Poets comprehend the world in figurative language, their aim is to transform familiar things and drab realities to unfamiliar obscure and complex images. They try to convert subjective experiences into objective epiphanies and all the more discover the ultimate truth through visions, hallucinations or amalgamations of thoughts and images.

Thanks, Sarika Goyal ." Poets comprehend the world in figurative language": But comprehension implies receipt while poetic production implies expression or production. Do we receive by language or by sensations?

Another point: What appears to be "poetic" or "literary" to the ordinary observer could very likely be "literal" to poets.

Could you recommend a source or theory that relates to this? Thanks!

Fiann Paul

I think they're two specialties. Poetics can send special messages that capture us; here an aesthetic moment is important, often also the special form (e.g. the metrics of a poem). But the second moment is the message itself, which contains a concentrated thought that hits our heart. Both the aesthetic and the content moment are taken up by our feelings, because the message of poetics is true. This truthfulness can be expressed in a particular beauty, but sometimes also in a particular realism, which does not exclude cruelty, because what happens in the world is often cruel - as is human imagination. Poetics does not only take hold of the real world, but also of fiction, in the past, present and future.

Hein Retter , thanks! Do you think that human perception throughout history has gone (is going) through some kind of evolution, or is cognition basically the same whether to comprehend the world in terms of senses and the literal or in terms of imagination (fiction) and the metaphoric?

Is the realistic perception that depends on perceiving things as they are lower in the ladder of evolution than perception in metaphoric terms, or are they basically the same?

Muthana Makki Mohammedali

Unfortunately, I am neither an expert in the field of aesthetics nor have I dealt with the complex question you ask. Here the experts from the field of art can probably provide better information.

In the context of my answer I have several sources of reference, a central classical source are the "Aesthetic Letters" by the poet Friedrich Schiller (1793), a treatise in letter form which was quite common in Europe at that time. Schiller had assigned aesthetics a central area in human life - in the middle stands between sensuality on the one hand (bound to matter/body) and the on the "form drive" which sstrives for freedom, autnomy, bound to moral law,. (following Aristotle's distinction between matter and form, as well as the aesthetics of Immanuel Kant and the difference between human nature and human reason).

In the encounter of material instinct and formal instinct, a new realm emerges that enables beauty as a realm of freedom: this is culture as the basis of aesthetic feelings/consciousnes. Schiller makes this clear using the example of the "game/play". The famous word comes from Schiller: man is only really man in his hunamity where he plays. We know: play is not terribly serious - war game (chess) is not a real war -, but is "aesthetic appearance", is "doing-as-if". There is the opportunity to leave reality and to go in the world of fiction, phantasy, play, art to enjoy culture, without forgetting formal and moral aspects of evaluation.

Sequel: One can also ask, of course, where do aesthetic needs occur in the history of human evolution? At what stage of development does man develop the ability of perception to understand objects symbolically? This is a very interesting question, because the aesthetic ability is obviously not necessary for immediate survival. It seems that aesthetics is a buffer - just as our body possesses a complex buffer system of blood that buffers the pH value of blood within narrow limits and thus functions as a balancing memory.

That would mean for us at a poem: It leads us out of fear, agression. boredom on the one hand, and out of the necessary activity of securing our existence and the drive world on the other. Our joy of considering and perceiving a picture, a monument, a poem leads us into a realm of freedom: if aesthetics are regarded as a "buffer", then one can also explain why the ideas of a better world and the accusation of cruelty and inhumanity only have a place in art. If reality is not what we want it to be, then a poem can give us the freedom to recognize and interpret the "aesthetic reality" symbolically represented in it.

Hein Retter , thank you for your elaborate reply, sir. When man pursues a question and realizes that there is no definite answer to it yet, there is that sense of bitterness and frustration at our human limitation in understanding ourselves. However, perhaps it is this open-end that keeps the door open for others to pursue the quest.

Yes, this is a really stimulating topic (your question) at a time full of real threats, so I find the question very fitting. You could, of course, relate it to other areas of art like film, theatre, caricature.

"Poetic creation is a way to perceive himself, to understand the world around him"

Vladimir Mayakovskii

In addition to my previous comments, I would like to point out that love is a central field of classical poetics, in all countries and all languages of the world. Why? Because all cultures have one thing in common: physical love as the last fulfilment of the longing for love of two people is the most intimate process there is. It happens beyond the public sphere. It was the basic thesis of Sigmund Freud and his psychoanalysis that the "libido", the desire instinct, is suppressed by consciousness as soon as we find ourselves in a situation with other people. Thus the aesthetics of a love poem reflect in its finest images the sexual behavior - exchange of bodily fluids. The sexual instinct is strong, therefore the love poem is strong, at the same time those processes that trigger shame in public - not least in the family before the children - are transposed into a process of aesthetic refinement.

So here perception is driven by the physical and the instinctual. Thanks, Hein Retter ! This is illuminating!

The world is no longer a coherent, understandable and clear world for the poet as it was in the past few days, and the poet is no longer and represents the language of the tribe. Rather, the poet says the poem of the moment that belongs to itself.

In fact, a state, a ruler, a government sometimes makes greater use of certain artists because they are anchor points to strengthen the people's identification with the state, a ruler, or a government. Some poets have resisted them and emphasized their independence, while others have assumed the role of "state poets". It may be that today, more than in the past, the motive to want to be independent of politics or interest groups in artists (poets) is more pronounced than in earlier epochs.

Hein Retter , Yes. There has been an earlier comment by some colleague here about the fact that poets write from the perspective of being "broke". Perhaps it is the financial drive that encourages artists to enlist in the political propaganda of the state; hence, the "poet laureate" tradition. The tendency you have referred to is considered by a current of today's intellectuals, Gramscians, a shame, with their Organic Intellectual concept.

First, I am not a poet but can comment on what Maritain says about poetic intuition and creativity. The poet's vision is intuited, meaning that the experience is processed through a spontaneous consonance or resonance between natures rather than discursively. For instance, the seascape and the poet become one through resonance--an identification between natures--which subsequently becomes the object of their work (poem, painting ...)

Ken

Jan Raab , thanks! Don't you think that the whole process of perception has some theoretical common grounds that can be applied to different poets? I mean it's just like linguistics whose theories are applicable to different languages.

Actually I'm interested in the subject as far as American poetry is concerned, thanks for sharing the German examples.

I find your statement that there cannot be "a conclusive answer" horrifying, (is that the right word?!), It is infinitude that engulfs us, defying our human faculties at trying to "seam" together the fragmented parts of the existence and leaves us at existential unease.

Ken A. Bryson , thanks! Do you think that intuition stands in a position that opposes logic?

What about intuition's position to perception? What kind of relationship is there between the two?

It seems that intuition must precede perception as well as intellection and for this reason is free from doubt which cannot be said of perception or logic

Doing poetry is a very complicated process. Since Aristotle to Eliot, there is a long tradition of defining poetry. Aristotle placed it as the most sublime among other finer arts as dance and music. He said that poet doesn't merely imitate the world and nature but recreates it. According to him in his theory of arts, tragedy should also be in verse which itself is the highest form of literature.Though love is a common subject of poetry but epics written by Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Dante and Milton are such a genre that are unparall.However,poets perceive the world through senses, but his observations, study, intuition,and cognition along with his circumstances and surroundings also matters@Muthana Makki Mohammedali

I find I cannot make statements about poets in general. I can only speak as a poet who happens to be interested in questions of poetics (and I know many poets who choose not to articulate ideas about either poetics or aesthetics). I consider ‘being’ to be the process of reality making. ‘Human being’ is just a reality making process characteristic of a creature with a specific range of sensory capacities and of perception, cognition, memory and imagination. Human memory and imagination seem to be the crucial capacities that necessitate the invention of (full-blown) language. This is because language holds reality together by encompassing and ordering the expanded sense of time that memory and imagination introduce. And language enables realities to be shared. Whatever reality ‘being’ makes for the individual it is tested against the realities of others through the imperfect forms of communication that language facilitates. From the successes and failures of the individual’s attempts at communication a feeling for, and an idea of, the world around the individual emerges. So, what is special about the poet’s perception and comprehension of the world? Well, first and foremost, I think the poet tries to cut through the complexity and thickness of the language that naturally emerges out of the vast array of human interactions involved in negotiating ‘world views’. It is a creative effort to identify, distill, and articulate ‘telling moments’ in the those aspects of the world that might otherwise remain unrecognized, or be taken for granted, or be thought unremarkable, meaningless, weird, etc. In this sense, by crafting language into condensed penetrating and enriching forms of expression the poet is a world sharpening tool. But, I emphasize, this is me speaking as a poet and not speaking of or for all poets.

The role of intuition in poetry is difficult to define. No one knows how the seeds of poetry are sown in mind and how they give fruit in the form of verses. Wordsworth said that poetry is spontaneous flow of mind.The best example of intuitive poetry is "Kublai Khan" by Coleridge@Jan Raab

Jan Raab , thank you so much for the suggested sources!

Geoffrey Mark Matthews , thanks!

I do agree on the role of memory and imagination in poetic or artistic creation. I noticed that Romantic studies stress these factors while I'm not quite sure about modern and contemporary studies. I always thought that a first hand experience in writing is the real source of truth revelation about getting to the bottom of creative writing. It is a major tool in "self-perception", which, I assume, very important for artists and poets.

Cheers

"Poetry is a Ride to the Unknown"

Vladimir Mayakovskii

According to the Master, Aristotle language is a medium for poet . It is not just the articulation of language in poetry, but the world perceived by the poet is to shown to the reader as well .The poet is as said by Roland Barthes :give me a pebble of sand and I will convert it to hundreds of images.@Geoffrey Mark Matthews

Ken A. Bryson , Isn't "perception" a wider term that includes, in addition to intuition, other ways or tools for understanding or cognition?

I can't see why intuition is considered as higher than perception while it should be part of it.

On this topic I recommend the studies of Henri Maldiney, esp. his study on rhythm as well in existence as in poetry. And also the study of Joel Clerget, psychanalist and poet, on Rimbaud's "JE est un autre".

The problem with including perception in the first moment of intuition is that it distorts reality by presenting the object of intuition in a way not in itself. The first movement it seems to me must be a means to insight rather than a perception of it.

Perception is based on observations

I want to qoute a verse by the Master Urdu poet, Ghalib , and its English translation is mine. The translated verse is so : These subjects come to mind from unknown spheres

Ghalib elaborates them through wings of angels with the voice of his quill

Ghalib elaborates them through w

Kurt Röttgers , thanks for the suggestions.

Ken A. Bryson , Where do you put "first impressions"? Do they come from intuition?

REPLY: " The problem with including perception in the first moment of intuition is that it distorts reality by presenting the object of intuition in a way not in itself."

This is very interesting, but is this a Western attitude?! What about Western materialism guys?!

Intuition is the conceptual process or means to knowledge. Poetry arises as that process is made the object of artistic expression. Intuition functions as the exemplar of art. The intuition is known after the fact of becoming the object of perception and artistic expression. We need to deconstruct the poem to catch a glimpse of how the intuition gleaned its data.

Ken A. Bryson , Yes, this does make sense, though it reduces the role of perception into a mechanical process. The definitions I found for "perception" include not only the use of the senses but also the process of cognition itself.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perception

Notice please 4a in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition.

It should be clear to any professional poet, especially if he writes lyrics, that he does not feed a family from it.

It is difficult to locate poets ways of understanding the world. Each of them has his/her own lense and window to perceive and receive existence then to reflect it. Different experience and mentalities.

Saman Abdulqadir Hussein Dizayi True. However, I think that difficulty of a specific research is one point that indicates a potential research gap that could be filled in.

Please refer to , "On The Sublime " by " Longinus . It will give a new dimension to discussion @ Muthana Makki Mohammedali

I agree that perception and cognition are active but the claim to objective knowledge exacts a distinction between the means and term of knowledge. Otherwise the intuition of being becomes the process of mind flapping over its own mental contents rather than the unfolding of being.

The being and unfolding of being is nothing. The poet has to depict his ideas freely . But even in choice of words , symbols, images and ideas subjectivity proceeds. The debate of subjectivity and objectivity is very long , since Aristotle to Kant . According to Sartre " willow tree" is different for a poet and different for ordinary person. Poet as well as ordinary man is determined by his circumstances. The poet who addresses the problems of his times may be termed as objective, but in the selection of his themes and subjects, he again becomes subjective. It is just like learning something. You observe, imbibe , chew, digest and then pen down your ideas on paper. As Longinus says that certain things are learned and certain things are instinctive@Ken A. Bryson

Thanks, Mubasher Mahdi , yes, the Sublime is an important concept in this regard.

The poet makes people happy but he is a poor man, often.

In my opinion ,comparative literature is what the researcher do by finding the similarities and differences between two texts.

Ousias or the unconcealment of being ( le degagement de l’etre) is about being showing itself to us. I think that intuition gets this communication spontaneously. The poet, in my opinion takes a lifetime of work to express the inexpressible beauty of that intuition. How for instance could words ever exhaust the richness that feeds it.

This is related to style . Every poet uses a specific lexis . From infinite vocabulary of language, poet choses those words which are meant for elaborating his ideas and subjects @Ken A. Bryson

I think "X"

is to do something different from

I feel "X"

To understand the poet we have to first understand poetry. How do we know a piece if writing is poetry in the first place?

Language seems to have evolved to help us navigate the external objective world (the realm of the scientist) of trees and lions and it is very good at describing these things and how they interact with us.

But as we turn language toward the subjective (the realm of the poet) the world of love and meaning - our language becomes simile and poetics.

Some of us seem to be born more attuned to the "objective" world around us and others more in touch with the "subjective."

Poets distinguish themselves from technicians or mechanics or scientists (the people who focus on HOW things happen) in that they (poets) focus on the "why" things happen and what it means to us.

I think many people go through a POETIC phase in life where they try their hand at poetry. It is the same time of life (late teens early adulthood) where they are most concerned with establishing their own place in the world, discovering their mates and their loyalties. It is their most "emotional" time of life.

Each of us have poetic leanings, just as each of us has scientific leanings, but most fall somewhere in-between and we grow up to be neither scientist or poet. But we retain some interest in each as both outlooks speak to who we are.

Please refer to Chomsky, and his views about language , specially of competence and performance. And also the views of Skinner and De Sausse @Stephen Martin Fritz

The first and most fundamental step in this inquiry is to look at the poem in question.

'Intuition' is a concept I rarely use. There are things that momentarily I believe to be true despite the lack of reason a coherent internal voice might provide for such a belief. This kind of moment could be labelled ‘intuitive’ particularly if it results in action or the expression of a feeling about the belief. (Maybe there is a scale of such moments between simple intuition and full-blown faith.) However, the word ‘intuition’ carries certain etymological baggage that I find burdensome. The notion of immediate ‘spiritual insight’ suggests to me an unnecessarily ‘high-level’ mental operation. Whereas I think what is going on is actually rather mundane, something all competent humans experience as a normal aspect of ‘being’, which, as I said in my earlier comment, I consider to be the process of reality making. Much of the reality that ‘being’ makes for the individual accumulates to form a sense of the surrounding, and there is an immediacy about this, but I think it arrives as a low-level, pre-linguistic, achievement of the human faculties. Intuition then, rather than implicating a spiritual, higher-level ‘being’, is a sudden bursting into consciousness of an, often surprisingly coherent, accumulation, one that impresses the self-conscious rational subject as some kind of insight, which immediately challenges (and sometimes defies) the ability of the internal voice of reason to articulate. I have no ‘proof’ of these ideas, of course; perhaps think of them as a poet’s intuition.

You bring out nice distinctions. I seem to connect intuition with spiritual because I invariably connect spirituality with a search for sacred meaning and intuition with a spontaneous discovery of sacred values such as harmony, beauty, unselfishness ...

Please refer to "De Anima " by Aristotle.

Thank you Ken A Bryson for your encouragement. To expand a little for our instigator's benefit (Muthana Makki Mohammedali).

Early on in my life I discovered ‘designing’ as a peculiarly satisfying practical and intellectual approach to living life. Consequently the exploratory, playful, form-giving, resolution-oriented, motive has stayed with me. This relates closely to the notion of ‘being’ as reality making: I think there is something characteristically human about designing, as if it is a consequence of human 'being’ that makes some people world-shapers in a very practical sense in addition to being world-makers through everyday reality sharing communication. If the sacred surfaces in a poem (or any art work) I make it is not because I placed it there by design, but rather because the reader brought it into ‘being’. I would not deny that the sacred is still there, it clearly is, but it is less the writer’s and more the reader’s achievement to have ‘realised’ it.

I am qouting a haiko by a renowned poet of Urdu and he belongs to my city. The translation of this haiko is mine. The translation is so: when opened the book of philosophy,

On the letters of Sartre, one butterfly was brooding on her being @Geoffrey Mark Matthews

Barry Goldensohn , thanks! Are you suggesting that there are as many ways of cognition as there are poems? I have Emily Dickinson, Theodore Roethke, and Robert Frost in mind.

Geoffrey Mark Matthews , thanks for your insightful elaboration.

REPLY: "Maybe there is a scale of such moments between simple intuition and full-blown faith": Do you think that perception and intuition are scaled also?

REPLY: " the word ‘intuition’ carries certain etymological baggage that I find burdensome ": Are you referring to the word's root "to look" ? Even in English we say "I see what you mean" in the sense of I understand. However, I always wondered how the world "looked" like to those who were born blind.

REPLY: " The notion of immediate ‘spiritual insight’ suggests to me an unnecessarily ‘high-level’ mental operation.": I can connect this with first impressions which have similar urgency but do not suggest high-level mental operations. Do yoga practitioners go through high-level mental operations or do insights just flow to their minds effortlessly?

Guys, sorry I'm asking too many questions! Please, feel free to overlook any of them! I'm enjoying this discussion, though!

Talking of intuition and spirituality, here is a little imaginary scenario:

An evil Moriarty who is coming after you for wicked intentions, he searches for you, does not find you and ...voila! An idea of your whereabouts springs to his mind (metaphorically speaking). Can we call such a moment of spontaneous insight "spiritual"?

There are two ways of saying poetry. One is after mastering the craft, i.e. meter . Other is to do poetry with the sense of sonority . In grasping the meter, the poet can do experiments of variety of forms. The poetry done on sense of music is natural. In Arabic, the poetry had an oral tradition since long . But there were rules and regulations also . The Persian poetry also owes much to Arabic and its meter is same and this is also followed in Urdu. But western poetry also had meter, but its tradition changed from Romantics .Though it remained lyrical but it was done on cognition i.e. (awurd) or poetry done with conscious efforts. On the other side eastern poetry specially in Urdu is still based on spontaneous flow of mind. But now poetry, poetic experiments, have gone so far and poetry is following rhythms of breath and pulse.

Thanks, Geoffrey Mark Matthews .The idea that meaning is not inherent in world objects and is man created is interesting. This brings the role of culture in, doesn't it? The idea of sacredness is very intriguing. Here is another imaginary but plausible scenario: A holy scripture written on paper in pencil is erased. What happens to the sacredness of the scripture? Is it in the now white paper, eraser dirt, ...?

Without poets and without poetics the world would be much poorer than it already is.

Muthana...I think that spirituality can go off the rails and plug into negative sockets as easily as positive ones ...

To respond to Muthana Makki Mohammedali's response to my comment about beginning the discussion with particular poems. I would not argue that every poem requires a different mode of cognition, but they can differ enormously. One would not suggest one mode for The Soul Selects it's own Society, To His Coy Mistress, the Intimations Ode and the Wasteland, for example. As I said: begin with the poem. There must be types, and an industrious and ingenious scholar might suggest a typology.

Thanks, Barry Goldensohn . In what way does a poetic mode differ from type?

Why do you believe we have the capacity for poetry at all?

Why does it exist? What are the evolutionary pressures that brought it about?

How does it fundamentally differ from prose?

The idea of the "evolutionary pressure" appeals to me! It presents poetry or poetics in general in the position of a remedy, or a defense against something. Some colleague mentioned that it is a buffer against human cruelty. Do people with a criminal history write poetry?!

I SING to use the waiting,

 My bonnet but to tie,

And shut the door unto my house;  

No more to do have I,

Till, his best step approaching,  

We journey to the day,

And tell each other how we sang 

 To keep the dark away.

(Emily Dickinson)

I think the human capacity for language evolved as an independent function of mind for communication with other members of our group.

But the mind looks in two directions, inwardly toward the subjective world of truths, needs and feelings...

And outwardly to the objective world of trees and fire.

So language has to serve both our objective and subjective experience of reality.

Language is very good at describing the objective.

--Hard, soft, sharp, dull, hot, cold all read and interpreted by our physical senses.

But language lacks common words for our feelings, so we transpose the worlds for the objective onto the subjective

So my head is hard if I am stubborn, a sunrise is soft, a pain is sharp or dull.

And poetics evolved (I'm speculating) to give the world of subjective reality (love, hate, patriotism) an OBJECTIVE existence.

Our lives attain meaning (helped by poetry) as we give reality to our dreams, satisfy our desires, and turn our TRUTHS into FACTS.

Poetry makes feelings REAL.

Poetry can be used to bring all sorts of "feelings" into the world of objective existence.

So, though love is one feeling often expressed in poetry, so too can we express the feelings of stoic bravery felt by a wounded soldier left to die on the battlefield, and his resignation to the inevitable.

Here is a Rudyard Kipling poem that is well known that expresses a soldiers emotions and a final commitment to do ones duty.

When wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains

And the women come out to cut up what remains

Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains

And go to your God like a soldier

When you think of the consciousness that produces poems you need to look at the individual poem and not the poet. Consider the different states of mind behind Roethke's greenhouse poems, Papa's Waltz, The Waking and An Elegy for Jane, just to consider one poet's work. Or Dickinson's I heard a fly buzz and Two butterflies. Or Donne's The Sun rising and Death Be not Proud.

What makes a piece of work a poem?

Can something be both a poem and not a poem at the same time?

If I say something I wrote is a poem and no one else feels this way, is it a poem or not?

If I write something that was not intended to be poetic but was read that way by others, is it a poem?

What does a piece of writing have to possess for you to consider it a poem?

The subject of Truth maybe one of the most controversial subjects outside academic circles, as well as inside, of course. It is present in human consciousness in our daily interactions with the world.

Life is a big labyrinth of metaphors.

Maybe poetry intensifies feelings that already exist interdependently from the world of art.

I’m sorry Mr Muthana, I feel like you are asking the wrong people. How could we know the answer. The poet’s intentions, among other things, is what we, as readers , try to find or claim to find in the text. It is the poem that is important and is the subject of the study and not the poet.

The discussion has turned to a new dimension. It has lead to the debate, whether form is important or content. Russian formalists of twentieth century insisted that form is prior to content. According to them, if any piece of poetry is not in proper form, it could not be considered. But what about the idea of "death of author", by Roland Barthes?

Digamos que la poesía es una forma de comunicar ciertas vivencias caracterizadas por la intensidad (la monotonía, a veces, puede ser terriblemente aguda). Las palabras constituirían un modo para decir; un modo que ha variado en el tiempo (por diversas razones) y que también ha sido objeto de reflexión sobre su adecuada pertinencia para decir lo que, dicen los poetas, no se puede.

Thanks, Miguel Maguiño . Assuming that I got your reply right, I would say that the intensity of the experiences which are supposed to be expressed through the medium of poetry is not an objective truth, is it?

World objects and experiences do not have inherent meanings. Individuals create their own meanings; the process as some colleague mentioned earlier, is culture-bound and subjective. The problem, as well as the beauty of the whole issue, is in this subjectivity. It is colorful, "Pied beauty", to use Hopkins's words, that makes poetic vision continuously rejuvenating. I write this also thinking of the horrible consequences if meaning or truth exist objectively. Traumatized communities, gangs-threatened societies, I believe, exist because there are people who believe that world objects have one meaning; a meaning that they have created around things in their own minds.

If you don't know what to do in a difficult situation, it sometimes helps to take a walk or read a volume of poems.

That implies a change of perspective by detachment and distancing from the historic moment of the experience, which is the opposite (not sure) of what a current Iraqi poetic movement seeks:

https://observers.france24.com/en/20150429-iraqi-poets-flirting-death-mines

In United India, in 1935 , Progressive Writers Association was founded. Those writers practically worked with labour unions and arranged study circles. And in their writings from poetry to prose , they addressed the problems of class based Indian society. They through their writings and practical struggle wanted to change the class divided India and up to the extent of bringing Revolution of poor masses. Can we call it objective literature ?@Muthana Makki Mohammedali

We could argue that there are objective "truths" or "realities" but can literature be objective? Not sure. Literature draws on forces that put it on a borderline between reality and fiction. A very fine line which requires (a) very special mindset(s) to perceive. Among these forces are intuition, imagination, memory, emotions, and, above all, creativity that utilizes all these to produce an artifact; a piece of literature. So can objectivity be maintained after all this?!

I'm curious to know the result of the intellectual endeavor of the Indian Progressive Writers, Mubasher Mahdi .

Most of the progressive writers didn't admit the division of India. Some of them came to Pakistan. They planned to qou the newly born state. They were arrested and imprisoned in horrible jails .The nephew of the general secretary of the progressive writers was also put in jail and his dead body wasn't returned to the remaining ones. But the literature they produced is the finest ever in Urdu. This association was again tried to be revived, but didn't gain popularity. But even now young and old writers are inspired by it and follow their way .Among those Faiz Ahmed Faiz was a very prominent figure, but half of his life was spent in jail and half in exile. Moreover , most of them belonged to Shia faith. And for the age old debate of subjectivity and objectivity in art or poetry please refer to "Kant's Critique of Judgement "@Muthana Makki Mohammedali

Academia, Politics, and Religion ... an everlasting power-conflict in the East. I wonder what our colleagues from the West have to say!

Mohammdali, the famous English poet, Shakespear said this about the world and I quote: "All the worlds a stage and all the men and women are players". It is up to the players to decide whats the line for their performance will be today. Will it be respect? Will it be murder?

Here we say "A man is where he puts himself".

I want to qoute Nelson Mandela who said life is struggle. The miners, the labourers, the carterers , the farmers, the cab drivers, all struggle. The people who work all the day long and at the end of the day have a pint of beer and small wimpy or a bottle of milk do a severe struggle. To write about them by an artist or a writer has to pass from different struggle, a struggle inside, to absorb their agony and then feeling their agony and then pen it down, another struggle. An inch and an inch of life is struggle. Even moving step forward is struggle. To put the loaf of bread into mouth is struggle. To come out of the ditches of hellish illiteracy and to change your circumstances is another kind of struggle. To see dream like Martin Luther king for the black people and their rights is a heroic struggle, and to the extent of sacrificing your life is unforgettable struggle. Shakespeare wrote plays some four hundred years ago, when feudal system prevailed, and he wrote about court and courtly manners and moreover,his qoutations are for mental relishing. It is better to write about the gigantic problems of today,like war , poverty, illiteracy, psychological disorders and extremism and injustice and intolerance. To address world immersed in greed of every kind and the other world of deprived ones, and to highlight these issues is the responsibility of poets and artists @Faith Bays

Singers and song writers are our modern poets.

From the Beatles:

Lady Madonna, children at your feet Wonder how you manage to make ends meet

Who finds the money when you pay the rent? Did you think that money was heaven sent?

Friday night arrives without a suitcase Sunday morning creeping like a nun Monday's child has learned to tie his bootlace See how they run

Lady Madonna, baby at your breast Wonders how you manage to feed the rest

Stephen Martin Fritz , Mubasher Mahdi , Faith Bays , thanks you'll guys. All this confirms the value of literature/ poetry in human society. The issue is that poetry is a multilayered cultural product that is intellectually demanding. This makes it accessible only to those who value its merits; the problem is in the rest who look down on it. I do know people in academia who disdain literature and literary studies!

In short in Persian they say: Shairy Nigare Hazar Shava Ast , that is Poetry has thousands of dimensions@Muthanna Makki Mohammedali

How much does a poet like Robert Frost poetically invest in emotional response comparing to, say, Emily Dickinson or Theodore Roethke?

Kennedy said Frost is America. And when Nehru died from under his pillow, " Stopping by the woods on a snowy evening ", was founded. What else could be said about Frost's influence on modern poetry?@Muthana Makki Mohammedali

Frost, at least for me, defies my idea of what makes poetry poetry. What is so poetic about being objective, mechanical, and cold that wins him his fame? He practices a kind of V effect that (supposedly) keeps the reader from being emotionally involved, but who wouldn't be moved by his poem "Child Burial", for example?! Frost is an enigma. His poetics doesn't have to do with emotions and intuition, does it?

Sorry, Mubasher Mahdi , I know this does not answer your question.

What about " Road Not Taken " and also "Mending Walls "?And what about his description of scenic beauty of "New England "?@Muthana Makki Mohammedali

Just as cold and mechanical as Yeats's golden singing-bird in "Byzantium". However, the fact that there are many who are moved by such poems proves the "poetics", "open-meaningness" of such compositions. Now is it the work or is it the receiver?

After all, emotions and intuition are just one approach to art, @Ali mohamed rashed .

Intuition is also perception that comes through senses and is directed to brain, which is their source and its material, so thought and ideas are also material @Muthana Makki Mohammedali

It seems to me that the philosophical literature uses the term "perception" to refer to the use of the senses rather than the mental activity of "processing" the sensory images. For the latter, the term "cognition" is more appropriate, I believe.

One of our colleagues here suggested something similar.

As for intuition, I understand it as some "alien" source of understanding. What do you think of visually disabled people who are intellectually active and smart?

I would say that intuition in this case dominates. It transcends the senses, but can it be isolated from the senses?

Man has learned through evolution. In million of years, when life started in simple organisms and after a very long time matter got its conscious stage in the mind of man . And man's mind developed when hand's thumb was freed.Today's Homosapien Homosapien's cerebral cortex is thicker than primitive man . His intelligence level is very high due to interacting with electronic machines. Moreover, disabled person also perceives with his senses as a man , who is not blind but in a pitch dark room finds his way, as there is a frame of reference @Muthana Makki Mohammedali

Poets see essence of things.

Mariam Chkhartishvili , yes they do. There is still an ambivalent attitude towards poets in some circles that accuses them of insanity or of having untrustworthy opinions!

Poets work in the soft and grey space between "seeing things" and seeing their "essence"!

Muthana Makki Mohammedali,please pray for my real maternal aunt, before the sanctuary of Imam Hussain, as she is admitted in Intensive Care Unit at a local hospital in Multan. Though it is a digression from the discussion, but poets above all love every one, which is also the essence of poetry@Muthana Makki Mohammedali

I will, Mubasher Mahdi . Sorry for your pain. I'll pray for her soonest recovery.