Dear Ramachandra

Poverty is a condition in which lack access to health services , education , security and minimal financial resources by individuals of certain social groups which impairs or prevents the livelihoods of those

Ignorant , is someone who does not know " , " one who has no knowledge of something " , is" who is unaware , "etc. : . " Ignorance is not knowing , not wanting to know or ignore the proven scientific knowledge and proven by scientific methods and by logic.

The dominant patterns of production and consumption are causing environmental devastation, the depletion of resources, and a massive extinction of species . Communities are being undermined . The benefits of development are not shared equitably and the gap between rich and poor is widening . Injustice , poverty , ignorance, and violent conflict are widespread and the cause of great suffering . An unprecedented rise in human population has overburdened ecological and social systems . The foundations of global security are threatened . These trends are perilous -but not inevitable .

We must realize that when basic needs have been met, human development is primarily about being more, not having more .

" There is nothing more terrible than ignorance " ( Goethe )

Mohtaram Mohan Jee,

I believe danger to the nature comes from our indifference and not from poverty. I have seen tribal communities living on the dividends of natural resources and not off of them. They believe that what is there do not belong to them but rather belongs to their future generations. When we loose this psychological sense of ownership and consider ourselves out of that particular environment, we tend not to care about it. This phenomenon is not bound to only poor communities. In order to solve any of sustainability problem, solution must consider its external context and stakeholders concerns. An exported solution will never work....

Hi Ramachandra,

According to my personal opinion, poverty leads to ignorance and ignorance is a danger for everything humanity undertakes. Hence by simple but logical deduction, poverty is dangerous for nature!

Cheers,

Frank

The answer is no. Poverty is a state of economic need, not necessarily linked to lack of sensibility, responsibility or decency. In fact, the opposite state (opulence) is most often conducive to wholesale destruction of nature. Even with an equivalent level of respect for nature, a human on a four-wheel drive can easily do far more harm in a weekend than a whole family moving on foot or with a donkey during months. Ignorance is not synonymous to idiiocy or malevolence, and knowledge alone will not bring happiness or justice. This was thoroughly demonstrated by well-educated Nazi officers. If we want to help nature, we have to ask people directly living in it.

Dear Ramachandra

Poverty is a condition in which lack access to health services , education , security and minimal financial resources by individuals of certain social groups which impairs or prevents the livelihoods of those

Ignorant , is someone who does not know " , " one who has no knowledge of something " , is" who is unaware , "etc. : . " Ignorance is not knowing , not wanting to know or ignore the proven scientific knowledge and proven by scientific methods and by logic.

The dominant patterns of production and consumption are causing environmental devastation, the depletion of resources, and a massive extinction of species . Communities are being undermined . The benefits of development are not shared equitably and the gap between rich and poor is widening . Injustice , poverty , ignorance, and violent conflict are widespread and the cause of great suffering . An unprecedented rise in human population has overburdened ecological and social systems . The foundations of global security are threatened . These trends are perilous -but not inevitable .

We must realize that when basic needs have been met, human development is primarily about being more, not having more .

" There is nothing more terrible than ignorance " ( Goethe )

Yes , I agree to it. To save the nature , it is the responsibility of governors to provide alternative to full fill their basic needs. But it should be in mind that only poverty is not responsible for harm to nature but industrial developments are also contributor. Industrialization disturb the nature of sure, it is required to balance that destruction. Carbon trading is an example although not implemented well due to greed factor

We can not talk to a person about culture and environment while he is starving and suffer from hunger. I believe that poverty increase the probability and the potential of environmental problems. Poor people do not listen to the experts who avoid others from consuming natural resources. They want to escape from hunger and feed themselves appropriately.

Dear All,

I think Frank and Nelson are right. Ignorance as a consequence of poverty is dangerous for nature. Not only rich and greedy people are perilous. Ignorant poor people reproduce themselves which may be catastrophic because ignorance is reproduced as well.

Hi,

I believe that ignorance is the chief danger.Dr Elias defined ignorance well and it is the absence of the concept of knowledge be rich or poor that is harmful.I agree with Dr Qazi that some poor societies do care. So I guess that it is ignorance not being poor that endanger nature.

I' m afraid poverty and damage to the environment are inextricably linked. There are a number of examples that demonstrate that poorer communities result in resource stripping just to survive or pay off debts (e.g., Nepal and Bangladesh are suffering from devastating floods which have been caused by large-scale deforestation). In essence this a vicious circle as poorer communities are most affected by this decline since they are most directly reliant on ecosystem services for their well-being. Environmental awareness can be increased through well constructed educational programs, but again education is linked to income. In short, the root cause of many a trouble in this world is poverty, alleviating will result at increased environmental awareness and ecosystem and resource protection.

@ Nikolaos Charisiou,

So deforestation is caused by poor people logging and cutting down the trees and it had nothing to do with big business maximizing its gains in timber industry?

In case of Bangladesh, occupation by foreign powers such as British and West Pakistan's elite who had no psychological sense of ownership to land but they believed they had inherent right on the resources, had nothing to do with deforestation? Industrialization and industrialist had no role?

By answering these questions in depth will give us the true nature of the causes of the problem. Poor people survival actions are the effects of previous policies of educated, wealthy elite who did not regard any local needs, bribed the officials (educated bureaucrats) to maximized their gains.

@Shami Qazi

I think that you have slightly missed my point. My argument is that poorer communities can put pressure on natural resources simply because they have no alternative. However I do not blame the poor for the environmental problems of this world. On the contrary, in most cases, it is the poorer communities that suffer from the effects of environmental degradation as they lack the means to protect themselves.

Just entered this thread. I´ve some problems with the term ignorance. Ignorance is missing knowledge. But you must specify "ignorance with respect to a certain behaviour or circumstance".

I´m deeply convinced that the strange people who destroy primeval forests only in order to do farming to produce bio fuel instead food are not uneducated, they are not ignorant. They are just focused on earning easy money and don´t care the consequences of their job. These people are not poor, they are silly but not ignorant.

So either poverty nor ignorance are dangereous, the missing interest in nature and the consequences of the own acting is the danger for nature.

I really agree with Nelson Elias

I agree with your clear conclusions, Hanno. The missing interest in nature looks to me too, for basic problem and danger for nature.

Dear Hanno,

It would be good to know why forest destroying people cut out primeval woods? If they do it because of lack of knowledge, they must be ignorant. If they do it in order to get more money, they are greedy at their own level. I note the missing interest is because of lack of knowledge and imagination. Right, we can add irresponsibility too. But irresponsibility is a consequence of ignorance.

Dear Nicolaus and Shamy,

This discussion should not be a sympathy voting. Everybody knows which countries have destroying the environment. We should only answer the question: Does poverty and ignorance contribute to a danger for nature? Yes, I think both do. Unfortunately, there are facts and opinions! Certainly, one can assess which states commit the gravest sins against nature. Have a look at the Red List!

@András Bozsik ,

May be I have not articulated my point in a better way, I am not asking for sympathy vote but rather trying to present an argument that poverty is not the main cause here. Main cause is greed, indifference and insatiable appetite of developed world to consume greater number of resources. For example, the demand for ivory is not in poorer communities but in the rich countries, people living in sub-Sahara desert do not kill elephants for ivory but for rather monitory value. So in this case I do not see the poor people of Africa endangering the wildlife but rather demand from the rich nations is the driving force.

In order to solves these problems we need to dig deep down and find the root causes of these problems. The way I approach this given problem, I do not see poor people being the main culprit and contributor.

Journalist Robert Neuwirth [http://squattercity.blogspot.it/, or "The human face of slums: "http://www.sgiquarterly.org/feature2007Apr-4.html"] argues that in slums people is going to evolve a new kind of social anti-consumerism / genetic-efficient organization. At the fulcrum of his arguments, you could find a pure logic dependent output, so that the rational archetypes of the "organized" [and rich] societies, intrinsically produce danger garbage [that, in physics I could define as inefficiency], while slummers recover the troubles brought on by those systems that would seem normal, rational and orderly.

Maybe Shami's perspective deserves more esteem.

—g

A poor goat herdsman in the Sahel, will feed its goats on the last trees and plants remaining in his living area, when all other resources have disappeared or have been destroyed by drought and (goat) grazing. Is this greed? No it is not. Is this a lack on interest in nature? Not is not. It is ignorance typical for people living in a survival mode. Under those conditions even procreation declines and ultimately collapses by enormous child death rates.

People who are living in a survival mode are the poorest on this globe. Hence they don't even think of changing their way of life. Why? They are ignorant about the strategies to develop to get out of this vicious circle. In the country I live in (which is a developed country) this type of poor people exist as well. We call them 'generation poors', living in extreme poverty from one generation to the other, and they also live in a survival mode, just lik the Sahel goat herdsmen. They are members of nothing, They don't have the means to be active in emancipating movements, except when they get help from outside their survival niche.

But forget about this help in the Sahel. These people are on their own. Hence they are utterly ignorant, lack social contacts and hence, destroy the last existing living vegetation, especially with herds of goats which destroy the rooting system of the poor vegetation as well. These people don't know that! Though they see it, they don't know how to estimate the impact of goat grazing on vegetation on dry and poor soils. Hence, what remains is a man-made desert and ultimately famine.

Please don't misunderstand me, I have no grudge against poor and ingorant folks, But as it happens, in survival mode, poverty and ignorance just always shake hands. If we don't see this folks, we condemn the Sahel herdsmen and -women to eternal poverty and famine, Hell so to say. For ever.

Thank you so much for your understanding,

Frank

Dear Shami Qazi,

I think everybody should solve his/her own troubles locally according to his/her knowledge and responsibility. If the person has got not sufficient knowledge, it is partly his/her mistake. Being poor cannot absolve anybody from a responsibility.

Dear Giuseppe,

I know personally many people living in a slum culture. As I could observe they have evolved no social anti-consumerism even they produce the most waste material and garbage and live practically without responsibility and in ignorance. I stress being poor cannot be a discharge. Certainly, you can say, it is not me who drives the goats and collects the garbage.

My respected cohort gave an example of goat herder from Sahel area and how his survival instincts lead to ignorance and ultimate danger to nature. But I would like to present a counter argument, western Sahel area (Senegal, Mali, and Burkina Faso) were colonial territories of France for a long time. These area resources included Gold and Platinum. Having all these riches why a goat herder is still roaming the depth and breadth of this land? Is it ignorance and lack of knowledge or is it the western world and France in particular, exploitation?

@ Andras,

You are 100% right, solution has to be indigenous and based on the internal and external context of given community. No one is arguing that or giving a free pass to poor here. My whole argument is based on the premises of finding out what WE (citizens of developed world) are doing or did wrong before we point fingers at the poor developing countries.

@ Manjunatha,

We have been circling around the topic and it is my inability to convey my point of view in a better way. Thank you for expressing so eloquently what I have been trying to convey.

A wise man said: "if poverty is a man I would have fought him"; and "If I debate a wise man I would win but I debate an ignorant I would definitely lose!".

I read through this thread, many point of view expressed in different manners, I see that the main outcome is agreement rather than increasing the gap. The main problems around the globe are poverty and illiteracy because the consequence of both is simply increasing conflicts and disasters which were identified in different styles by my colleagues here.

We do carry a responsibility to make this world better as much as we can, we do have a responsibility to eradicate poverty and ignorance but for that purpose we need strategies and long term solutions. Do we have these, not really for the simple fact that different nations have different agendas in the way they deal with natural resources. Highly developed countries are different in the way they support global efforts and many developing countries may raise concern better than the developed ones.

The original question is a strong question that necessitates analysis from many different sides including social, economic, technological, political, etc...

Poverty & Ignorance-->"One source of poor peoples livelihood comes from firewood selling, indirectly loss of forest, which bring the danger to nature".

I must humbly register my opposition to this explanation.

Poor people doesn't fell green trees and sell them to be used as firewood. They collect dried, fallen/dead logs of trees for house hold purposes, if little more to be earned they sell in local market (Indian context) for an extra income.

Loss of forest is caused by illegal mining/ development programmes by Govt/multinational companies willing to utilize (and (or) exploit) the natural resources of a country/state.

In my opinion poor people (poverty stricken) are more concerned about nature, because they (we) have learned to live with forest. While the people above that poverty line (Corporates) are most ignorant of long term consequences of destroying nature, but more concerned about short term profits in the name of development.

Combat poverty and ignorance always has several positive consequences. One would be a lower risk to nature.

Environmental degradation and human degradation are two sides of the same coin. A society which wastes its resources, will also waste its people.

This is a very complex issue. Poverty and ignorance are per se high risk conditions for several diseases and social problems. However, for me it is not clear if both conditions are directly related to a danger for nature.

For example, I know of a case in Lebanon where the price of fuel oil went high for several poor families who used fuel oil based warmer in their house. So, they opted to go for cheaper fuel by going to a near forest and cut trees (away from the eye of the government) then chopped the wood into pieces using them after substituting their warmer fuel base to wood base. So poverty pushed people to ignore local law against random cutting of trees (environmental and legal impact) and moreover selling the extras in nearby villages making money which became a motivation to start a vicious circle repeating itself through winter.

Dear All,

We are all placed with the same highlighting points. Just like the rhyme - "here we go round the mulberry bush...., mulberry bush"...., and the adage - who's going to bell the cat.

Each and everyone are responsible for the cause of poverty (of forest, poor, of all natural resources) and ignorance.

See the eg:

Simply blame the industrialist who manufactures food to clothing to luxury (of all anthropogenic interest) for all of who use it; either of us neither 'naked' nor 'fasting'. When you wake up in the morning the bed, the cot, the floor, the accessories and a cup of hot beverage in the form of sugar, tea, coffee all are part and parcel of the disaster and leading to ecological poverty.

Then the terms innocence and ignorance; the former no one is innocence and no one is ignorant. Either all are both of it or not of it.

To look at the aspects of POVERTY we'll have to get back to my country India which earlier included Pakistan, SriLanka, Bangladesh and other Asian small countries. Way back in 16th century there was no poverty and no innocence or ignorance. As per the history records of Hu en Ztang. Again even during British Era as per the words of Lord Macule - North to South, East to West who travelled and noted and alerted the Queen of England that in India there is no poverty and there is no single poor; and continued to say that if it is to be brought under British Rule the present education, work and integrated work activities to be disrupted.

So India is facing its poverty since 200 years and not before that. So our genes are not poverty-stricken but forgotten in the hands of techno-political jargon. Be it medical, pharmaceuticals, education, food, agriculture and all sectors.

In India presently for lack of POST HARVEST TECHNOLOGY we are losing 40% of the crop and food for fungal infestation and rodent menace and from the mill owners (with huge monopoly).

Coming to forest, I can provide following concepts:

India still holds 30% of barren lands or grazing lands and enormous mined areas. Such areas must be mandatorily to be distributed to the workforce (of Govt and private groups) under Co-Operative Sector to harness forest from their pocket money.

Coming to poorer families:

Educate them firstly not by saying ENVIRONMENT OR DISASTERS. If all of us were to be in their place we would not have listened to them. We listen and argue because we are full-bellied and have surplus for our grand children (in terms of health, wealth and education).

So educate them by ASSURING that their BASIC NEEDS (food, shelter, clothing and minimum life necessities ) are taken care of by all of the educated and earning members of entire INDIANS. The forest maintenance, reforestation ( in the barren lands), and the coastal lines and all other vulnerable (for natural and man-made disasters) to be improved BASED ON INNOVATIVE, INDEGENOUS LOW-COST TECHNLOGIES SUITABLE FOR INDIA AND CARING OUR OWN EARLIER LANDS OF NEIGHBOURING COUNTIRES. This way by creating jobs UNDER COTTAGE, SMALL AND MEDIUM SCALE INDUSTRIAL SECTORS with the CONTROL THROGH CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES ALL OF US ARE protecting, educating, maintaining and uplifting every aspect WITHOUT THE HINDERANCES AND NUISANCES OF OUR DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS.

India presently suffers in the hands of techno-political issues.

Coming to integrated farming system (agri, animal husbandry):

Again under Co-Operative banner all are included wherein, the elite and well-to-do and the earning community part take in Co-Operative membership and provide jobs for the presently aged group (25 - 65) of poor community who cannot go for Schools and minimal/higher education; however, children of poorer community of less than 25 years can be passed through ITI and Diploma courses of all sectors to look after country's business at all angles.

ALL THESE APPEAR TO BE UTOPIAN CONCEPTS BUT ARE workable still in all of the Asian poor countries (especially wherever European Colonization have caused catastrophe).

Well put Sunitha. Nice and simple. However, is there enough empathy towards people's problems like you mentioned?

@Sunnitha,

Very well put. Thank you

There are ethnic groups that do not affect the environment or the impact is very low in comparison with industrialization which displaces and destroy forests, jungles, etc.

@ Hussin Hejase,

Yes there is enough empathy in the developing Asian countries at least India and its neighbors; very simply explicable. All percentage of Indians who come under lower middle class, mid - middle class and higher middle class are the working force of India (not of the elite, royally inherited families and poor /daily wages families). These working force are waiting to see a straight forward political/ruling leader for immense changes from the grass root level.

We still hold sufficient basic resources like rain (even with dwindling rain pattern and shift in rain pattern), , abundant sunlight, abundant land and abundant work force at all levels.

What we need is to re-think or modulate in the agriculture and agri-business sectors.

1) Instead of importing chemicals for fertilizers we can partly rely on urban wet/biodegradable garbage (of 60%) to convert into humus - a natural manure. and partly rely on animal husbandry of large (cattle) and small animals (sheep, goat, rabbit, fowl).

2) To improve the quality of silk, cotton and wool and to use the raw material for product development rather than export raw forms.

3) To go in for soil-less olericulture (vegetables) by adopting hydroponics and aeroponics. India still has 75% farmers of marginal and small scale land holders who are the targets of getting transformed into NEXTGEN POVERTY-STRICKEN FAMILIES. Because they are not affordable of the inputs to reap the crop and even with the bumper crop the iNDIAN AGRICULTURE MARKET SET UP IS WORST WITH A MIDDLEMEN MONOPOLY.

4) Cattle breeding is worst hit. Enjoy of world's largest number of population but yet milching cows capacity is av. less than 5 litres and the cows consumption when it comes to cattle feed is affordable . The family with 1 - 3 cows are always under loss. Whole of India has such families rearing and milking WHO ARE

OUR NEXT GEN POVERTY STRICKEN FAMILIES.

5) Cottage industries were luxury ONCE UPON A TIME with an array of raw materials that entered into varied products. At varied stages every waste material became a raw material. There was counter balance and less inputs more man power and sufficiency in basic necessities.

Even to this day be it Rural or Urban or Peri-Urban job opportunities are aplenty; but struck under daily wages category of say Rs. 360 for male and Rs. 150 for female. What a pathetic situation?! Every medicine, every clothing and every food item is still not affordable by the lower and mid-middle class then how can it be survival factor for daily wages.

As wood selling is their way of money earning definitely it affects nature. But along with poverty the prime fact which causes the loss of valued resources is the illiteracy and unawareness of the people. They considered the water, wood etc. as cheap and readily available resources. This cheap consideration drastically hampers the natural resources usage and causes tremendous damage.

Agree with you Ghose, simply look at the most powerful nations around and their stance towards the environment (knowing that usually the elite support such actions).

All the agrarian countries still has TK people (traditionally knowledge-based communities) who needs to be identified and their protocol of integrated farming system needs to be implemented.

In the sectors Green, White and Blue Revolutions we are suffering exploitation rather than one square meal for the entire poverty-stricken families.

The country's people be it poor/rich all are under fed/over fed causing disrupted healthiness due to type of food we are consuming either under nutritious/over nutritious. Illness/disorder/diseases of physiological variability takes higher cost in terms of diabetes/B.P Just way back in 1970's these disorders were certified of richer and richest classes; but of now even poverty-stricken families suffer from diabetes. Mainly due to the food of unbalanced or eaten again and again mono diets.

Take the example of rice. Much of the Indian lands of paddy cultivation comes under irrigated channels that caused dry areas (ecologically) into wet lands and actual route of river water diverted in destruction of forest and natural agri lands. By doing so the minimal consumption of rice/day has shot up to 3 meals/day having being eaten rice every time. Our Govt Ration Card holders today are given poorly grown and infested rice either free/subsidized rates. These primary disturbances and unnatural tendencies are not taken care of.

Even under Indian circumstances our Govt can still supply food for subsidized or free flow with balanced contents. Say, cereals + oil seeds + pulses + jaggery (not sugar) + rock salt (not chemical salt) and coupons for vegetables (of seasonal grown) and fruits (seasonal grown). Even to these era, we can plan our cropping pattern under rain-fed conditions and harness rainwater in the agrilands. We need to grow conventional traditional crops rather than imported seeds or capitalized seeds wherein every time we need not buy seeds for sowing.

We still have native breeds of cows and buffalo that has to be given a chance; not of inbred or Hostein/Jersy who needs to t be fed enormously. With more of milk and milk products flooded in the country is causing more disturbance in the body by added sugar. We still have an array of simple balanced sweets preparable at home which needs to be given as healthy snacks for poor and rich.

The country can survive on ferrous and non-ferrous metals by re-use, recycle; must curb at once the mining activities. Metal product can be exported not the raw ore.

Dear Sunitha

You have an excellent and broad view of the happenings in India, are government officials aware of the information you provided here, is there a national plan to support development activities and projects to sustain the people's needs?

I do agree with you that when comparing the damage between the rich class doings and the poor class doings, the rich are causing more long term damages.

Dear Hussin Hejase,

All of our govt officials are NOT AWARE OF NEITHER OF THE PAST NOR PRESENT OR FUTURE TRENDS. some percentage of the IAS cadre bureaucrats are NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE IN THE SUBJECTS OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, because most of them heir their background in the OLD PATTERN OF SOCIAL STUDIES (that includes history, economics, political science, etc). For the sake of IAS exam, to get through, majority opt for HISTORY (which is a parrot talk).

The present education system up to Grade 10 (by then the students shall enter to 15-16 years of age), throughout India has very good study subjects especially Social Sciences, environmental sciences and practical approach science sub subjects. But what we REQUIRE IS HIGHLY QUALIFIED YOUNGER GENERATION TEACHERS WITH-SCIENTIFIC-REFORMER-KIND-OF.

Education system has been well established (under the greed rather than knowledge). Private institutions MONOPOLIZES WHEN IT COMES TO PAYMENT OF TEACHERS. Every teacher of the country needs teacher-citizenship with UNIFORMITY IN PAY SCALE BE IT GOVT AND/OR PRIVATE. Every teacher must under go workshops and seminars and need to take up competitive exams once in 5 years to get updated.

Still govt. schools are not-upto- the-mark. many Govt. schools still lack desktop computers and learn the subject by blind-fold. Mid-day meals have been ordinarily treated with less nutrition (not even semi-balanced diet).

60% of the farming community children still go to Govt. schools who can neither enter to professional courses (due to less knowledge and capabilities ) nor their families affordable of higher costs involved. SUCH CHILDREN ARE OUR NEXT-GEN POVERTY-STRICKEN FAMILIES.

our farming community children need Diploma Courses of an array of areas (to make master mechanics of both agriculture, agri-business and mechanical lines..

Of the 75% of the marginal and small scale farmers (say a percent of 30) have been entering/entered cities (metropolitan) as daily wage workers (construction activities); such families neither hold citizenship nor enjoying subsidized food; their children are not sent to schools because city does not hold suffiencent number of govt. schools. And they are our NOMADICS and THEIR CHILDREN ARE OUR NEXT-GEN POVERTY-STRICKEN FAMILIES.

country's 20-30% of the younger generations (18 - 45years) neither work nor study nor of any help to the NATION; but are of much use to the POLITICIANS who involve in unaccountable political activities; such families shall be doubled up in the next 20 years.

THERE IS NO COMPULSORY MANDATORY RULE FOR THE WORKING . NUMBERS IN THE FAMILIES and their whereabouts. Compulsory GRADE 10 MARKS CARDS AND SCHOOL CERTIFICATES MUST BE MADE MANDATORY TO REMAIN AS INDIAN CITIZENS.

About 15%% of the young school-dropouts are in the towns and cities who work as daily wagers and are multitasked and multivalued but are not paid for their works in must and should rule. These generations are OUR NEXT-GEN POVERTY-STRICKEN FAMILIES. Such children must hold multi-task and protective licence holders with their payments to go into banks which must be accountable. This way they getting bullied or less paid/not paid and corruptions will be controlled.

Sunitha, this is astonishing and intersects with another thread where also professionals from India are highly concerned to what solutions are there to start the upbringing of a community of knowledge who can help the country in the next years to come.

Poverty can lead to damage to nature, but it is often a little damage dictated by necessity. The real damage is caused by environmental toxins and the misuse of natural resources. These things things are not dictated by poverty but by the interest.

I agree with you Ierardo about the issue of misuse of natural resources. Our colleagues on this thread provided so many examples about the relation between Poverty and Nature, as well as between Ignorance and Nature. Many of the cases relate to the intention to misuse which is a premeditated act to cause damage.

Manjunatha, what a coincidence, I was having a similar conversation yesterday about the same topic especially when we were discussing the latest tragedy in the Hemalaya and the death of so many guides. However, the triggering point was my colleagues question: what one feels if he/she conquers a mountain?

Since I have lived similar experiences, my response was feeling nearest to our creator. Having our senses so sensitive that one can hear the insects moving around, or the whisper of the wind, and so on...

Therefore, I agree with you that getting detached from nature makes people insensitive to the nature needs and consequently more abusive.

It is very true. We are most attached to men (I mean colleagues/relatives),materials (lifeless), minds (just to know what's happening in other's mind - mostly for survival and to avoid clutters) all of attachment. Instead unattached and getting to merge with nature and interpreting observations takes us to higher conscious level; and when some percentage of us in tune with similar consciousness we shall see huge changes happening (not by you and me but by the amass).

This I learnt happening in my country since history especially 12th century on wards.. I can give one recent issue. In Bangalore (I stay 35 km away, by owning 5 acres land to live among village and engaged in farm activities) there has been mishandling of mixed garbage. Including me there we more than 50 organizations came forward to buy the mixed garbage (rather Govt, pay for its lift, transportation and landfill), for , mixed garbage shown profitable business by proving step-by-step implementations. It became a wonder that now clearance are happening better from the govt. side, because, otherwise it would lose its identity.

Another great happening since 20 years. That is use of fertilizers (inorganic). As our country with its small-scale farmers were dependent completely on chemical fertilizers (neglecting farm yard manure) and realized their harmfulness and were not affordable for fertilizers and later balanced their soil nutrients in a cost effective way that happened through their word of mouth advertisements. Today vegetable growers (Olerieculturists in India) are all still holding 1/4 acre to less than 8 acres under cultivation per family, and have become self-masters in integrated approaches. However, rich people lands are mostly seen dwindled agriculture who are only 2-5% who still run behind agriculture universities for packages. Here again I respect the TK communities (traditionally inherited agriculturists of India).

So currently we all need to do observations, interpretations, and mass enrollments to enter into discussions just like the present one to develop eco-consciousness to eco-conscience to become eco-balancers to begin with by ourselves.

Sunitha, congratulations I believe your are doing a great service to your country and to your integrity as a researcher.

Dear Prof Hussin,

Thank you for nice words and appreciations and I'm towards it. I'll be going to Africa to begin with Tanzania (being with the wealthiest investors) to show huge changes in the fields of integrated agriculture, agri-business and poverty alleviation programs to make every country a bread-basket which is planned in step-by-step in the next 10 years by leaving my farms and my country and my children prusuing professional courses in India. And by the by my husband (an University friend) and from a traditionally agrarians are all merged in these activities; I'll be taking TK husband and wife combinations to implement integrated activities.

Best to you, and lucky Tanzania that will receive your expertise and services. One step at a time around the globe improves the humane status and consequently the nature surrounding.

Dear Sir (Manjunatha),

Thank you indeed.

I love to meet you and to enter to discussions being in Bangalore; I almost every day travel to Bangalore. And its required that you come to our one of the farm too.

You are most welcome Sir

Sunitha, I guess that after your experience in Tanzania, you should put together a set of case studies which reflect reality check lessons for all.

Of course poverty and ignorance are a disaster for nature and human kind

I don't think from my experience from India poverty and ignorance (if used in the sense of illiteracy/lack of education) lead to devastating impact on forest cover or vegetation. Instead, they preserve and conserve forest as heir livelihood depend on them. The forest cover in Himalayan Uttrakhand of India was saved during Chipko Revolution by poor and illiterate people, especially women who used to collect firewood from these forest. Story of rubber collectors in Brazil is the same. These are educated and wealthy people in the world who to earn more are plundering every natural capital of our Earth, not the poor.

I agree with Firoz Khan; again Chipko movement and Narmada Andolan has leaders Sunderlal Bahuguna and Medha Patkar. Such leaders are needed at every level and they must be included in the implementing and planning commission of the Parliament.

Dear Hussin,

Yes that is the life-time experiences our team is looking at. When software companies are doing such a flourishing scaling up why not a food commodity when every one are dependent on food.

Poverty and satisfying human needs do destroy nature. Cutting trees in forests, irrational use of water.. etc.contribute to disaster for nature.

Mahfuz,

It alright that destruction of forests and misuse of water contribute to disasters. Have ever you heard that a person fill up a well with garbage and waste from which the persons daily draws water. None except fools can destroy the source of their livelihood. Poor people living in or around forests collect fire wood from them to sell in the market, collect leaves to sell in market or making bidi (something like cigaret to smoke) take forage to feed their livestock, eat fruits from the forests and collect several fruits and barks for industrial use in a manner, the trees are not harmed.

This question of poverty and environmental degradation has been asked several times with malafide intention to shift blame of present state of environment to huge fast growing population. In 1970s, in America expenditure on treatment of ailments due to overeating was more than annual plan expenditure in India. It indicates how much a huge population eat and how much a small population eat. Majority of large population lives in a perpetual state of half-fed. It is magnitude of consumption not the number of poor people who are destructing environment.

Of course, Indra Gandhi once said, "Poverty is the greatest pollution". She did not mean poverty degraded environment, she meant like pollution, poverty makes survival difficult. In fact, natural pollution ( effluents [gases, waste water, solid waste) is spread by natural processes over local, regional and global level. While pollution of poverty is confined to the areas of poor realised in the form of lack of services, amenities and infrastructure either they don't have means to pay the bills or discriminated by the local government in the developing countries.

Dear Firoz Khan and Sunitha, your contribution to this thread is of utmost importance especially that the reality of poverty versus the environment is indeed not known to many. Indigenous communities are always very wise in the way they use and preserve natural resources, they consume what they need and make sure to replace whenever possible the source. I have seen many documentaries about it in south America but not in India. This is why I feel satisfied with the arguments provided by my dear colleagues mentioned above.

Dear Hussin,

You rightly said about the indigenous communities who are otherwise called TKs (traditionally knowledgeable) but these communities are going-to-be transformed (unless Indian Government follow strict rules and rewards) due to current trends of politics, GOD, castism, confused education etc.,

As being with the village community since year 2000 I would like to expose my observations with another dimension:

First thing I am noticing since year 2000 is that the farmers be it rich or poor; be it higher community or lower community all are sailing in the same boat. The rich with surplus debts and poor either self debts or cheated by the higher groups or their own groups.

All most all claim the subsidies and money and wait for the ruling party to be dissolved so that the new party in ruling will clear their debts without repay. Many a times they obtain subsidy but spent it on feeding the relatives during their personal village god-ceremonies. For ex: govt of Horticulture provide subsidy for the banana crop. Which is surplus amount. And one can become rich with at least 2 meals a day by growing 3 - 4 successive crops.(which we have shown 7-8 crops even with tissue culture propagated). Most of them claim money and do planting just for the sake of photographs as proof and until the officers visit the plants, then drop the crop, once the money is realized.

Many utilize the funds offered for horticulutre/agriculture/sericulture for recreation like birthday, marriage, traditional festivals, personal-god festivals. And A - Z (all of the rich, poor and daily wages) spend money on clothing, decorations and festival ceremonies in a Kingly style all activities on debt. Much of the money will be spent for animal flesh and drinks. Apart from this there are weekly food ceremonies. The rich and the poor alike are lost their property due to debts and the money earned by sell of land are either utilized for lavishing or given for low income profits and lost later so in a few years they are daily wages neither their children know agriculture practices nor they are intend to toil in the sun.

The govt. schools although sound good but at higher education neither the coaching is perfect nor the free enrollment and are jobless at the age of 18+. These both girls and boys have lost touch of the agriculture. many boys enroll as real estate agents and some have found jobs in small units and yet some have become thieves as our village is 45km from Bangalore, Karnataka, India.

all in all farmers of big and small; daily wages and the rest are very happy about our farming. We do not perform any festivals and do not participate in any of their village or personal god fairs and ceremonies. They do not want to be this way and call us anti-social. many preach and teach us politics. many are in line with the govt. They are willfully waiting for the by-elections and the petty cashes they earn during campaigning. that's it.

SO MY SUGGESTIONS ARE:

1. Every family must out rule the religion and god-ceremonies and the money wasted on festivals, fairs and marriages.

2. Every family must be not be engaged in political activities. Politics means only voting. That's it. During political canvasing be it panchayat level or state level our farm women and men do not do their agricultural activates neither go for work. Many a times much of valuables are provided apart from money.

3. The alcoholism must be strictly controlled. On an av. every 20th house sells the low grade liquor.

4. Proper pricing must be fixed for the crops. Now the farming produce goes to the whole sale market and from their to the retailers. Instead of that every farming produce must be purchased by the Govt at their farms and a proper pricing must be given. For example the staple food Ragi (Elusine coracana) grown as rainfed crop fetches the farmer only Rs. 4.00 and in the retail market it is Rs.25.00 So Govt must buy the crop at Rs.12.50 so the poverty can be alleviated. And yet the govt must hold their money thro' bank deposits and monthly income can be provided for their bought crops. If this is done much of the recreational activities can be controlled.

So according to me in the present era all farmers are not innocents but ignorant. So also our ruling govts. So also our Agricultural research units. Most of the farmers in India come under small scale and marginal farmers who hold less than a hectare land and most of them under rainfed and some on irrigations. We claim to be the worlds 2nd largest vegetable growers. Much of the produce come from marginal farmers who are always in pathetic situation. They neither get any support from the govt or from the Agri. univeristies. Many of their techniques do not reach the farmers. Universities are meant for knowledge. Govt. Ruling is for politics. So in India there is scientific lobby and political lobby which do not do much to the farming and thus there is poorer community day by day at higher rate.

10-20% of the cleverer farmers with their intellectual earnings are giving high level education for their children and those never return to the lands.

Poverty could be a disaster for nature degradation especially in shanty towns where many chemical, human, industrial toxic wastes are abandon, it could be as well a heavy health human cost for the communauty. This is different from the way of life of indigenous communities who preserve nature as they need it and survive through it. The problem is same with ignorance, example ignorant people could destroy centenaries trees only because they need a larger sidewalk (in the region of my research institute, centenaries trees were destroyed just for the sake of larger sidewalks, now few rains are responsible of flows in the town!!))

Sunitha, your observations are very critical, however, how successful will your techniques be if you are portrayed as anti-social a fact that make you lose credibility in their point of view although you are working in their advantage?

Prof. Hussin,

we need 4-directional approaches:

1) to prove and to merge with universal consciousness through self conscious awareness. As we have quality works shown throgh our knowledgeable philosophers – at the world level, who can decipher the meaning of god and our duties. I want such personalities to make appearances among our village folks; otherwise what is the use of acquiring self-knowledge other than utilizable by the common man. I want elite philosophers to merge with for drastic realizations.

2) simple living (with right balanced nutrients) and planning 10 years ahead even with simple activities like home and accessories, marriage, family planning can go a long way. As we have quality banks (nationalized) who need to form accountable status; i want universities to part take in this, with giving students – of all faculties in general as one of the compulsory subject; otherwise what is the use of acquiring self-knowledge other than utilizable by the common man. I want elite professors to merge with for drastic realizations.

3) plan for sufficient clothing (in an economic and long duration worth clothing. As we have quality fabrics (of international grade) such showrooms are necessary to provide clothing (not free of cost) to prove durability and with every wash becomes a valuable wearing. So that spending on clothing once in every av. 3-4months can be out ruled; instead same money can be spent once in every 2-3 years. I want international investors of fabrics to part take in this massive transformations; otherwise what is the use of acquiring wealth that is creating inequality not shared with the common man. I want elite fabric companies to merge with for drastic realiations.

4) education with compulsory earnings (be it govt, entrepreneurial, social) must be the agenda with government funding. No priviatization of education. Common education for all. Based on pupil capabalities and interests the study plan must be decided by the age of 18years. I want international educationists and economists and scientists and investors to part take in this massive transformations; otherwise what is the use of acquiring knowledge, wealth and pride by the individuals that is creating inequality not shared with the common man. I want digniteries to merge with for drastic realiations.

I agree with Shafig. A hungry man is an angry man.

for the society .......

nature will go on it's own rule ......

A short question to Anadi,

do you mean nature looks for own ways, don´t mind humans, or do you think, humans are a part of nature, don´t mind their impact?

You bet they do!

Ignorance is a crime on its own, committed mostly  by neglicent societies and countries. Poverty is to be alleviated ASAP. We sometimes state that there is not time to waste, well that's true for sure. I would even add, it is certainly not the time to dump people as dirtbags either. Another crime against humanity!

The more and the sooner, the poor and ignorant become aware of what is coming to us in the next human generation on the tsunami of enevironmental and c!imate changes, the better. And ignorance in that respect is the worst killer I know of.

Alleviating ignorance requires huge investments in education and training, that's pretty clear and an absolute priority, which many countries don't take care of. They rather invest in war machinery. Can you dig that?

As we speak Ramachandra, your question is already obsolete. It's planing, investment and action we need and people that make it happen in tthe field of poverty alleviation and eductaion! And hence not in the logic of the war machine.

Act locally to make a  change globally.for once!

Cheers,

Frank

Act locally to make a change globally is a great idea

can you come forword with a real plan of work and how suggest methods

mohan

I would say that ignorance is a major contributor to danger for a nature than poverty.  South American aboriginal people are by modern standard very poor and yet they are more attune with their environment than let say Central American aboriginals like Mexico who are more modern (and more disparity between poor and rich, not to mention a booming population and industry).  Poverty uses nature because of necessity to survive not because of assimilation of wealth.  Canada and U.S. still cut down trees for housing construction etc., and yet those countries are wealthy by modern standards.  Danger to nature is a set of mentality in economists and others that natural resources are free or very cheap for exploitation and for accumulation of wealth  or to spur the economic growth.  Unfortunately, it is human nature (or is it natural everywhere) to assimilate source of power, wealth, strength as fast as possible with least amount of effort and expense regardless of the need.

I do not exactly know what adverse influences of illiteracy or ignorance (if used in the sense of impact of human action on environment) are on environment. But, I do believe the so-called illiterate or ignorant people are more conscious of social costs as well as environmental impact of their activities. They are not handed over education by their preceders (previous generation) but traditional knowledge or conventional wisdom. Therefore, they are highly sensitive to seasonal and climate change and work accordingly as they are highly efficient to sense risk, danger etc which science or technology cannot predict or people having knowledge and concentrated in centres of civilisation, i.e. cities and towns cannot sense. They know local nature and environment, and environment reaction to their actions better than scientists. Therefore, it is my firm conviction that ignorance is not cause of environmental degradation.

These are educated and wealthy people (using cars/motor bike to travel small distances) having a life style of wasteful consumption of material and energy which in most cases is due to ads on TVs etc. (generally referred as induced consumption). Since, illiterate and so-called ignorant people don’t have enough money to manage two square meals, how could they degrade environment? Since, they are mostly concentrated in low income tropical countries; they make their houses thatched houses of mud, sun-burnt bricks or other locally free available material except wood. Largely they do not need electricity for cooling or heating homes not only because they had to pay bills but also because they made their houses using designs perfected for local climate over centuries. However, in cities and towns, traditional houses are rapidly replaced by modern ferro-concrete buildings according to design suitable in temperate climes. This development is losing sense of community as it is found in small community settlements.

To this may be added, growth oriented mentality which as an infectious disease has taken over even developing countries that used to talk of development which could be achieved equitable distribution of income and investment in social and infrastructure. Their own resources with some aid are capable of this small investment. However, political class has forgotten social sector (education, health and necessary amenities and facilities) but talk of infrastructure that too for promotion of industrialisation that means higher and higher throughput and resulting pollution and degradation of conserve resources and landscape.

As far as poverty is concerned, I strongly oppose this perspective. I shall demonstrate from three cases that poor care and nurture rather destroy/pollute or degrade environment.

1. One example is Chipko Movement from my own county. When greedy capitalist saw an opportunity to make money from cutting forests in Himalayas and anyhow got permission to do so, these were poor women who used to collect dry fuel wood from these forests opposed the move and under leadership of Sunderlal Bhuguna started Chipko movement and endangering their lives (by hugging trees when capitalists came to cut trees) without help of those who pay lip service to their environment. Their plight was reported and these poor women succeeded in saving their forest.

2. Second example is that of struggle of rubber tappers in Arizonian forests. The Amazonian rubber tappers are the actors in a social movement that they started as a marginal group claiming land rights and ultimately succeeded in establishing rubber tapping reserves, an innovative use of land for conservation and sustainable development. Their case is important as an instance in which the interests of a marginal social group coincided with the general interests of the global society and the forest people strategies became paradigmatic in the later ecological resistance movements literature. Parts of Arizonian forest were given to foreign companies. They cleared allotted areas for timber. These empty areas were taken over by ranchers and they further encroached on forests, it was resisted by rubber tappers in 1980s. They wanted reforestation and conservation of the forests, so that this economically marginally could earn its meagre livelihood. But, with expanding livestock and high profits, ranchers were adamant on their encroaching (so-called land development) agendum. Trappers started save the forest movement. In this conflict between ranchers and rubber trappers, government was with development agenda. In this struggle, leader of rubber trappers’ leader Chico Mendes was murdered by ranchers. However, latter trappers won the struggle and many forests were declared as reserved. A forest park was also name after Chico Mendes.

3. Honduras is one of the poorest and least developed countries in Latin America. The economy has been based mostly on agriculture, and over a third of the labour force in 2001 was involved in this sector. About 16% of the land is arable, located mostly along the coastal plains. A large part of work force was involved in small scale shrimp farming along mangroves and traditional salt making to earn livelihood. In a country which had to serve debt a little less than its annual GDP, some MNCs saw opportunities to make money in fishing and industrial salt making there. Small ponds were get evacuated, mangroves cleared for large amount of water reaches into depressions. When due to over fishing and hurricanes the MNCs faced diminishing loss, they left leaving arable land destroyed due to salinity from exposure to seawater and in the absence of mangroves which used to protect the small shrimp ponds and traditional salt making sites, revival of past practices is impossible. Local stakeholders in traditional economy and environmentalists, MAP (mangroves restorations experts) protested without avail. A letter written to the government of Honduras got the response that there was never mangroves at the site mentioned. While a team of MAP after taking permission from the government to visit the site saw itself bulldozers clearing the little remaining mangroves.

In a thread on materialism and spiritualism on RG, one scholar asked what bad is in it to earn a little more. Dear Ramachandra please tell me does this "a little more" has a limit or includes whole Earth and resources of all accessible habitable and un-inhabitable planets. It reminds me Gandhiji who has predicted once for all times, “The world has enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed.”

@Brenda,

I am sorry I have not gone earlier through this scholarly and well-researched article on political ecology. It has further strengthened my viewpoint on this topic.

Human's cupidity and ignorance are the more dangerous for ecosystem equilibrium

When compared to selling of firewoods by poor and marginalised, usage of timber is more visible and prominent. Are you ready to build and live in a house with no wooden doors, windows, shelves and other means. If your answer is yes, sure you may chase the poor, ignorant and marginalised people. And can you spend some of your time to educate the above groups in your own ways that you believe will improve their lifestyle and so the health of a forest?