Still looking for answers to your question?

Marek Lukáč Yes please 😊

I am not sure for an answer regarding my country, but in the case of my University, or better in the case of my Faculty of Civil Engineering there are strict admission requirements: Completed high school in a period of four (4) school years that includes Mathematics as a subject in each of the four years; fulfilled entry classification criteria.

Anton Vrdoljak Thank you for your input. Does «high school» also include high school level vocational education? - and does this in turn give possible admittance to university level education?

Unfortunately I was not able to find official data on English, so I will give some translation (done by myself): Gymnasiums, technical high schools, art and special purpose high schools and other high schools that meet the conditions determined by the classification of occupations, as a rule, implement a four-year curriculum for the acquisition of a professional title that enables the continuation of education in higher education institutions.

As a rule, vocational high schools have a three-year curriculum for acquiring a suitable profession.

Anton Vrdoljak Thank you very much for this information. Our students come from vocational high school and can participate in higher education only under certain conditions. It is not impossible, but not a fully open path to higher education.

In Canada, each province is responsible for their own educational institutions and policies. In Alberta, we are working to make the flow between the two paths more open and inclusive. We have some good work happening in the area of interdisciplinarity and experiential learning to enhance the school-work transition (career development). We offer diverse pathways into post-secondary education (PSE), including transfer credits from vocational school to university and many opportunities for students to upgrade their high school marks to meet admission criteria. There are many ways of knowing that necessarily contribute to innovation and collective creativity. Although some PSE institutions are more progressive in their thinking about this than others, there is work being done to consider alternative admission criteria that is not based solely on high school marks to be more inclusive and encourage stronger student diversity for Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion (EDI) in PSE.

Colleen Knechtel I have had several master students that come from a vocational path to higher education. My experience is not only that they have the same ability to perform well in higher education, but often they have a more practical grasp of difficult theory. In many ways it gives them a reflective edge. Myself I am both a trained and certified chef, a trained and certified sea officer (Captain) and have a masters degree in philosophy before taking my PhD. Although my practical background made the path to higher education long I am happy about the combination. Since I at the time had to take a full high school in addition to my vocational education the path became very time consuming. I see no reason why people with a trade schoold not have the same opportunities for higher education as people taking ordinary upper secondary education.

I can only say, that in Slovakia, you have to have a certificate from upper secondary - general or vocational - secondary school to enter higher education. It means you have to have completed ISCED level 3A to enter 4A or 5B level or level 5A (bachellor programm at university).

Kjartan Skogly Kversøy

Yes it is. However, vocational schools have corresponding higher education institutes in Iraq. For instance, if one finishes the vocational school of trade, she or he can be only admitted to the faculty of Administration and Economics. In the past, only the top five graduates of a vocational school were allowed to pursue a university degree, but nowadays no such terms exist.

Jinan F. B. Al-Hajaj Marek Lukáč Thank you for your very interesting input.

In Bangladesh, students who received a vocational degree can admit to particular higher education institutes

Md Sajjat Hossain Thank you for your input.

Hi Kjartan! In Sweden it is a little complicated.

First, all upper secondary programs (EQF4) also the vocational, can give general access to university education, dependent on choice of subjects and extra subjects chosen. If some subject is missing for an individual, that can be studied in adult education. That is all good and logical, although many students in vocational upper secondary programs make choices of subjects that makes it complex to enter a university program. There are also ”base years” to attend if a set of subjects are missing (Math, Physics, Chemistry, Biology)

Sweden has, since a reform 1978, in theory only one system of higher education. The separate nursing schools, teacher seminars, engineering schools etc that existed then were integrated in the university system and became more academic.

That left a gap for Education for the new job roles and occupations, or the ones that did not become Integrated 1978.

In 1995, first try-out of ”Kvalificerad Yrkesutbildning” started, later becoming permanent as ”Yrkeshögskola” (YH, professional college or Higher Vocational Education), usually 2-3 year specialised vocational educations with about 1/3 of time at a work place. These educations started especially in branches where there was a lack of professionals. The educations were state funded amd open to many education providers and often became popular both among companies and students. The percentage that could get the right job after education was, and is, high. YH educations are classified as EQF 5 (2 years of study) or EQF 6 (3 years - same as university bachelor exam).

Now to the problem. There is almost no way to transfer between the systems, as if a YH- student would want to continue his or her studies. In Sweden it seems almost impossible, if not starting from the upper secondary exam level again. Think of a YH-exam student with 3 years in media studies, starting from the beginning in the university system. Not many do that. They instead access further studies abroad, since it is almost impossible in Sweden, a country that has now a system with dead alleys for study paths.

In Finland, in the Netherlands and in parts of the UK (with ”foundational degrees”) this seems to work a lot better with transfer between systems, with provision of bridge courses, validation, etc.

Personally, I think a tidying up of education systems logistics in Sweden is long overdue. An EQF6 student with an exam should be able to cross over to a university master (EQF 7) in similar subjects at a Swedish university, as an example.

Yes, it can be done in Egypt in the same way

In Criatia there are three and four years vocational schools. You can go to university if you are successful in final highschool exam and you can make it only atfer 4 year highschool program.

Anders Norberg A while ago now I read a book about the differences between the UK and other school systems. I do prefer choices for students to be as open as possible (as Canada does) rather than closing off options too early when students are still exploring their life purpose and setting goals for themselves. This is why I support interdisciplinary experiential learning at the secondary school level to enhance the understanding that there are many pathways to career development for young people, including opportunities for lifelong learning. Seeing career development as a journey and not necessarily a destination is an important perspective for youth to understand. Our provincial school system and especially our university are currently under huge reformations, which are very exciting initiatives to be part of for the benefit of children and future generations. An education system that is based on an Industrial Revolution does not have a place in an emerging knowledge-technology society.

Here in Scotland education is separate from the rest of the UK. There is no vocational ed prior to age 16, and after that it is very possible to switch to HE. A vocational qualification can allow you to enter a degree programme in year 2 or 3 in some cases.

Check out this link:

https://i2insights.org/2020/11/17/navigating-paradoxes/

I think you will appreciate this article. I added a comment that mentions two of your papers Kjartan Skogly Kversøy

Anders Norberg Dead end paths are a terrible waste of possibilities. I was in this type of ssystem during my own upper secondary education end ended up spending eight (8) years at this level. What a waste! In my own career being a certified and trained chef and having practical experience with training my own aprentices has greatly influenced my academic career as a pedagog and philosopher. I was qualified intellectually for higher education after my vocational upper secondary education. My master students are mostly teachers in vocational upper secondary schools with a vocation or trade as a background. They are all wonderful students who really understand the connection between theory and the practical world. Future workplaces need this combination of the practival and the theoretical. Hands and heads working together. Richard Sennett puts it well in «The Craftsman». He claims that when the hand separates from the head it is the head that suffers.

Colleen Knechtel Thank you for mentioning our articles. We really need all the attention we can get. Often our reseach is only understood as a sweet father/daughter project. We think of our research and development work as a serious battle for values in both research and in how we collaborate in developing the lives of people with intellectual disabilities. Thomas Hehir writes: «(...) disability is a natural form of human diversity that is neither pitiable nor heroic, that disability is only tragic when the needs of disabled people are not met.»

Ahmed Lotfy Mirna Leko Šimić Jonathan William Firth Thank you for all your interesting input.

Although in the UK you are required to study A levels (Advanced) to get into university, acquiring as many as you can with preference given to A+ awards for the best universities, this is usually done at 16-18. There are alternative more awards for practical abilities that go up to post graduate levels. These can be for engineering or business. In many ways these are not regarded as sufficiently academic, evaluation technigues can be missing. A level 7 at such a qualification supposedly is the same, with a a research project, as a Masters but would be unlikely to be seen as equal for university lecturing.

My practical skills are limited and it would have been a waste of my and everyone elses time to study such qualifications. Not doing so may have affected my brain, but I am good with that, content with the results.

No

Stanley Wilkin Safaa K. Kadhem Thank you for your input.

I moved from UK vocational to HE education in the 1980s, returning to HE in 2000 to work towards my PhD. I left school at 16years, and became what we called then an indentured apprentice in the UK Merchant Navy. Later, I trained in the military and earned an technical qualification as a Radar Technician. Although it was a military training establishment, it was a course accredited for a vocational Technical Certificate. That gave me the entry qualifications to go to a civilian Vocational College (in the UK a college of Further Education, or FE). Eventually, my vocational Higher Certificate in Electronics got me into HE, and a BEng. I didn't qualify for entry into year 2, but I did have a very easy ride through the first year of my degree. The route I took was not a formal FE/HE transition, but it was certainly achievable.

David Atkinson Thank you for sharing. This was interesting to read.

If you have a professional certificate. In this case, you must complete a bachelor’s degree, and after that, you proceed to higher education, and a bachelor’s degree can be obtained through evening study, as it is widely available in all Iraqi universities.

Ali Abdulhassan Abbas Thank you for the information.

Kjartan Skogly Kversøy

Dear Professor,

This is a fantastic topic for a discussion. In India there is no bridge between vocational training and higher education. So it is very difficult to transfer from vocational training to higher education. I won't say that it is impossible but it is mighty difficult. Not only that, for greater part of India's independent period since 1947, vocational education was looked down upon by people as some sort of an inferior quality product. So naturally the entry of the human resources from vocational education to higher education was denied.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Anamitr.

Anamitra Roy Thank you. I am also engaged by this very important discussion. Our department is historically deeply effected by this discussion. We are among the first departments in Norway that have a colleague that started as a plumber and became a full professor (Professor Ronny Sannerud), started as a hairdresser that became a full professor (Professor Grete Haaland) and started as a chef that became a full professor (me). Our masters degree in vocational pedagogy has existed for more than 40 years (1978) and is still in some ways controversial. The knowledge of the hands is deeply underrated most places.

Kjartan Skogly Kversøy

Dear Professor,

First of all congratulations to you and your colleagues, about whom you mentioned here. You all are having a spectacular life. Hats off to you.

I totally agree with you that the knowledge of the hands is deeply underrated in most places. I think one reason behind this is that the evaluators of such knowledge are not from vocational education background. Most of the times they are from higher education background. At least this is the situation in India.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Anamitra.

Anamitra Roy Thank you. We feel priviledged. It is interesting in several ways. For many of us our university careers would not have been possible for our grandmothers and gradfathers. I come from a family of fishermen and farmers and my grandmother would never have dreamt of becoming a university employee - far less a full professor. At the same time we are in Norway experiencing that the knowledge of the hands is being lost. I know you in India have fantastic craftmanship and people who can make incredible things with the simplest of tools. I newly saw on YouTube an Indian worker making parts for a motorcycle with simple tools and great experience. https://youtu.be/jHMn92SAlgY Workshops similar to this was not unusual in Norway not so many decades ago. Today we throw away what is broken and get a new one or a part from a factory.

Vadim S. Gorshkov

Kjartan Skogly Kversøy

Dear Professor,

I can understand your feelings when you say that today we throw when something is broken. The problem with today's world is that everybody wants everything. Higher education is projected as something glamorous and glorious. So people who are incapable of it are also running for it. And, this is probably the reason for which that vocational education is not given importance. Ancient India prospered because of vocational education and the way it lead towards higher education. Today in India also, we are following the west. We are developing habits of throwing away things when they are broken.

However, the Indian government is doing a lot to promote vocational education. Within a few days, I shall try to upload my thesis which was on the vocational training industry of India. I shall share it with you.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Anamitra.

Anamitra Roy Thank you. I look forward to reading it.

Anamitra Roy I look forward to reading your thesis too Anamitra. Kjartan Skogly Kversøy Hope we can keep this discussion going. It is an important topic to continue to explore as much work is needed in this area. Craftsmanship (Sennett) continues to be undervalued, however, it needs to be included in our emerging Renaissance to celebrate humanity in our evolving knowledge-technology society. The YouTube video with the engine maker in India is great! I have one of a Japanese carpenter somewhere. If I am able to find it, I will share it here at a later time.

Colleen Knechtel Anamitra Roy Looking forward to seeing the Japanese carpenter. Her is another great artisan from India making wonderful handmade fountain pens https://youtu.be/08pUuLREZR4 I am concerned about the continued decline of handwriting. I write with a fountain pen every day and on every meeting. I believe it gives me an edge.

M.K. Tripathi,

What will not prove effective? Please explain your perspective. Thank you.

M.K. Tripathi

Kjartan Skogly Kversøy you are welcome

Fabian Steger Thank you for a long and interesting answer. I wish you the best with your thesis. It is important work you as doing. I will try to follow your work.

Fabian Steger Thank you so much for following up. Tell me when the thesis is finished. It will be interesting to read.

Fabian Steger Kjartan Skogly Kversøy

Thank you for sharing. This is really great research Fabian. This work aligns closely with my PhD topic. It is my conviction that VET is an important aspect of all general education programs. The studies of humanities (STEAM) also equally important to advancing innovation. IIncluding VET, STEM, and the Humanities is my intention when applying interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary studies. Other ideas? Hoping to keep this discussion going. Please notify me as well when your thesis is finished.

Hello M.K. Tripathi

These are strong criticisms, and I am very interested in your thoughts about interdisciplinarity and collaboration for innovation in a knowledge-technology society. Do you believe that siloed disciplines make stronger researchers, or what is your perspective on these efforts? Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It is difficult to understand your criticism without explanation. Would appreciate it if you would expand and explain your perspective.

M.K. Tripathi

Fabian Steger Thank you so much for remembering me. Congratulations! I am looking forward to reading your thesis.