Some sites like Wikipedia state that male Lycaenids have reduced forelegs. However, standard works like Evans (1932: The identification of Indian butterflies) distinguish the family Lycaenidae on the basis of "forelegs perfect" and the absence of a subcostal vein on the hindwing. I can find no photograph of mating Lycaenidae where either partner has perceptibly reduced legs. Admittedly, my search has been restricted to Indian, Asian and West African species, so I wish to ask, which genera, if any, have males with reduced forelegs?
Dear Peter,
The Lycaenidae haven't reduce the forelegsbut you can see this reduction in the Nymphalidae.
Best regards.
Antonio
Peter,
References to male lycaenids with reduced forelegs generally consider the family RIodinidae as part of the greater Lycaenidae. The riodinid males do have modified forelegs, but most riodinid diversity is entirely neotropical. You should look at the Asian and African genera listed on WIki under Riodidindae. That should get you started. Hope this helps.
Phil
Dear Antonio and Philip, thank you for the replies. I suppose we should get the Wikipedia article on Lycaenidae modified accordingly, since people are being misled. Will ask someone to do so. Thank you!
Hi Peter, I just did the correction. Certainly there is room for further improvements of this Wikipedia article.
Martin
Peter
Phil was faster than me and gave you the answer. Anyway some real Lycaenidae (polyommatus, plebejus) have partly reduced/shorter claws for males.
I send you a picture of a male of Thisbe lycorias (Riodininae).
Concerning Nymphalidae both sexes have reduced forelegs.
Cheers from Luc
In very many "true" Lycaenidae (i.e. excluding the subfamily Riodininae) the males do have fused tarsomeres at the fore leg, i.e. the tarsal segments are fused and typically lack tarsal claws. You will find pertinent descriptions in work published by John Eliot (on the higher classification of the Lycaenidae), Robert Robbins (also available on ResearchGate) and many other such descriptions and accounts.
This dies NOT mean that the forelegs would not be used for locomotion. They are, in contrast to the condition in Nymphalidae, for example.
Well, not reduced forelegs but reduced tarsi. More appropriate would be ask which genera of Lycaenidae males do not have reduced tarsi. They are only few of them.
I have also to note to the absence of subcostal vein on the hind wing. This vein is generally lacking in Lycaenidae s.str. with the exception of Poritiinae and some Lipteniinae, but this character is so unvisible that nobody sane can use such character in any key
Dear Peter,
Spuler (1908, Die Schmetterlinge Europas I: 56) presents figures to this topics.
The term 'reduction' is not the best in this case, as the legs of male and female
are equal in length.
Best regards,
Jaan Viidalepp
Thank you very much for all the information. Martin made the change in Wiki, so no one will be misled now. I have always wondered what evolutionary advantage the reduction of the male tarsi endowed. However, that is another matter altogether..
Zdenek, thank you for the note on the subcostal vein on the hindwing... Brigadier Evans seems to have been one such "unsane" person, but then, he spent most of his life out in the midday sun and he wasn't even an Englishman! This and the "perfect legs" is all he could think of to distinguish the Lycaenidae in his family level key.
Lycaenids are a very interesting group, most males have reduced and often fused forelegs probably relating to mating behavior (just a hunch) the harvester group are actually predatory and is the only lepidoperan that i know of that is predatory. hope this assists you. Les
Thank you, Leslie. There are some Hawaiian Geometrids whose larvae are predatory, too.
Thank you! I have often been curious as to the rates of species and groups of Lepidoptera that are predatory, (other than canibalism in Helicopverpa Zea as an example). Also on Lycaenids i have mainly worked with North and Central American species so I would probably not be of much help on other areas of the world.
Luc, there was a bit of a debate about how rare the Moth Butterfly Liphyra brassolis actually is, since it seems the larvae figure on the village menu in parts of Thailand. Yes, it is rare in the northern part of its range in east India, but perhaps not so very rare in other parts. I don't think the aphids would agree with you that L. brassolis is the worst predator.. they would surely rank the Miletiinae much higher! Also, there is a small group of African and Asian Zygaenidae, called Himantopterus, that feed on termite larvae in termite nests. On a facebook forum called Butterflies of Singapore, there was a wonderful video of a Miletine larva catching and devouring a plant hopper adult!
In keys to North American butterflies, the following couplet entries appear:
"1. Front legs, especially of males reduced in size and not used for walking: claws if present not divided. . . . . 2
2. Front legs of female with two claws and used normally. . . . . Lycaenidae."
See for example: Jaques, H. E., original copyright 1947. How to Know the Insects. W. C. Brown Co. Publishers, Dubuque, Iowa.
Dear Peter
I just discover you answer !!
Well I remember some years ago I was searching for a sample of Liphyra for molecular work....and it was very difficult. You seem to be in the right zone, I heard that caterpillars are rather easy to find but that adults are very rare, is it really the case ???
You are right with Miletiinae....finally a lot of these Lycaenides are great predator including some Maculinea in Europe which are strictly predators and not parasite (M. arion is a predator while M. alcon is a parasite).
Who is this "facebook"? a friend of yours?.....bad joke....I don't like this site lol but surely I miss many information which is posted there.
Cheers from Luc
Dear Peter
I just discover you answer !!
Well I remember some years ago I was searching for a sample of Liphyra for molecular work....and it was very difficult. You seem to be in the right zone, I heard that caterpillars are rather easy to find but that adults are very rare, is it really the case ???
You are right with Miletiinae....finally a lot of these Lycaenides are great predator including some Maculinea in Europe which are strictly predators and not parasite (M. arion is a predator while M. alcon is a parasite).
Who is this "facebook"? a friend of yours?.....bad joke....I don't like this site lol but surely I miss many information which is posted there.
Cheers from Luc
Luc, thank you for your replies. There have been only two recent reports of Liphyra adults from India, so it is doubtless very rare here. The Thai report is here (http://lepidopteraresearchfoundation.org/journals/43/jrl_43_19_22.pdf). So that larvae, too, are rather rare. Sorry for stating that it is not rare in my earlier comment. Re Facebook, I know many people do not like it, but it serves as a very valuable resource where amateurs post photographs of butterflies and other insects, which has resulted in the re-discovery of several Indian butterflies recently, as well as several range extensions.. so, I think, used in moderation, it is useful! :)
Clifford, thank you very much for this reference. Is it really true, in your experience, that male North American Lycaenids have reduced forelegs? Photographs of mating Asian Lycaenids show that the legs of the males and females are practically indistinguishable. Perhaps this reference was at the time when the Riodinidae were included in the Lycaenidae?
Nice picture of a Brownwing (Miletus sp.) with small forelegs folded up against the body on this Butterflies of Singapore site.
https://butterflycircle.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-butterfly-legs.html?m=1
Reduced male forelegs in lycaenids also nicely illustrated in Fig. 3 in Braby, M. (2016). The complete field guide to butterflies of Australia. Csiro Publishing.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9wvbCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT22&lpg=PT22&dq=hesperiidae+forelegs&source=bl&ots=4xv2XeOhAI&sig=ACfU3U1G38Z2P6YCYPUNM0wO4pVfsbdM-g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5i6zJ17HoAhXbaRUIHZFYDSEQ6AEwGXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=hesperiidae%20forelegs&f=false
Errr, you might consider looking deeper into the systematic literature of say 10-20-30-50 years ago. That's a question that was answered a long time ago. I'm just saying.
Might want to consider the Riodinidae with respect to foreleg differences between sexes; the males in Neotropical Riodinidae generally have forelegs reduced and are not used for walking. So no, the Nymphalidae is not the only family where males have reduced forelegs. Older classifications had the Lycaenidae to include the subfamily Riodininae, perhaps therein lies some confusion..
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