme for a quiet and smart life.
Dear Alexander.
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For me it is simple, religious radicalism or is the product of ignorance of people who cannot even interpret the religious texts or is the product of governments who seek unite their people around a simple and axiomatic message.
If we look at history radicalism is always the product of people who are on the margins of society more developed or in countries that had the need to centralize power.
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Talking of what I criticize more appropriately, because as I am religious family with links to Catholicism, I see two clear this extreme intolerance in Catholicism examples, the Crusades and the Inquisition. The first attempted to through this movement, strengthen monarchies of the Middle Ages and the second tried to create a barrier against modern Europe that was emerging and developed by Protestant movements, ie, can be justified where the temporal power of these movements.
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When the States or the people do not feel Endangered, the religiousradicalism, for its anachronism and its own contradictions, is not progressing as much as governments or religious radicals try.
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The solution against these movements is real hope and progress of peoples. It is no use trying to fight these radicals as if they were a political movement or a regular government, the only solution is to isolate these groups by eliminating the "cultural melting pot" that feeds them, poverty, ignorance and a term that may not find the correct translation, the sense of belonging to the international community.
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One example of the viability of peaceful coexistence among peoples and religions. In my very close family, I have relatives with different beliefs, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Islamists and Historical Materialists, all living without the least conflict (that is Brazil!).
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The only problem there is that when I make a dinner and have to take care of restrictions on food, it's a real mess, because the restrictions are not the same. I'm only afraid of entry into the family of a Vegetarian because there will be almost impossible to organize a menu!
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I put this simply to show why I am sensitive to any criticism of any religion, because it will be critical as insulting or a brother or a nephew or a son.
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@Fairous, at nowdays Priphets are hard to find, but corrupted politicians are plenty. I can go on, but that belongs to Politics, while most posts on this site discuss Prophets as Historins of Future.
I would rate KARL MARX as a PROPHET. His Prophecy is only 150 years old, new by a Historical standards. But after his works, Capitalism is considered as a curse, so, even apologets of Capitalism are Hiding behind LIBERAL DEMOCRACY term, invented by them.
Dear @Alexander, I think that great thinkers are clever and talented people, they could project future context following a good analysis of past and present data and facts, and could build some degree of truth. May be their ideas are relevant for a period but not for all times as their knowledge is bonded. Not as prophets with God message which is eternal and adapted to different ages. Anyway political corruption and corruption of anything is the devil of nowadays world. how to stop it and prevent it, is the great challenge.
Planning future is not prophecy, projecting future ideas ‘even if tools are not available -in science fiction-‘is not prophecy, having sufficient tools to explore nature and predicting future environmental behavior for instance is not prophecy. Thus planning and predicting future is only a smart human organization scheme without need to any prophet or historian or medium. Past Prophets were God massagers of holy Books. No future prophet was projected since, people who want to have knowledge and try to understand God messages, have Holy Books to read as alphabetization is worldwide.
So why not forecasting this beautiful view of 5 billions of human brains, 5 billions of ideas, of new knowledge, of new findings, of new or improved theories, of new industries, of new towns, of new agriculture, of new health, of new tools, new space and oceans explorations….etc… what a beautiful dream, no need to any superiority by money or force, only smart organization schemes ruled by smart people, not only people who have much money… hope this future world could be built by our smart youngest people, as present and future word couldn’t be ruled by 1945 earlier schemes.
Returning to the subject prophets, historians think it gives people bad prophets, because to understand the past have to tow the logic that guided him.
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Marx may have outdone himself in relation to others, as he sought to find the links between the past present and future, but missed the Marx a more dynamic view of the relationship between capital and labor that emerged only later.
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Marx, and therefore the vast majority of Marxist writers who proceeded, were trapped in the capital relationships work of the nineteenth century, which for Marx was something normal due to the time that he lived, but for historians of this is a huge failure.
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Even think that current historians, Marxist or not, they are prophets of the past, because the vast majority is tied to mechanistic interpretations of the evolution of history. We must see that both Marxist historians as liberals are all connected to the same sources, Adam Smith and David Ricardo. I think that while the historical and ideological discussion is stuck to these authors, historians will be increasingly linked to the past and even the present.
@ Andrzej. Do not forget that German physicists of the early twentieth century had their theories based on strong philosophical reasonings. Physical and philosophy were linked and there was no development of a design without regard to the other. Maybe we lost it in the last decades!
Alexander, would it be possible to envision in terms of prophecy and history Joseph's interpretation of Pharaoh's dream in Genesis 40, 25 of the seven years of prosperity and the seven years of famine? By prophesying, Joseph made history, because Pharaoh believed his prophecy, followed his suggestion to store grain for the seven years of hunger to come, and appointed Joseph a high official in Egypt with great powers. Egypt thereby attained hegemony among nations in biblical times. Here, the prophet actually became the history-maker. I am reminded of L'eonid Massine, the great Russian ballet dancer who choreographed the dances he himself performed.
@Nelson, same Joseph's story in Quran too. Holy books knowledge is same. May be evolved through ages from Thora, Bible and Quran with may be new knowledge from one book to the other following epochs, human tools, education and understanding at each age and place..
Fairouz, the repetition of the Joseph story in the Torah and the Quran reaffirms the historical element of Joseph's prophecy. If the Quran repeats what the Torah has already said, then the Joseph story is more believable, more "historical."
@Nelson, you provided the great example of Prophecy and History making. QURAN confirms OLD TESTAMENT, so, I believe the story should be found in Chapter 1 of QURAN as well. But you can check yourself, typing QURAN into GOOGLE search, you get for free full text in English. O.K. I can see that Fairouz confirmed that the story is in there.
Alexander, this question-and-answer series has radically changed my own conception of history, broadening it. Thank you!
Nelson, this question tortured me for years, no one of my friends was interested to discuss. So, couple of days ago the idea came to me to address RG. And I learned that the problem formulation is shared by others as well. But your example with Josephus is very convinsing and to the point. Thank you for sharing this example.
What amazes me about the Joseph example is the prophet who announces his vision of the future and actually affects that vision with his actions. Perhaps the other biblical prophets did the same. I am thinking of Samuel (especially in relation to Saul). What do you think? The prophecy itself is like a musical score, which the active prophet performs through his subsequent actions.
Dear Dr. Alexander J. Babchin, The basic difference between a historian and a prophet is that a historian talks about data (may be authentic to the historian's level best) but no concluded vision is provided by the historian. In case of a Prophet (for a particular faith) the data have been provided is not questionable. With belief we have to accept with 100% authenticity. Also, a Prophet provided us a vision for the future.
Anyway sir, I like your question: that let us to think about the messages and the search for the future vision for humanity.
Any real artist is a prophet in the sense he keeps (and gives to us even after centuries) a more vivid sense of the reality and the moral of his times (think of Michelangelo and Caravaggio, we know much more and much more in depth of Renaissance era reality and spirit looking at their pictures than reading tons of historians books).
Dear Alexander and dear Nelson,
Joseph story is in chapter 12 of Quran. The repetition of Joseph story in the 3 Holy Books , means that they emanate from the same source which is the same God. Joseph was a prophet without a holy book message, and his prophecies of future emanated from God's inspiration to him. Joseph was not a medium as the story does not say that he enters into trance to have some knowledge, but he was a skilled and clever person with much morality, as he was able as a prime minister from ancient Egypt to rule its economic policy from famine to a great success.
There are many stories and histories in Holy books, so may be history (following the stories’ repetition) is the only mean by which human could bypass some ignorance and could take lessons for their lifetime important decisions?
I agree with Fairouz completely. Neither of Holy Books indicated that Joseph was contacted by G-D. So, Joseph's vision and Prophecy is his own.
Well, Misha, Messing has written the book in 1967, which GOSLIT rejected to publish, but is available now. Then, his assistant, a woman, is still alive and practicing some of his tricks, ZASLUZHENNAYA ARTISTKA ROSSII.
But I trust STALIN himself, who patronised Messing. Not having use of him, this Polish Refugee Jew would be chopping woods at -50 C, instead of being granted luxury appartment and being free DAVAT' PREDSTAVLENIYA po vsemu SOYUZU, kak ARTIST ORIGINAL'NOGO ZHANRA.
Vse, chto on delal, protivorechilo dogmaticheskomu MATERIALIZMU. No STALIN byl ubezhden, chto MESSING - iskluchenie, i obmana net.
Ya, Misha, ne zabyl, chto ty obeschal PAV dlya ispytaniy.
Privet, Alexander
Vitaly, Stalin was VOZD', the status no TSAR of Russia ever had.
@ Nelson: VOZD = white wolf (literal) means leader? Russian origin..;0
Looks like you guys are consuming some of those mushroom not very advisable.
Fellows, VOZD' in Russian is a GRAND LEADER, having a PROPHETIC Status. For example, byblical NOAH and MOSES fit this word.
Misha, you answered by yourself, I cite you: "If he Achieved his Goal with the People, then we can say that He was a Prophet" ! Exellent.
Lijo, thanks for your support !
Rogerio,
I'm sorry, that I delayed a few days with the answer to your attention:
"Andrzej. Do not forget That German Physicists of the early twentieth century had Their theories based on strong philosophical reasonings. Physical and philosophy were linked and there was no development of a design without regard to the other. Maybe we lost it in the last decades ".
I fully agree with you. However, as a consequence of this conformity, I stating, that in my opinion, indeed, take place the bonding and highlighting the physical and philosophical elements in the works of German scientists, the early twentieth century. For this reason, I must to do one step further and say that the existence of this symbiosis allows to include of Schrödinger, Heisenberg and several other prominent German scholars of the early twentieth century, to the group of historians of the future, but - at the same time - to the prophets.
There was a High School Physics Teacher, Eduard Tsiolkovsky, Kaluga, Russia, at the beginning of 20 Centure. He predicted that during 20 Century mankind starts to use Jet Propulsion Principle for:
1. Launching first satellite, orbiting the earth
2. Launshing the space ship with a man, orbiting the earth
3. Launching the automatic space station, orbiting the moon, and taking the photo of the other side of moon.
4. Automatic station, launching on moon
5. Manned space ship, landing on moon and returning back.
6. Authomatic station, landing on the planet MARS.
As all these events happened in reality, I would claim Tsiolkovsky as the Prophet and the Historian of Future for Cosmonauthcs.
Come on, Maria, OLD TRSTAMENT has only one real PROPHET, MOSES. Others are claiming by HOHAMIM !
Maria, Tanah has 2 parts, Tora and the rest. Please, look at the very end of Torah. There is clearly stated that "No Prophet like MOSES will ever appear in Israel again, who was contacted by G-D". The rest of Old Testament is largely History, written by simple Jews, not religion. If anyone like Samuel claimed that he was contacted by G-D, that is just the statement of a simple Jew. He definetely contradicts with TORAH. Thus, his claim is HERETICAL.
JESUS had understanding of Torah in depth. So, he never claimed to be a PROPHET, claiming to be Son of G-D instead. That removes contradictions.
And QURANIC Prophet, contacted by G-D, presents no contradiction with Torah, as he was not a Jew.
But, like many people on this site, I claim that Prophets can be considered outside Religions. A person can be an AGNOSTIC, but still correctly predict the future like Prophet. That is only the matter of terminology.
Thanks, Muhammad, for voting my answer up. And I agree with Maria, Elijah is the PROFET, he predicted future. But claims that he was contacted by G-D are written by simple Jews, the HERETICS, as their claim contradicts with TORAH. ILIJAH made his predictions on his own.
Muslims claim that Prophet Muhammad was and is the LAST MESSENGER, G-D contacted no one after Prophet Muhammad. Thus, Muslims obey QURAN, their HOLY BOOK.
But majority of Judaic Sects today are petty HERETICS. Especially are Hassidic Jews. Each of their Rabbis becomes a Prophet and, as they claim, was contacted by G-D. All these claims are no more, than Great Violation of TORA.
So, a simple Jew like me prefers not to practice religion at all, instead of going along with Heretics.
These HERETICS live in self-imposed Hettos in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, so, I am happy not to see them at all.
But all this is a RELIGION, we are off our initial discussion on the HISTORY of FUTURE Predictions.
Dear Alexander J. Babchin, I am gone through your posts and realized that you have authority on religion. Keeping that in mind I put my answer in this way as below.
Messengers of 'GOD' transmitted the "exact" messages they received from the 'GOD'. In messages 'GOD' revealed about some historical facts to let the "IBNE ADAM" to understand the fact. And, also included in the messages quite frequently 'THIS IS THE MESSAGE .. WHO BELIEVES'
So, what so ever is our faith but one thing is very clear cut 'that there are 'MESSAGES' not predictions.
Dear Afaq Ahmad, I am no authority on religion, I just a reader of Wise Holy Books.
And sure, G-D transmitted his messages in the past to believers. Each Holy Book indicate only ONE messanger within each of Abrahamic Religions.
But then, when some congregation claims that their Rabbi has supernatural power to contact G-D directly, they are HERETICS to me. I don't have enough knowlege to talk for Christians and/or Muslims, so, I don't know whether or not a Priest or a Mullah may have that said capability.
Alexander is extremely interesting your interpretation, and the little I know of the Bible (Old and New Testament, as Christians define it), it seems to me that one of the main concerns of the text is the warning against false prophets.
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Regarding acceptance of new prophets and people who communicate directly with GD (good notation!) The Church is extremely reticent, only losing this reticence mainly for political reasons. An example of political manipulation of clairvoyance are called Secrets of Fatima (Portugal) where children "seers" were used politically awaiting dessea secrets ".
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