George, Ionesco's The Bald Soprano is one of the most interesting theatre plays I have seen, and I also love to read it aloud, especially the conversation between Mr and Mrs. Martin when they slowly discover that they live together and are husband and wife. Ionesco devised a teatralicality so peculiar that everything I have seen by him I completely remember. Thank you for mentioning one of the playwrights I love the most!

Lilliana

The questions that should be answered by avant-guard theatre directors and theoreticians of 1910-1920s :) Athenian theatre was a unique instrument of political and cultural manipulation, endemic of a precise moment in history and a specific form of public life. Other people in other epochs and social contexts used the performative practices legitimized (in many cases) by the rear view of Athenian theatre following their own goals, some of the latter being definitly political ones. In any case it had nothing to do with the supposed mechanics of Athenian choregos-playwright-performance-public relationships - except for the name - but why it should?

Dear Vadim, thank you for inaugurating this thread. I very much appreciate it.

I have a somewhat different opinion that yours. I copy from another thread:

"Goethe has an excellent theory of tragedy that boils down to the staging of "an irreconciliable opposition" that leads the protagonist to a point of no return and where no more decisions can be made. He was in many ways wondering if Greek tragedy was still possible in his age —a "Romantic age". I think this comment is made in his Poetry and Truth, but I'm not sure. I'll check it up. I kind of remember that the difference in approach was that in his day and age the gods we no longer there to establish "truth" and "justice". It also bears noting that Greek tragedy was a political "deep play", following Jeremy Bentham's idea: in "deep play", a community has the opportunity to play out its concerns for the very community, its leaders, its form of government, its priorities, and so it is never about the leader, or the protagonist, but how, pushed into an "irreconciliable opposition", the drama freezes to give the audience the opportunity, through catharsis, to reckon with their own reality. In this sense, tragedy was a collective opportunity for political education. This is not my idea, but that of many recent Greek tragedy scholars. I do not disagree with you, but I want to stress the deeply political will of Greek tragedy and what was the role of the audience, represented by the chorus on stage.  I think it is Goldhill who proposes the dialogicity of important Athenian activities held in the agora: tragedy started there and is a dialogue; the court met originally in the agora, and it was a dialogue; and, most significantly, Plato, the first formal "philosopher", decided to write much of his production as dialogue. This dialogicity is manifested in tragedy with the chorus, and through catharsis. Athenians had a role to play in tragedy.

It bears noting that people had to go to these tragedies, that the whole event was sponsored by the city, and that importat rituals like the ephebia were conducted on the first day of the festival, a ritual where the orphans of war were "adopted" by Athens as a corpus. The rich complexity of the context of Greek tragedy makes me think if the audience had an attitude, expectations and a behaviour that was privative of the situation, and is completely lost to us. What I mean is that Greek tragedy has many elements that make it an unretrievable experience, it is not just a theatrical "form". We should talk more about this, dear friend, because I believe that the fact that tragedy possibly escapes us may explain why theater, that is always in search of an audience, may be loosing ground precisely because it has become entertainment and is no longer a place were we go to think and learn together about the ways of life.

It may happen that Greek tragedy can be restaged, but that new tragedy is no longer possible mainly because it was a "machine" expressly constructed for its own community —5th century Athens— reason why there was no tragedy in other Greek cities, just in democratic Athens, where the citizens had a say in city affairs. Other Greek cities staged the tragedies already written by Athenian authors. 

Maybe Shakespeare's tragedies should be counterpointed in this conversation."

Best regards, Lilliana

Dear Lilliana, thank you for your answer.

Well, Athens was in no way the only Greek city where the citizens had a say in public affairs. And the dialogic (or rather polyphonic) nature of agora is also a common thing - and not only among Greeks. Putting things in the middle is the basic rule of, say, pirate crews of Carribean or Cossak warrior bands of South Russia steppes, not to mention Megara or Argos. But it seems that only in Athens with its democratic-imperial ambitions different and very interesting political manipulative technologies could be traced in their Entwicklung since Solon via Peisistratos to Perikles - theatre being just one of the kind and of course the most splendid one. All this in no way contradicts what you say - it is just an attempt to look at the picture under another angle. Ephebia - yes, but was it not a message to a citizen like "don't be afraid of dying for the City, the City will care for your sons"? The most convenient thing if you are going not only to protect your own land (no need to press the people to protect their homes) but to take smb else's. Dialogue - yes, of course, but was not the main point of concern in this dialogue, a series of attempts to find balance between Dike and Themis, to do with a necessity to make a citizen persuade the public needs prior to his family ones? Etc.

I suppose you don'tread Russian - and alas I did no papers on it in English. But in the case you by some chance do, see:

www.academia.edu/12973857/Древнегреческая_симпосиастическая_культура_и_проблема_происхождения_афинского_театра

best regards, Vadim

Oh, political theater is far-from-dead, in fact it's more alive than ever! AND it's become more immediate and intimate ... having moved off the stage into new media (ALL OF THEM)! Political theater has morphed into a fast-turnaround "reality" show, with acerbic and witty pundits giving minute-to-minute critiques, coincident with the show being written, produced and presented, as BREAKING NEWS flashes! Each time I turn on the TV, I am presented poignant political theater in the form of every word uttered (every inane tweet broadcast in the last minute) by DONALD TRUMP ... political theater's new celebrity hero and icon. Political theater is TOO alive and well (sickeningly so)!

Dear Bob, thank you for venting your anger at the present anti-tragedy, where there is nothing to learn. Your comment is marvelous!

Lilliana

George, Ionesco's The Bald Soprano is one of the most interesting theatre plays I have seen, and I also love to read it aloud, especially the conversation between Mr and Mrs. Martin when they slowly discover that they live together and are husband and wife. Ionesco devised a teatralicality so peculiar that everything I have seen by him I completely remember. Thank you for mentioning one of the playwrights I love the most!

Lilliana

George, you are making me a great gift! I'll be traveling to Spain around September, I might have a chance to go to Paris for a couple of days. Ionesco would be so good to see. Many years ago I helped a theater director to set specifically the conversation between Mr and Mts Martin. I coached the actors (I used to work in theater when I was very young), and I remember that dearly. I've only seen the play in Spanish and English, but in french it is funnier because it is so much serious, plagued by a rigid etiquette! :-)

Best regards, Lilliana

George, you are making me a great gift! I'll be traveling to Spain around September, I might have a chance to go to Paris for a couple of days. Ionesco would be so good to see. Many years ago I helped a theater director to set specifically the conversation between Mr and Mts Martin. I coached the actors (I used to work in theater when I was very young), and I remember that dearly. I've only seen the play in Spanish and English, but in french it is funnier because it is so much serious, plagued by a rigid etiquette! :-)

Best regards, Lilliana

Dear Lilliana,/dear All,

Thank you for your interesting thread.Catharsis is a mysterious nature of the genuine Fine art.High art is a source of not only aesthetic pleasure,but also a way of knowledge and self-knowledge.In ancient Greece a ritual-cult action became to a tragedy: "horror and compassion"to Aristotle,"moral justification of a hero',to Boileau."The uppermost in the human life is a law,but an unwritten law is greater than a written one".Tragedy was a collective opportunity for political education to think and to learn together(catharsis and dialogue).To Kokshenyova K.A.,"Tragedy is as beaux-arts of the abstract and the generalized embodiment of real life".I.Solonevich considered Russian literature as "the distorted mirror of life".Schopenhauer proved an enormous superiority of real suffering over illusory pleasure "in the worst of the all possible worlds".To Yu.Mamleev,"Life is the Heaven's mockery of the Earth". Russian literature is permiated with tragic pathos: 18 c.:"the truth of "what ought to be,but not "what is","state historicism",ideal Monarch,fighting the evil around(Kokshenyova K.A.) in the tragedies by Knyazhnin,Sumarokov,Ozerov.19-20c:A.Pushkin "Boris Godunov"("People are keeping silence"),Ostrovsky-a fair personality in the land of darkness, belief in the brightest future,Chekhov's creation("Chaika","3 Sisters","Cherry orchard")-tragic absurdity of the characters' private life."Russian people"(K.Simonov).As for comedies-Gogol,Ostrovsky,Griboyedov,they are the most effective tool available to fight moral stagnation and society,deep in self-deception, and fossil bureaucratic world."Morals are improved by laughter"Balzac."However,self-consciousness is possible only through drama.It's better a common disease than an uncommon joy" and "My message is not fighting evil,but presence of evil"A.Rekhviashvili.Nowadays,they discuss metaphysical realism,"universal essence of the human soul"."theatre of syntheses"... To N.Pesochinsky,"you either play out and visualize all in your imagination and conquer the forces (evil) or these forces,blood and cruelty will be not in the theatre,but in reality.This is what in fact happens".You are right,Godot is the best character.

http://www.lib.ua-ru.net/diss/cont/93023.html

http://www.svoboda.org/content/transcript/2289014.html

http://www.dissercat.com/content/problemy-akterskogo-iskusstva-v-teatralnoi-kontseptsii-v-e-meierkholda-1920-1930-gody

http://gorodns.ru/afisha/1606-premera-konstantina-simonova-russkie-lyudi.html

"Russian people" by K.Simonov (tragedy)

Dear Irina, what a wonderful comment!!! I have read some works or authors you mention, but in English or Spanish. I am glad you mentioned Pushkin's Boris Godunov and Chekhof's  Cherry Orchard, a perfect play. I also see the tragic gesture in Russian novels, like the sequence of scenes where Anna Karenina desperately recognizes that there is nowhere to go or anything to do to get back her former life, and finally  jumps to her death on the train tracks. And the chapter in War and Peace where the French Army is slowly destroyed by hybris during their flight from Borodino... You mention authors I do not know. Would you be so kind, Irina, to suggest some readings? Maybe I can spend this coming summer vacation going back to Russian literature.

If you read Spanish, I posted on my blog a lecture I gave years ago about Tolstoi's narrative techniques based on his probable reading of Darwin's The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals that could interest you. Here is the link:

https://bodegonconteclado.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/enemigo-rubor-una-lectura-de-anna-karenina-de-lev-tolstoi/

:-)

Lilliana

Papers like about the book is self-centered and content-driven content for college books as PNU ????

english

Papers like about the book is self-centered and content-driven content for college books as PNU ????

Dear Akram, I do not understand your comment. Please explain!

Best regards, Lilliana

Our "political tragedy" has evolved to apocolyptic or dystopian fiction writing. It is imaginative and not necessarily based on a concern of society. Some "banned" books however did challenge society into thinking in other norms or perspectives contrary to wide beliefs or narrow minded thinking. As for a true tragedy, it depends on the accusor and offender. Mozart wrote plays that were controversial which helped influence people into thinking more for themselves or outside of what they normally do. We may hear the songs now and think nothing of it because it is not apart of our culture, pre-evolutionary thinking, or we are uncultured.

Dear Lilliana,thank you for your interesting reply.May be,it will be interesting for you.Ostrovsky' "The Storm"http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7991/7991-h/7991-h.htm

"The Sea-Gull" by A.Chekhov https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1754/1754-h/1754-h.htm

"Woe from Wit" by A.Griboyedov http://samlib.ru/a/alec_v/woehtm.shtml

Irina! My dear friend! Thank you for your generosity!!!!!!!

:-)

Lilliana

Hi everyone. And thanks for this question, Lilliana. I am a peruvian playwright and teacher. In my opinion, tragic plays have changed as has everything else in time. One of my favorite playwrights, Arthur Miller, gave tragedy a very interesting and powerful spin, giving the "common man" a chance at it. "Death of a Salesman", "The Crucible" and even "A view from the bridge" are, I think, marvelous examples of this transition.

Dear Claudia, thank you for commenting on this question. I have read Miller with great interest, but I feel that the stakes of the "common man" are not high enough to provoke catharsis. Also, personal tragedy in modern and contemporary theatre does not have a clear political context of the sort that may make us think about the community as such, but rather peeks at the uneventful life of the middle class from the point of view of the individual. What we have lost in present-day theatre is its political import, a call to the community. It could be that the death of a salesman is not heroic enough to become tragically "unheroic", and that peripeteia or turn of fate might be something essential for tragedy to take its full course. Maybe right now film has more to say about the community than our present theatre. I still wonder why. What do you think?  I myself do not have an answer. That is why I posted this question. Tell me more about Miller in this context and why do you think this is a "transition" to another kind of tragedy. I am most interested in your opinion.

:-)

Best regards, Lilliana

"In this day and age few tragedies are written." That´s the initial phrase of Arthur Miller in his article "Tragedy and the common man", published  at the New York Times on February 27, 1949. Somehow it seems to me he read your mind in advance :)

I´ll let Miller explain it himself. Maybe after that I´ll dare to say something else.

Thank you very much for your interest and your willingness to discuss the issue. And thank you again for making this debate possible. As a playwright and playwriting teacher, I find it fundamental.

I´ll be very interested in your opinion after you´ve read this.

Best regards,

Claudia Besaccia

(stage name: Claudia Sacha)

Claudia, I promise to read and comment. I am going to be away from RG for a couple of days, so I will comment before the weekend. :-)

Best regards, Lilliana

Querida Liliana:

No sé si te puede interesar lo que yo llevo estudiado sobre el uso de mitos trágicos grecolatinos en el teatro del exilio español de 1939 (https://www.editorialrenacimiento.com/biblioteca-del-exilio-serie-mayor/1724-mito-y-tradicion-en-el-teatro-del-exilio-republicano-de-1939.html) No siempre en esos textos dramáticos hay una visión política del conflicto, pero sí se da una interesante correlación entre la guerra de Troya y las "vueltas" de los vencedores y la Guerra Civil y el destierro en algunas de esas obras. ¡Ah, y escribieron algunas "Medeas"!

Si necesitas más información, ya sabes dónde puedes contactar conmigo.

¡Un saludo cordial y ánimo en tus investigaciones!

Teresa

Hola, Teresa! Acabo de regresar a Research Gate luego de dos años de ausencia total. Dame la oportunidad de reaprender cómo se usa. Estoy totalmente pérdida!!!

saludos, Lilliana

Dear Lilliana!

It is not the question whether theater can still be political nowadays that bothers me, but quite the opposite: how could theater not be political at all? I might be completely wrong, but I understand theater and performance as some kind of a reduction of a society to a still cognitive bearable and to some degree controllable 'experiment'. Theater is a place where we 'discuss' many issues. Directly or indirectly. I am aware that this vision of theater and performance is oversimplification of a complex aesthetic phenomenon driven by my professional perspective (I am a sociologist). But if we define politics as as the way how people negotiate their interests, values, norms and so on in a particular community and the way how they try to solve conflicts, than theater obviously is part of this process. Consequentially, theater is unavoidable political. Greek tragedies is one way to address the political feature of theater. However, theater and performance evolved a bit from the times of Ancient Greece, and now we have different other forms of 'political' theater. At least in Slovenia, I am certain about that, we are lately witnesses of revival of politics in theater.

Best, Tomaž

P.S. I apologize for being 'fashionable' late in joining the discussion. I only lately join the RG.