Fungi? No.

An interesting article has appeared!

Our last common ancestor lived 4.2 billion years ago—perhaps hundreds of millions of years earlier than thought.

Genomes of diverse microbes point to early evolution of a rudimentary immune system...

"The last ancestor shared by all living organisms was a microbe that lived 4.2 billion years ago, had a fairly large genome encoding some 2600 proteins, enjoyed a diet of hydrogen gas and carbon dioxide, and harbored a rudimentary immune system for fighting off viral invaders. That’s the conclusion of a new study that compared the genomes of a diverse range of 700 modern microbes and looked for commonalities to identify which features arose first. Although the analysis doesn’t reveal how life got its start, it suggests a complex cellular organism somewhat similar to modern microbes evolved only a few hundred million years after Earth’s formation..."

https://www.science.org/content/article/our-last-common-ancestor-lived-4-2-billion-years-ago-perhaps-hundreds-millions-years

The earliest form of life is photosynthetic Cyanobacteria ( BGA) which may be 2- membered or 3-membered symbiosis with Algae, fungi.

Rajen Baruah

That is absurd. Microbial life had clearly evolved before before cyanobacteria appeared.

The 1st life form has not been established - and has no definition of "life" that would clearly discern the specific phenomenon.

to the point - please consider the criteria by which the relevant phenomenon would be considered "living". Short of panspermia, it is highly unlikely to have been in a form consistent with anything living now.

Fungi were some of the first complex life forms on land, mining rocks for mineral nourishment, slowly turning them into what would become soil. In the Late Ordovician era, they formed a symbiotic relationship with liverworts, the earliest plants.

Cyanobacteria, also known as blue-green algae, started out on Earth quite a while ago. Possible fossil examples have been found in rocks that are around 3500 million years old, in Western Australia.

Did complex life start on Snowball Earth?

"More than 500 million years ago, the globe was covered in glaciers and sea ice. This Snowball Earth seems hostile to life, yet it was probably during this time that single-celled organisms first evolved into complex, multicellular creatures. One possible answer to this conundrum: when seawater gets colder, it gets more viscous, so individual cells could have started to stick together to move through it more efficiently in search of food. In experiments with modern single-celled green algae, cells living in viscous gels formed coordinated groups to keep swimming..."

https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-physics-of-cold-water-may-have-jump-started-complex-life-20240724/

Nice broad question Alexander Ohnemus but why aren't viruses the first living thing on planet Earth? RNA may not even have originated on our planet

Respectfully

Prof YUKNA

Alexander Ohnemus I went to your link and they state that cyanobacteria left evidence a long time ago ergo is your question are fungi the first multicellular life? TNX CGY

Alexander Ohnemus I went to your link and they state that cyanobacteria left evidence a long time ago ergo is your question are fungi the first multicellular life? TNX CGY

Ljubomir Jacić why do you think snowballs earths happen once every 700 million years or so?

Christopher Gerard Yukna

To determine the 1st life form, one must 1st establish an objective definition of life.

Self replication would be a character of life. Viruses as we know them are obligate parasites - they would have required a host first.

"cyanobacteria left evidence a long time ago"? That's absurd. Alexander's posts are linked to his other posts - they are all BS.

Bacteria and blue green bacteria predate other life forms

The procaryote bacteria became eucaryotic organelles bacteria become mitocondria bg alga chloroplasts first fungi on record mycorrhiza allowing plants to become terrestrial about 600 million years ago

Ljubomir Jacić 4.2 billion years-old LUCA leaves a very short period for the evolution of cellular life, given that the formation of Earth have occurred 4.5 billion years ago. This leaves no time (in geological terms) for suitable conditions for life to develop the last common ancestor (LUCA was an anaerobic autotroph using the WLP for carbon fixation (Moody et al., 2024).

I remember seeing some reasonable calculations based on evolution of diverse protein, which suggested a much longer period before LUCA. Unfortunately, the authors removed them from the internet about 10-15 years ago.

Christopher Gerard Yukna , I have not claimed that snowballs earth happen once every 700 million years! In attached article, the author claimed "The rocks indicated the presence of glaciers in the warmest parts of the world around 700 million years ago...". You should read full article!

Phil Geis What do or can you know about viruses, say inside a thermal vent or in the Crystal caves in Mexico.? I am not trying to provoke you but how on Earth can you say that viruses can not reproduce by themselves? Indeed There is increasing evidence that they can exist commensually or symbiotically as all parasites can. Moreover one virion is not intelligent but thousands or perhaps millions can quorum, sense whether to attack via lysis (virulent) and lysogeny (temperate) phases, and seeming plan ahead. I think it is obvious that viruses can acquire food or energy and reproduce, but we do not have the technology or opportunity to observe this. respectfully Prof YUKNA

Ljubomir Jacić I am sorry for the confusion, every 700 million years was a figure bandied about for the periodicity of Snowball Earths in the 20th century. Therefore let's shorten the question do you have any idea why they happen TNX CGY.

Phil Geis I agree wholeheartedly with Paul Reed Hepperly that bacteria predate all cellular lifeforms. But Alex Ignatov is quite right about the time needed "evolution of diverse protein, which suggested a much longer period before LUCA." It is easy to see how under high pressure and temperature viruses could go from inanimate to living if we hypothesize that they can reproduce without a host. Just saying CGY

Christopher Gerard Yukna

I dispute it is "easy to see" high pressure and heat would produce self replicating viruses. We can hypothesize anything. The hypothesis offers, not defends, the concept. What are the relevant data - esp. in light of the application of high pressure and heat are used to "kill" inactivate viruses.

In any case, the virus must exist prima facie - failing spontaneous self assembly and replication, it would have a pre-existing host - microbial or otherwise.

Christopher Gerard Yukna , It seems you are referring to something else than a virus - perhaps RNA molecules which can have catalytic functions, including replication.

Consider the definition of virus: A virus is a submicroscopic infectious agent that replicates only inside the living cells of an organism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus

Henrik Rasmus Andersen nice to hear from you. good point but I am not sure rna can read print;-). Phil Geis "easier to see perhaps" simply because with increased pressure and temperatures lots of reactions are facilitated, surface contacts, reaction times etc. night guys it is late here Chris

Christopher Gerard Yukna

You asked what I know of viruses I'm a PhD microbiologist and know quite a bit - in clinical and research sense. I ask what you know of these organisms.

But get some sleep. You need it - and some glasses.

Christopher Gerard Yukna, It is widely recognised that self replicating RNA is possible. Article Evolutionary transition from a single RNA replicator to a mu...

This is the basis of the theory that life started with selfreplicating RNA molecules before cells existed. https://www.labroots.com/trending/cell-and-molecular-biology/22442/self-replicating-rna-molecules-life-arose https://www.khanacademy.org/science/ap-biology/natural-selection/origins-of-life-on-earth/a/rna-worldy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world

Since I gave you a reference could you provide one for “There is increasing evidence that they can exist commensually or symbiotically..”?

If we speculate about the evolution of the first organisms, we can hypothesize that the first cellular forms (pre-LUCA) were primitive and unstable. Pre-viruses, in the form of large DNA viruses or other replicones (The route of virus origins apparently involved non-viral replicators capturing and exapting various cellular proteins to become virus capsid subunits... Koonin et al., 2023), could be a way for them to preserve genetic information during unfavorable times. Some confirmation for this idea can be found in a comparative analysis of protein - coding genes present in large DNA viruses, bacteria, and archaea, and in presence of rRNA genes in viruses (P. V. Evseev et al, Presence of rRNA-like regions in Genbank viral sequences," 2021, doi: 10.1109/CSGB53040.2021.9496035.)

Henrik Rasmus Andersen It is widely recognised that self replicating RNA is possible.spot on,

RNA world

The RNA world is a hypothetical stage in the evolutionary history of life on Earth, in which self-replicating RNA molecules proliferated before the evolution of DNA and proteins. The term also refers to the hypothesis that posits the existence of this stage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world

Since this hypothesis is common knowledge it is odd to be chastised to hypothesize said concept.

Henrik btw especially when we are on opposing sides of an argument your questions are pretty much always excellent and pertinent.

Could you provide one for “There is increasing evidence that they can exist commensually or symbiotically..”?

I am happy to explore this more deeply but I will try to be brief here. One of the basic tenets of the book Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer is that the word parasite could also be a symbiont or commensal. There is the dictionary version.

Viruses are no exception. Take the example of bats. Like cows and TB, bats do quite well when infected with rabies. Yes, they do get sick sometimes. But recent research in Bat longevity (20 times that of a complementary sized rodent) and the enormously high body temperatures in bat flight Suggest that at least rabies is livable or commensal via their high body temperatures in flight between 100 degrees and nearly 106 degrees Fahrenheit. Indeed, Rabies is a sexually transmitted disease in humans and in bats, may increase libido even. Article Rabies: A possible explanation for the vampire legend

Our bodies are rife with viruses, like cold sores, etc. As somewhat commensal these endoviruses are subject to the same evolutionary laws that favor symbiosis or parasitism. Indeed there is quite a lot of indications that cold sores favor diabetes in later life.Article Re-emergence of herpes simplex virus type-1 and type-2 manif...

The best evidence of the benefits of viral populations is in the aforementioned undersea thermal vent communities. "Viruses are a part of the hydrothermal vent microbial community and their influence on the microbial ecology in these ecosystems is a burgeoning field of research."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent_microbial_communities. Moreover Deep-Sea Hydrothermal Vent Viruses Compensate for Microbial Metabolism in Virus-Host Interactions Viruses are believed to be responsible for the mortality of host organisms. However, some recent investigations reveal that viruses may be essential for host survival.

Article Deep-Sea Hydrothermal Vent Viruses Compensate for Microbial ...

finally One study of virus-host interactions in diffuse-flow hydrothermal vent environments found that the high incidence of lysogenic hosts and large populations of temperate viruses was unique in its magnitude and that these viruses are likely critical to the systems' ecology of prokaryotes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent_microbial_communities okay Henrik maybe not so brief but the message is clear on viral relationships there is a lot more to learn.

Chris

Dr Phil Geis "in light of the application of high pressure and heat are used to "kill" inactivate viruses." This contradicts where I stated are found the most virion-rich environments on our planet: A. The Naica caves in Chihuahua, Mexico, temperature 40 to 60 C 1.) or Hydrothermal vent communities often at depths of 2,500 meters or more with water rising out of the vents reaching temperature higher than 400°C Understand high pressure in the deep ocean prevents the water from boiling. 2.) As super-heated, metal-infused hydrothermal fluids rise they provide the nutrients for the communities that thrive near the vents. Viruses play important roles in manipulating microbial communities and their evolution in the ocean, yet not much is known about viruses in deep-sea hydrothermal vents. 3. As you are aware virus' group is limited by the availability of iron.4.) BTW Seeing how many fungi develop siderophores for iron acquisition I assume you would agree with this statement as well Iron is an essential trace element that is limiting in most habitats including hosts for fungal pathogens.5.

Again nothing is proven but to ignore high temperature/ high pressure environments flies in the face of what we know of extremophiles.

Sincerely

Professor Christopher YUKNA

References

Christopher Gerard Yukna

Recall you offered heat and pressure on "viruses" were easy to see (perhaps) as origin of life. Can you address that process please/more directly

Do not think you're that familiar with viruses or microbiology. Heat and pressure are the basis for autoclaving - universal means of eliminating microbes including viruses. Viruses are generally more sensitive to heat and pressure of much less magnitude.

Please understand -the term "virus" requires a living host - it's inconsistent to offer priority of life to a parasite. One may well imagine a self replicating chemical entity and those suggested that have some rationale are simpler lamellar and crystalline assemblies, even RNA. Demanding complex structure consistent with a "virus" certainly raises th energy of activation.

There is a lot known of undersea vents in this context - esp lack smoker vents - and postulated as the site for life's origin. https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/hydrothermal-vents-and-the-origins-of-life/3007088.article

Viruses (assumed as bacteriophage) are abundant in all sea water - est 10E7/ml

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature04160#Sec1

Yes iron is essential to about all life forms that produce or "borrow" iron binding compounds. Many pathogens modulate iron availability in their disease process. Please understand, siderophores are needed because iron in our post - photosynthesis oxygenated world as largely insoluble ferric - Siderophores also offer basis for competition for iron. But we are talking abut origin of life - of what significance would they be? Earth is largely reduced and there's nobody around to make siderophores.

Christopher Gerard Yukna ".. the word parasite could also be a symbiont or commensal." But virus are not parasites, neither symbionts nor commensals. A virus can only replicate thought high jacking a cells replication apparatus and be released then the cell lyses.

The examples you mention of commensals are just inactive or low activity virus infections. Then the virus replicate it harms the cells that are used.

Virus in hydrothermal vents are bacteriophages that thrive on the the few bacteria species that live there which are free from predation due to the extreme conditions. Obviously the virus only come from bacteria infections.

Nothing you mention is evidence virus replicate without cells.

Dr. Phil Geis hmm I am not familar with viruses eh? look just because most of your career was in cosmetics you don't have to take it out on me. The fact that I sent you hours of reading material with lots of sentences like "In deep-sea hydrothermal vent ecosystems, virus-like particles are more abundant than prokaryotes and are believed to have a profound impact on microbial communities . The viral abundances of hydrothermal plume samples were reported to be 10 5 -10 6 VLPs ml −1..." you do understand the temperatures and pressure in hydrothermal plume samples don't you? Of course, you did not read anything I sent but knee-jerked a response from textbooks you read in the Army. nor have you responded to the RNA world hypothesis nor Henrik Rasmus Andersen defense of the possibility of viruses reproducing without a host. On a pleasanter note Cosmetic Microbiology which you edited seems to be well laid out and will pick up a copy from the university's library 2006 version. Wonderful impact factor on International Biodeterioration & Biodegradation over 4 congratulations. BTW lots of my French colleagues publish in this field or related ones concerning mostly how to recover abandoned industrial sites. I was able to download 9 articles but perhaps my bad luck not one mentioned the word virus. As to your insinuation, of my scant knowledge of viruses, are you a Democrat? Projecting a bit maybe? Hoping against hope that you have a sense of humor. Chris.

Christopher Gerard Yukna

Thanks for reading my bio. Do you have a point or just indulging in ad hominem?

I did managed hospital microbiology for the US Army, interned in public health while earning a PhD in Microbiology and developed disinfectants and antiseptics. And you??

Thanks for the extended BS. AGAIN - your comment was heat and pressure on "viruses" were easy to see (perhaps) as origin of life. Mind addressing it without obfuscation?

Henrik Rasmus Andersen please type "Viruses are obligate intracellular parasites" in Google. Yes, you can also find nitpicking where viruses are defined as not being parasites, symbionts, etc. But the reason is telling because they are only excluded because viruses need a host to reproduce and true parasites don't.. Therefore you are in a sort of noman's land where your argument is spurious if viruses can reproduce without a host. As to symbionts In Nick Lane's Life Ascending: The Ten Great Inventions of Evolution in the chapter on Death he recounts during plankton blooms, cyanobacteria are given the choice between becoming infected and living in a viral symbiosis, where the virus produces a deadly long-lasting toxin with a short-lived antidote or dying. Infected, these microbes' surroundings are poisonous to other plankton and provide a competitive advantage to said bacteria. However, when enough bacteria in the bloom become infected the "bloom" commits suicide converting to spores and thus extracting themselves of any trace of the virus. I suspect that like there are no multicellular animals that produce their own venom, those very bacteria may rely on viruses to do the heavy listing see Preprint Microbial Outsourcing of Toxins Theory Or why there are no v...

Viruses exist wherever life is found.

Curtis Suttle

I am a Professor from a French Engineering Institute., Phil Geis GMQ I fail to see why developing disinfectants and antiseptics qualify you as a virologist I would prefer not dealing with ad Homienn inferences but you keep saying I don't know anything. Jeesh. Of course, any pathogen that has evolved over time to live in a human host will not survive an autoclave. Tell me something I don't know. 1. One of the richest places for viruses is to be found in the Cave of the Crystals or Giant Crystal Cave is a cave connected to the Naica Mine at a depth of 300 metres, in Naica, Chihuahua, Mexico. so how hot is it there? Phil you might at least read Planet of Viruses by Carl Zimmer. 2. I grant you that you are an expert in fungal pathogens. I am sure you are aware that extremophile fungi can live in nuclear reactors or scalding temperatures so why on Earth would you not understand that viruses can do the same thing? By limiting our conversation to only viruses that infect humans we are discussing only a small fraction of the virosphere. Extremophiles are organisms that live in "extreme environments," under high pressure and temperature. Bacteria often form on the rocks near the hydrothermal vents. Name an extremophile and I will show you a virus that interacts with it. Article Viruses in Extreme Environments, Current Overview, and Biote...

Prof YUKNA

Christopher Gerard Yukna

I am a microbiologist and have worked with viruses as well as fungi and bacteria. One must have experience with all these - as well as unique focus on one for the PhD.

By contrast you are not and know crap all about any microorganism - and have nothing but a lot of diversionary BS to offer for your heat and pressure virus origin of life.

true colors when you can't refute the argument childishly insult. I knew you were Not an adult alas

heat and pressure only make life more likely it is not the mechanism.

Christopher Gerard Yukna

So sorry I hurt your ignorant feelings, Dr. ad hominem.

Please understand, science is based on data, not sophomoric "arguments." Suggest you gain a cursory knowledge of the relevant phenomena - seek to understand before seeking to be understood.

Try to understand science looks to an hypothesis based on data - not imagining a half-clever, childish idea and then looking for data that support. Now it's heat and pressure make "life more likely" - what happened to your virus? In fact we have no idea what makes life more likely.