The man was created with free will. Is the freedom the same thing? I believe it is not the same thing. Could you explain with few words the differences?
Mariano:
I find your point of view very interesting. I think the free will is God-given but freedom can be manipulated by Governments and other significant bodies who put a limit to the amount of freedom that you have.
Best regards,
Debra
Freedom is to be in the truth and practice it (without sin), but free will is liberty which could be affected by sins in practice. This is my viewpoint.
Mariano:
I find your point of view very interesting. I think the free will is God-given but freedom can be manipulated by Governments and other significant bodies who put a limit to the amount of freedom that you have.
Best regards,
Debra
One can consider free will as "the ability to act at one's own discretion". This insight was the basis for Descartes's defense of free will and of the mind's ability to control the body. I mean this book: Descartes: An Intellectual Biography By: Stephen Gaukroger Oxford University Press / 1995 /
Without a strong and real power stems from the free will of God to our free will can not get the most important thing practiced in the presence it is our freedom
We have degrees of freedom that will limit what we can actually experience or do. In a social environment, these degrees of freedom are further restricted to promote coexistence between members and to minimize the intrusions of one individual’s “freedom” into another’s. While we tend to pride ourselves in creating free societies, in truth, it isn’t freedom as much as order and predictability that we desire. It would seem that the average individual’s concept of freedom is simply the desire to be “left alone” by potentially intrusive outside forces (i.e. government, business, etc.). In other words, the desire to be left alone focuses on those entities that are in the most powerful positions to further limit the degrees of freedom one can have.
Going a step farther, it would seem that one of the biggest obstacles to freedom is our own inhibitions. Which brings us to the second issue; free will.
Free will is subject to the same “degrees of freedom” constraint that our physical freedom has, however, this is a more complex subject because we have the apparent capability of deciding on any abstraction that we can conceive of. Our brains wrestle with concepts like infinity as if they possessed a physical reality. Herein lies the first difficulty, which is the degree to which our imagination is limited in granting the full range of “free” thought.
http://www.science20.com/gerhard_adam/blog/freedom_and_free_will
Dear Mariano.
This is interesting. Thank you for your question .
Both things can be oposite.
To keep it simple, for instance. A prisoner has lost his freedom, but not his free-will to find a way out of prison, and get his freedom back.
Freedom of speech is a whole different thing, because it belongs to those who have not lost their free will.
Free will is a natural condition of the person. Freedom is a political issue.
I think free will is an utopy and freedom is what we really can realize.
Agree with Victoria. Freedom is man made but free is god made. Free means without any hesitation, tension and expectation, you can do what you want..
Free will is a mental state versus freedom is a physical state?
Yes, Marcel, I think so. That reminds me some antiutopic books like Farenheit 451, 1984 or some Aldous Huxely books.
Freedom is a degree of possibility to do things in a political domain, it is the ability of a person to move, express ideas in written or oral, to participate in political affairs and demonstrations without fear of persecution by a government that respects rights of citizens in equal terms.
Free will on the other hand is uninhibited natural capacity of an individual to think, imagine and do or not to do things solely based on his/her conscience regardless of the consequences either from society, government or nature.
FREE WILL: The natural sentiment of personal liberty unrestrained by the rule of law; hence, "liberty of the jungle." If allowed to prosper, free will results in two conditions: (i) in time of peace, the slave make slaves of the poor, and (ii) in time of war, the strong makes slave of the weak. (Rousseau's Social Contract).
FREEDOM: Rights of a person endowed by natural law; these include: (i) freedom of movement, (ii) freedom of expression, (iii) freedom of security of person and property, and (iv) freedom to be free from fear. (Roosevelt's 4 Freedoms).
Free will is about natural liberty. Freedom is about natural rights. Liberty needs to be constrained by positive law. Natural rights need to be recognized by positive law. The unrestrained liberty and unrecognized freedom lead to tyranny in human society.
Freedom is restrained by people- culture- practices etc., while Free-will is individualistic and controlled by conscience.
Freedom and Free-will are elastic in nature.
In my humble opinion, free will is the person's ability to make choices and freedom is when the person selects a choice (made by free will) and then acts on it. There are regimes which limit freedom to a very low degree & such regimes work on convincing individuals to narrow their free will to become "more realistic !".
A wise intellectual knows that the dose of freedom is not that big in various countries "East or West" under various justifications. In reality, the "elite" think that it serves their continuous interests "control & management" to keep the public ignorant about how much freedom they deserve.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
"Whoever will be free must make himself free. Freedom is no fairy gift to fall into a man's lap. What is freedom? To have the will to be responsible for one's self."
---- Max Stirner
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
Free will is the choices you make as an individual on a daily basis of what to do, Freedom is the overall ability to be allowed to do that, not being governed by rules or punishments that gives you the ability to have that free will
Freedom can be defined as not confined or obstructed while free will is ability given to man to decide on what is wrong and what is good
Dear friends
Pope Leo XIII has a very beautiful and complete encyclical (LIBERTAS)
about this matter:
https://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas.html
I hope this help.
Guillermo
The concept of freedom and the concept of free will is an illusion. Any individual as the system is part of a larger system (the society, the human civilisation, Life on Earth, the Universe...).
The concept of freedom is closely linked with the concept of freedom in the mechanics. We are dependent on the society of their own kind. The freedom of each of us in system of their own kind is limited by the freedom of others. A qualitative change in individual freedom of one possible with a similar change in the freedom of each. If your freedom is destroying the system that supports you (society, etc.), it eventually will limit your freedom. So the structure of the system settle the balance.
Free will is a little different phenomenon. It associated with decision-making (yes/no). Every decision which you make is actually due to the existing conditions (circumstances) and an element of spontaneity (also circumstance). The correct solution in circumstances depends on conditions and does not depend on you (like any true solution of mathematical task), there is no any freedom of choice. Your incorrect spontaneous decision will be settled by outer system later with elimination of differences that caused by deviation of your state from the optimal state for a system that includes you. It works at the level of physics like natural selection. You are an unwitting part of this process. You never can say for sure that you affect circumstances, just as they affect you. This uncertainty is fundamental as the Heisenberg principle in physics.
Sorry for the brutal mechanical picture.
Dear Vasiliy
You were sorry because you could only give us a "brutal mechanical picture", but I am pleased to respond that the only illusion in this interchange, is your "brutal mechanical picture". We are talking about a purely spiritual matter, which is concerned with purely abstract concepts that can not be understood from a purely material explanation .
All materialist explanation depends on the action of the 4 forces of matter : electromagnetism, gravity , strong nuclear attraction , weak nuclear attraction. None of these forces participate in any way, in this or any other abstract discusion, and therefore, it can not explain this concepts, that otherwise, because our everyday experience, we know are most real.
Dear Guillermo
Reaction of idealists in this discussion is quite expected. I bothered to scroll this thread. I must say, your views on the world of materialists too ideal.
Alas, I am not one of the idealists as well as materialists. As an agnostic I am not inclined to complicate things, that have simplest explanation. Unfortunately, number of attractions is not limited to the number 4 in my picture of the world. It would be too ideal.
It 'hard to define unambiguously is the free will that freedom. So I believe that free will ends where the freedom of others begins.
Dear Mariano, Debra, and All,
I appreciated the interesting comments in this thread!
I agree that free will is God-given, is inherent in us (to make decisions and determine our attitude and actions, etc.) and cannot be taken away from us even in adverse situations.
Freedom, especially physical freedom, depends on outside entities (e.g., government, others, etc.), for they can limit our freedom to be and to act.
As Mariano said, freedom, in a metaphysical sense, means being free from bondage (e.g., from addictions, etc.). Some of us seek this kind of freedom and want to be free indeed.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
Here is a nice quote about free will, hope you like it....
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
here is a very sweet quote about "Freedom of Choice". please see ..
Jesus said: "The truth will do you free". Knowing the truth the man is more free, and Jesus refers this knowledge to his word which must be heard and practiced.
Markovic, what is "types of freedom" for you? I believe in only one type of freedom, what is based on the truth, and not in other forces.
Free will is one of the fundamental aspects of human cognition. In the context of cognitive neuroscience, various experiments on time perception, sensorimotor coordination, and agency suggest the possibility that it is a robust illusion (a feeling independent of actual causal relationship with actions) constructed by neural mechanisms.
http://faculty.philosophy.umd.edu/PGreenspan/Res/FWRC.pdf
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url=http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2014.00281/full&ei=jID0ubR6&lc=en-IN&s=1&m=498&ts=1447591991&sig=APONPFkgQElvKp_b2Sy_40ufQ-o0B-koyg
According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionaries (links below):
Free Will:
“The ability to choose how to act; the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God”
Freedom:
“The quality or state of being free: as
a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence
c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous”
Dear Mariano: Persons are themselves and the circumstances. For example: Can have a refugee family from a poor country in war the same free will and freedom than a rich family from a rich country that produce and sell the weapons?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freedom
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will
Thank you, António, you could answer your question too.
About free will, God gives us our free will, but also he gives His law and announces His final judgement to all man. The free will is for a time of life. The mercy of His Son Jesus and his Church help to all man.
About freedom, this is got when one knows the God law and acts with intelligence in His way. Freedom can be for an ethernity.
I think that the free man does not depend essentially of his richness. If you believe "I will be free when I will be rich", Jesus teaches that it is difficult to a rich man to entry in the Kingdom of the heavens, but for God all thing is possible.
I would say that responsibility with accountability would be the analogy.
Application of Freedom / Freewill
“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”
Plato
Plato must have been thinking: I am very important/intelligent?
http://dreamhawk.com/dream-encyclopedia/australian-aborigine-dream-beliefs/
Mental freedom is connectivity between (isolated groups of) people via Dreams?
Dear Krishnan and Marcel,
Yes, the humility is a great virtue. Plato was a very good philosopher in his time, but it is preferable to receive honours from others than from oneself. This is our free condition.
Dear Mariano,
I imagine freedom as a “dome” that protects our free will. In other words, freedom means unity, while free will means diversity.
Kind regards!
Freedom is simply refers to things what we can do with (ethics) and largely quoted with politics. and free will is simply to do anything
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
See what Aristotle said about Free Will":
"Happiness depends upon ourselves."
Freedom is the way of ethernal life, free will our liberty in this world.
Contra-Causal Freedom
Exploding the myth of free will empowers to investigate the actual causes of human behavior, instead of chalking it up to mysterious uncaused choices.
Dear Krishnan
If we have not free will, then we can not investigate anything, because we are not Subjects of investigation, nor persons indeed. Then we would be only like a irrational animal and not much better than a computer that without a program can not add 1 to 1. Why do you affirm that our free will is a myth? I know for sure that mine is very real and yours too.
@ Guillermo
Every autonomy either Freedom or Free-will needs to be checked, else the kindness to accommodate, may be taken as a weakness. Freedom and Freewill are myths which can be broken by social norms, policies. Therefore calculated autonomy is required for safety and well being of society.
It is interesting to see philosophical discussions, but I fear that we are hitting the incommensurability problem. That is, same concepts(connotations) have different meanings (denotations) and vice versa. Further, a LOT has already been done in this area, so therefore, a reminder. Free will is, for example, summarized under http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/ with plenty of references to original sources. Freedom is more tricky and depends on the context (cf. http://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=freedom).
You are free to choose what you want to make of your life. It's called free agency or free will, and it's your birthright.
--- Sean Covey
We must believe in free will, we have no choice.
--- Isaac Bashevis Singer
In my personal view, freedom is a state whereby a person is free to do what s/he likes to do or doesn't do the things that s/he doesn't feel like doing (the person is already in free state / environment).
Free will is the power of a person to decide on what / which option s/he would like to take e.g. during an ethical decision / situation of decision-making (rights to choose).
Dear George,
The Church has its own explanation for its sons, and it is not lost in philosophical disquisitions, but in a coherent doctrine.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a3.htm
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."
----- Charles Spurgeon
Dear Mariano
You are most welcome with your quote of the Catholic Catechism about free will. As bishop Fulton J. Sheen would say: There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.
Foreword to Radio Replies Vol. 1, (1938) page ix.
Most people, do not have read this wonderful cathechism.
God offers no instant fix in adversity. He respects our free will and asks us to use it well.
Source - Savitri Hensman, Direct, compassionate intervention on earth is not God's remit but ours, The Guardian, 23rd Sept'2011
Our freedom is a right with our action in the line with the atmosphere surrounded by us & also around us .Freedom creates a policy ,a line of action for which we may either accept it or otherwise .
Our free will remains our own action with our own determination where we can differentiate our action as per our will .Besides for our freewill it works with our conscious mind ,our supremacy of our mind within our divinity for taking a right type of action or for our thinking process & line of behavior as per our FREE WILL.
Free will depends on our discrimination & judgement & we have to take utmost care for deciding the course of our action of our life so that it may not get abused either for our life or the we action taken by us .
Dear Giuseppe,
The free will and the freedom is not constrained to be a researcher. A child or a boy is free and can have freedom without studies or research speciality. And after these ages, the man is free and can have freedom independently of his professional work or without it.
The key for having free will and freedom is the security of and in the society. Without security there is not free men.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
While I was surfing the internet, I found this interesting article relating to to Free Will but It discusses it from different angle, Please read...
"Quantum mechanics
In quantum mechanics, the outcomes of the measurements are only determined probabilistically which apparently "extends" the room for the free will. The random decisions are made by someone – a random generator (or a really, really good quasirandom one, but there is no known way how to replace the genuinely random numbers in quantum physics by quasirandom ones that wouldn't contradict other insights we have about Nature).
The free will theorem guarantees that these decisions are really made in the spacetime region where we observe them – the measured values can't be functions of some hidden variable that would live in the rest of the Universe. So the decision which keys I press (on the PB EasyNote keyboard whose keys A,C,F,N,alt seem to become insensitive at random moments) may be associated with processes inside my brain. In this sense, I have the free will. And electrons' whose spin turns out to be "down" and not "up" decided to have this spin themselves, too. The free will theorem is another theorem claiming that hidden variables cannot exist – but it selectively focuses on hypothetical hidden variables that would live in a particular region of the space (outside the subject or particle with the free will).
please, see the first link for more details and see the second one too...
http://motls.blogspot.com/2014/01/free-will-is-hard-to-define-but-it.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
The discussion regarding the free will of man and freedom is an ancient one. In early Judaism, in a Midrash at Genesis Rabbah 11:5, Rabbi Akiba links the likeness of Adam with God, to his free will: "...as one who knows good and evil of himself." Accordingly, the free will enables man to choose between two ways, specifically life or death. Alas, the Midrash continues that by his freedom of choice man "thereby has himself chosen the path of death."
From this ancient Midrash, it follows that the knowledge of good and evil constitutes the essence of free will. Ultimately thereby, man's destiny is bound to the good or evil choice(s) he makes and such choices come with consequences, namely, either freedom or slavery. It may be argued that the same principles apply today.
Without free will there can be no morality, no right and wrong, no good and evil. All our behaviour would be pre-determined and we would have no creativity or choice.
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Free-Will-Determinism.htm
For Jesus, keeping his word we will know the truth, and the truth will do us free (libres, in Spanish). His word is in the four Gospels. I recommend these texts approved by the Conference of Catholic Bishops of your country.
Free will could surpass the correction and the truth, freedom is limited to the truth and is opened to the future and the ethernity.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
"Life is a compromise between fate and free will."
- Elbert Hubbard
The free man with freedom does not do bad things that he could do with his free will. In this case, he would be slave of his sins.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
Here is a very interesting quote about "Free Will":
"Remove grace, and you have nothing whereby to be saved. Remove free will and you have nothing that could be saved."
---- Jim Cantalupo
There is now a widespread and industrious scientific community, whose aim is to understand the mechanisms underlying these phenomena. The underlying worry is that those things that once seemed to be forever beyond the reach of science might soon succumb to it: neuroscience will lead us to seethe ‘universe within’ as just part and parcel of the law-bound machine that is the universe without. The decisions, choices and actions we take are generally thought to be freely willed. But science reveals them,or threatens to reveal them, to be mechanistically or physically intelligible, and some have argued that our intuitive notions of freedom are thereby mistaken
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~adinar/CV_files/TICS%20free%20will%20%26%20MR.pdf
Talk of free will with possibility of sinning and do not talk of the sacraments of the Baptism and of the Confession, which were instituyed by Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of the sins of the persons, it would be as see the evils but do not see the solution for them. The baptized person is free of his/her sins, they are not slaves. The same thing occurs with the sacrament of the confession for the people of God for which a person recovers the friendship with the Lord.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
"I think there's great potential for autonomy, but we have to remember that we live in a world where people may have free will but have not invented their circumstances."
------- Thomas Frank
The man is able to overput him to his circumstances, this is a fact of his will.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
"We human beings do have some genuine freedom of choice and therefore some effective control over our own destinies. I am not a determinist. But I also believe that the decisive choice is seldom the latest choice in the series. More often than not, it will turn out to be some choice made relatively far back in the past."
—— Arnold J. Toynbee
I think that freedom of choice is free will. In a free society all man/woman has freedom of choice, for example in Democratic General Elections, but in these societies the men/women could not be free all of them because they could live deceived.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
"Free will is the ability to do gladly that which I must do."
----- Carl Jung
The Sistine Chapel:
Free will: the ceiling was commissioned by Pope Julius II to be painted by Michelangelo.
Freedom: high spirituality behind the hidden meanings of Michelangelo’s “Creation of Adam” that the intellect was given to Adam by God “to try all things” (human brainstem is depicted in the larger image encompassing God).
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree."
----- Thomas Campbell
The free will does not assure right behaviour of the persons, so the free will of the persons does not assure free persons according to the truth.
Free will is for all the publics, freedom is an appreciated conduct.
Free will could not respect other men. Freedom respects to all man.
Dear Colleagues,
Good Day,
Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better....
~Albert Camus
In the Christian culture there is not freedom without truth of reference. It is not only a possibility of being better, it is the way in the truth what makes us free.
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