Hi Steven,

If I were you, I would trust my own instincts and interact with my students on that basis rather than trying to fit them into some academic theory. Do you seriously believe that pigeonholing your students in accordance with someone's definition of "class" will make you a better teacher? Why do you want to "diagnose" their behaviors rather than find an effective way on your own to proactively deal with these behaviors even if that requires motivating the students to change harmful or unproductive behaviors?

More to the point, what if you accurately "classify" their behaviors; what do you plan to do with "the diagnosis" - use it as an excuse for why you are not teaching them (or they are not learning) anything? You obviously spent way too much time on your dissertation (especially on the literature review section) and also in grad school if you are now living your life and practicing your chosen profession in accordance with "Academic Pop Psychology." Steven, that stuff is just to prove you have the stamina to stick it out and earn your credentials. Once you have your professional license, you are expected to actually do some work on your own.

Please do everyone a favor and write your own book on teaching in multicultural -- racially, ethnically, culturally and religiously diverse -- classrooms. And, for heaven's sake base your book on GROUNDED theory from IN SITU fieldwork! Incidentally, if you are dealing with a minority population in your geographical area, you really better take this advice to heart because anything that has been written about minority peoples that purports to explain their behaviors on the basis of some definition of "class" -- a class that the author herself is not a full-fledged bona fide member of -- needs to be viewed with the hermeneutics of suspicion.

Gwen

Hi Steven,

I have taught at various times students from 5th through 12th grade. During these years I have seen the best and worst from students of all strata. One of the difficulties educators face is the daunting amount of literature in the field that is ethnically biased and views every so called minority as having social deficits as opposed to those of European extraction who are considered the norm. Consequently research is approached from the standpoint as these minorities need the help that I who am not a minority is qualified to give because of who I am. This reasoning is so pervasive that even ethnic "minorities" have bought into it and frame their work from the same perspective.

As an educator I refused to discuss my students with their teachers from the previous years. Every student came to me as they came. I treated them as if they were capable of all I demanded of them without reviewing their test scores and other assorted data crowding their cumulative folders. Usually at some point a colleague would inquire how a particular student was faring. Usually they would be astounded the student was different with me than with them.

You get what you expect and accept. If your expectations are high for all students, they will typically rise to the level of your expectations. If you accept foolishness, incomplete work, sloppiness, and poor behavior, that is what you will get. Students have complained to principals that I am too hard. I have engineers, teachers, attorneys, pastors, a pharmacist, physicians, and nurses who have all come back to thank me for pushing them to exceed their limits.

When I do look into class I find the students are what parents have trained and allowed them to be. I have purposefully engineered events where those who felt gifted and better than would fail. I have rigged assessments so that child who has never earned a passing grade on an assessment would find her/his name on the list of those who passed. In the first case students finally knew the pain of failure and in the latter the joy of success. I reward them with custom parchment certificates. As one high school junior told me "This is the first time I ever earned a certificate. My Momma gonna be proud of me. I'm gonna take this home and hang it on the wall."

My brother, allow the students to reveal to you who they are. Do not accept rank or station as reason of or excuse for, or to determine your treatment of the manner in which you teach students. Some of the greatest ills have been foisted upon the world by those who were of the upper classes. The greatest good has been done by many who were never expected to be successful by their teachers because of their humble origins. In our gardens we water all of our plants in the plot without discrimination. Do the same in your classroom.

---30--

Vernon, Amen!

Gwen

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Not quite the responses I was hoping for. Perhaps my original question was not clear.

There is literature pertaining to 'class'. The information I have read does not seem to align with what I am seeing. I therefore am interested in knowing if there are other definitions of class that do not pertain to wealth.

While I respect your thoughts and appreciate you responding, it did sound a little like a personal and professional attack. Especially the bit about pigeonholing students to be a better teacher and using a 'diagnosis' as an excuse for why I'm not teaching well.

Also, the analogy of watering all plants without discrimination I feel, is flawed. Not all plants thrive under same conditions, different soil, different amounts of shade, different levels of water are required. Just as the little flowers in my classroom.

Keeping both the native deciduous tree and the annual flower in top condition requires discrimination on the part of the gardener.

Back to theories of class, and continuing the gardening analogy, some gardeners are happy knowing something about plants, others want to know something about plants and the weather, and others like to understand soil ph as well. Ultimately, the topic of class may not be of use to me, however this is the area I am currently interested in understanding.

Did I say "pigeonholing"? I meant to say "profiling".

Gwen

An alternative explanation is that social class doesn't explain very much in terms of student achievement, aspirations or other educational outcomes. Its effect can be best described as modest. I have written a chapter about the magnitude of class effects no matter how its measured in a book that has been recently published.

Marks, G. N. (2014). Education, Social Background and Cognitive Ability: The Decline of the Social. London and New York: Routledge, Taylor & Francis Group.

http://www.amazon.com/Education-Social-Background-Cognitive-Ability/dp/0415842468

http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415842464/

Thanks for your contributions... well, if we are talking about the 21st century class - and I am talking from higher education experience - it is a workshop or even a mental yoga!

Regards

Theodora Issa

In re: Gary's Post,

Gary, you are certainly correct. As further proof that establishing someone’s class is superfluous to the pedagogical endeavor, I include a link to the first 10 minutes of my son Sven (Bachelor’s Degree- Harvard ’02; Master’s Degree- Columbia Teachers College ’04) teaching a Geometry Class at the Achievement First High School, which is located in the heart of the Black enclave in Hartford, Connecticut, U.S.A.:

< https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxfTT1q0mNUyZDE4b0tVSVVhUjg/edit?usp=sharing>

Gwen

I'm not sure what that means Theodora, can you elaborate?

Gary, I read the abstract to your a chapter with great interest and look forward to reading the book. However it seems that again, I have failed to explain myself clearly.

Thanks anyway

Gwen,

I watched the video, thank you,

The students are quiet, well behaved and engaged. The teacher is knowledgeable and responsive to the students. However I may need to assistance in understanding the point it established.

Steven,

The video establishes that the role of a teacher is to find and accept their students where they are and teach them from that locale (or from that "habitus" as you certainly prefer). Moreover, the video illustrates that even students that hail from mean circumstances will at least attempt to learn from a dedicated, devoted and directed teacher.

Steven, is teaching the vocation that you have chosen for your life's career? If so, I caution you that we all have a duty in life to "do no harm". Teachers who lack perception and sensitivity invariably do harm to their students. Please question what contribution you will actually make to teaching others when you need my help to understand that this 10-minute video potently illustrates that you are on the wrong track in devoting time to trying to validate Bourdieu's theories when this energy might, more effectively, be devoted to examining ways to "reach" your (as yet, "unclassified") students.

Gwen

I am trying not to take offence but I must say that your responses do a good impression of appearing as personal attacks.

I asked, and continue to ask, for pointers towards alternative and/or innovative theories of 'class' that do not relate to wealth or parents occupation. I wish to explore and understand the concept. If 'class' is a concept you find 'superfluous to the pedagogical endeavor' that's okay. However it remains a concept I wish to explore.

How you can make a link between my interest in theories of class and my ability as a teacher is beyond me. Your responses seem to question my dedication, perception, and general ability to make a meaningful contribution to my profession of the last 18 years based on my interest in furthering my own knowledge.

I agree that we must find and accept students where they are and teach them from there. Are you suggesting that 'finding' them is easy? Are you also seriously suggesting that one 10 minute video clip of one teacher teaching one group of students proves that all ANY student hailing from ANY circumstance requires to learn is a dedicated, devoted and directed teacher?

My students, ages 10 - 15, come from a range of backgrounds, characterized by high mobility, broken homes, domestic violence, criminality and all kinds of abuse. Their school history is a list of chronic truancy, anti-social and violent behaviors resulting in suspensions and exclusions and run ins with the justice system.

They are forced by the system to attend the center in which i work, nowhere else will take them and they know it.

Therefore, given the context in which i work, and plan to research, I found that the 10 mins video failed to potently illustrate the answers I seek.

And I am still seeking, anyone who can point me towards readings/information regarding class that does NOT involve economics or family wealth.

Thanks

I watched Gwendolyn's movie and likewise cannot see the point in relation to class. perhaps there is a cultural difference between USA and Australia that makes it invisible to Australians. It looked like a normal class, except that te studen ts were particularly well behaved and attentive. Was that the point? or was thepoint the subject matter? or was it that the teacher treated each person exacttly the same? or that they asked a person of colour a question that would normally only be asked of a perosn of a different class? Please explain!

Re: "My students, ages 10 - 15, come from a range of backgrounds, characterized by high mobility, broken homes, domestic violence, criminality and all kinds of abuse. Their school history is a list of chronic truancy, anti-social and violent behaviors resulting in suspensions and exclusions and run ins with the justice system. They are forced by the system to attend the center in which i work, nowhere else will take them and they know it. "

The above says it all, Steven. So, this is the reason you are in search of "readings/information regarding class that does NOT involve economics or family wealth." For what useful purpose?

Please review the 10-minute video again and take note of the positive messages on the blackboard and see also if you are able to detect a sense of trust between the students and their teacher, a lack of judgmental condemnation to failure, the absence of an "us" and "them" attitude in the classroom.

I fear that if all of this escapes you on a second viewing of the film I am wasting my time communicating with you as you are incapable of understanding that people sense when they are being "looked down upon" and that first trust must exist between a teacher and her students. The message must be sent that "I trust you to do your best and I want you to know that I am here to help you to accomplish whatever you can accomplish."

Incidentally, you can halt your search for "classifications" for your students since you have provided more than enough social stigma stereotypes in the paragraph I quoted above.

Gwen

To Mark,

The point of the video is the methodology. And it works if the students are humans, regardless of what society they live in.

Gwen

Gwen,

The reason and purpose I am in search of the information I originally asked for is because I am undertaking doctoral research examining the social factors that influence student decisions around formal education. I am not looking to perpetuate stereotypes but to understand my students, to understand how they are viewed by the system and society and how these views impact on their decisions. I am conducting this exploration on many fronts, currently it is through attempting to explore and understand the THEORIES pertaining to class. The theories I have read so far do NOT offer explanations that are useful in explaining my students decisions. I believe I made that clear in the beginning. Should I therefore throw out the concept of class or further explore it? Right or wrong I have chosen to further explore it. Isnt that the purpose of a literature review? How can I know for sure if I blindly ignore some aspects of the literature?

Somehow from my interest in this topic you have decided that I am insensitive and incapable of understanding people and that I have failed to grasp the basics of effective teaching. Is it because I asked the wrong question, or because I didn't understand your answers that makes me an ineffective teacher?

I watched the video, the whole 10 minutes, I saw the positive messages on board, I was able to gather that the teacher appeared knowledgeable in his field (you didn't need to add his qualifications and I am wondering why you felt the need too) and responsive to students. I did assume from that a level of trust between teacher and student. I saw the teachers use proxemics and the strong questioning techniques.

In short, I saw one group of students engaged in one activity at one point in time. .I'm sorry but the video on its own proves nothing. It certainly doesn't prove that a blanket debunking of a entire concept is warranted.

Sadly Gwen, I think you are right, people can sense when they are being looked down upon. I can sense it in your responses.

If you chose not to communicate further with me I accept your decision, unless you are actually aware of literature on class that may be useful in my search and then I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Steven in what context are defining class, unlike places such as the UK, the concept of social class has not been really defined. Here you are dealing with the perception of class or social status. Have you looked at SEIFA (ABS) to give an area feel to the idea of social stratification. The ABC comedy series upper lower Bogan does explore ideas dealing with class or the 7 up series deal with class or ideas about the social position of the person. Noam Chomsky has done considerable work on language and class. There are always Marx and Weber.

"There are always Marx and Weber" - I agree completely with yo. But there are also Bourdieu's research on social distinction in consuming cultural and daily life goods providing us a rather different approach of "collective behaviour"; there are also Cathala's researches on socio-styles and more recent works on lifestyles and consumer cultures showing us - indirectly - that the "social class" approach is only one possible approach of (more or less well) describing and understanding collective patterns and interactions.

Thanks Brian, I shall look into Weber and the ABS.

Peter, I have not read Cathala, can I get a reference to chase up. Thanks

Steven, sorry for my mistake: the name is Bernard Cathelat - and not Bernard Cathala!

His approach is extensively used in marketing research and application. Below a reference on the B&N portal ...

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/socio-lifestyles-marketing-bernard-cathelat/1000087570?ean=9781557388186

Bourdieu P. The forms of capital. In: Richardson J, editor. The Handbook of Theory: Research for the sociology of education New York: Greenwood press; 1986. p. 241-58.

The concept of 'cultural capital' might help. Doesn't involve wealth.

Good luck

Thanks Peter and Lorelei

The focus on Bourdieu and cultural capital theory is misguided. It is not a useful theory to explain socioeconomic inequalities in education because:

• The relationship between socioeconomic background and educational outcomes is very much weaker than presumed by Bourdieu and his acolytes.

• There is no strong relationship between high ses (however measured) and elite culture. Interest or participation in elite culture is no confined to the most privileged but occurs across the socioeconomic continuum (however measured).

• There are only weak (at best moderate) relationships between “cultural capital” and students’ educational outcomes. Most studies that find effects for cultural capital do not control for student ability, a much stronger influence on educational outcomes than measures of cultural capital.

• If cultural capital theory were true in that only the elite has the cultural know-how to succeed in education, educational expansion would increase educational inequalities, whereas socioeconomic inequalities in education have declined in almost all developed countries.

• There is little evidence that teachers treat students differently according to class background.

These and other arguments are detailed in my recently published book:

Marks, G. N. (2014). Education, Social Background and Cognitive Ability: The Decline of the Social. London and New York: Routledge, Taylor & Francis Group.

http://www.amazon.com/Education-Social-Background-Cognitive-Ability/dp/0415842468

http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415842464/

Intrigued By Gary's comment! i thought that there was a clear correlaion between low SES and educational outcomes as measured in PISA and NAPLAN in Australia. Certainly my 30 years of teaching experience in high schools would support a correlation.

Despite this i would proppse that a better model which is irrespective of class, but can be used to explain aany link with class (however it is defined) would be what I might cll a trajectory model. Any student, who begins formal schooling with a deficit (beit social, educational cultural, physical etc) that creates conditions for that student to be labelled as having a deficit as defined by school ie can't read, can't do maths etc, is expanded throughout school by virtue of the student's behavioural response to the labelling. This was demonstrated in the research into indigenous health and education by the West Australian Telethon Institute in about 2003, were indigenous students who began schooling with a deficit finished shooling with a greater deficit (compared with the norm). Back to the trajectory model. Beginning school with a deficit, sets up an educational trajectory to create that student's educational outcomes. Few, once on this trajectory, can overcome it, but depending on each student's social and psychological factors, which may or may not be linked to class factors, the student establises behaviours that are protective of their core needs. Those behaviours may or may not exacerbate the trajectory, but certainly influence it as was their intent, hence dispruptive, clowning, non compliant, antisocial behaviours, behaviours often linked directly to class can better be correlated with trajectory based on early schooling labelling, which in turn may be linked to class.

To clarify a little, I would describe class as a set of viewpoints about society based on the enacted culture of the family group, and I would define labelling as that which the student determines for themselves in response to outside influences such as report card results and comments, teacer behaviours, parent response to school communication, peer responses etc.

I think you have hit on the empirical reality that class doesn't explain student decisions/outcomes to the extent implied by many theories. The main predictor of outcomes student outcomes is cognitive ability and several non-cognitive attributes are involved such as motivation and personality (the big five). Socioeconomic background has a modest impact when not considering other influences and only a small effect when taking into account cognitive and non-cognitive attributes . Schools and teachers also come into it, but their independent effects are usually small. (There are exceptions) Theories that purport to explain student outcomes by class or socioeconomic background through culture or economic factors are not supported by the empirical literature so other explanations must be sought.

Hello All,

I had promised myself to not return to this question because I find so hurtful the posts referencing Bourdieu as a guide for Steven's misguided project. (I had decided to leave Steven alone once I learned that he is actually still in the process of compiling the Literature Section for his dissertation and, thus, has to come up with some half-baked theory to get past his dissertation advisor; I had incorrectly assumed that he already had his doctorate degree.) Nonetheless, I must make this one last post to set the record straight.

The video I posted of my son, Sven Carlsson, teaching the first 10 minutes of his Geometry Class at the Achievement First school in Hartford is directly on point in this string of responses because those students in the video are from the same backgrounds so dispassionately and callously described by Steven ("My students, ages 10 - 15, come from a range of backgrounds, characterized by high mobility, broken homes, domestic violence, criminality and all kinds of abuse. Their school history is a list of chronic truancy, anti-social and violent behaviors resulting in suspensions and exclusions and run ins with the justice system"). Indeed, the area where the school is located is so dangerous that the school has security guards on patrol weekdays and weekends. Despite these patrols, my son's car was vandalized during the first week that he parked in the school parking lot.

Notwithstanding this less than desirable Habitus (to borrow from Bourdieu), the students sitting in that classroom are on their way to college; they will not fail because the school is offering them an enclave of positive messages in the midst of a neighborhood of urban despair. Classrooms at Achievement First are not numbered, rather they are identified by the college that the teacher graduated from. Hence, my son's classroom is known as the "Harvard Class Room." On Fridays, teachers are allowed to "dress down" in Tee-shirts with the insignia of any college, rather than the otherwise mandatory dress shirt with tie for teachers. Sven has an assortment of Tee-shirts from Harvard College (attended by Sven and his wife, Sue), from Columbia University (where Sven earned a Master's Degree in "Teaching of the Gifted"), from Yale Law School (attended by Sue), from Dartmouth College (where Sue earned a Master's Degree in "Social Psychology"), from Harvard Law School and Yale Divinity School (both attended by me), and from Monmouth University (where I now teach). In other words, every Friday, Sven flashes a "new opportunity" and a "new alternative life trajectory" before his students.

Positive Messages are crucial. They are necessary to offset any negative messages conveyed by the labeling of a STATUS as Steven is attempting to do with his search for labels with which to classify his students. Indeed, "status crimes" have been declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court. It is too bad that our children (the future of humankind) cannot be protected from prosecution for their status. It is just so disheartening to know that this prosecution takes place in institutions of learning which should instead be sending positive messages. Alas, these institutions are run by academic theorists for the most part, rather than by dedicated educators.

This sorry state of affairs is not something new, I myself am a product of South Central Los Angeles and the mean social circumstances that prevail in such areas. In the Los Angeles City School System at that time (prior to the "L.A. Riots"), most of the elementary school teachers were as misguided as Steven. One of my teachers even suggested that I become a clown in a Circus as he felt I had the physical attributes to make people laugh. All these years later I can still remember his name, Mr. Murphy (or "the Idiot" as I called him under my breath). Fortunately, I had a mother at home who daily discounted all of the negative messages I received in school, chalking them up to "the ignorance of white teachers in black neighborhoods." So for me, as was the case for Sven and for his wife Sue (who is Korean), salvation from stereotypical "profiling" by misguided academic theorists came in the form of constant and steady reassurances at home that, "You are somebody and you will do great things with your life."

Gwen

Gwen, there are obviously some very specific contextual and historical factors impacting heavily on our individual perspectives. For instance I was not aware classes in that area were identified by the college that the teacher graduated from, I have not heard of that before.

I also am very aware that from this post and from other forums that I still need to work on the clarity of my written language.

Nevertheless, I find it intriguing that

a) you find the the posts referencing Bourdieu as a guide for my research project hurtful.

and b) you chose to respond to that through put downs and insults ie the questioning of whether I contribute anything of meaning to education and that I have to come up with some 'half-baked theory to get past his dissertation adviser and my comparison to your Mr. Murphy'.

and c) that you still find it possible to leap from my desire to read more about class, to the conclusion that I am misguided in my endeavors as a teacher.

From someone in your position I did expect more.

I am sure there are others apart from you who disagree with my line of questioning and interest. As I am sure there are those who disagree with you and yours.

I just hope you are NOT put down and insulted as you have done here.

I appreciate that being your last post as I believe you have indeed set the record straight on your views.

I also appreciate those who have provided responses to the question I asked, further information and places to go and further my knowledge. Much thanks.

Mark,

I am interested in your trajectory model. The students behaviours you mention, are the students behaviours I am interested in; the disruptive, non-compliant, or resistant behaviour as I am defining them. I can see how the cultural trajectories of the students impact on the decisions to engage in such behaviours. It is the social factors encompassed within the trajectories of the individual students that I will be researching. Would like to hear more.

Gary,

Fundamentally I agree but have more questions. If class doesnt explain students decisions or at least play into the mechanism influencing student decisions, then why are students from low socioeconimic backgrounds over represented in the student population excluded from school.

I believe there is a decision making cycle, schools make decisions to exclude students based on decisions students make to behave in certain ways. Students make these decisions in response to the schools behaviour towards them. The cycle exists but some students can step out of it. Why? How? What are the factors that allow some students to succeed while some students from the same backgrounds (or families even) fail so miserably?

If class doesn't explain student decisions/outcomes to the extent implied by many theories then to what extent does it explain student decisions? Perhaps none, but I believe it warrants further investigation.

Growing up how I did and 18 years teaching experience in some of the toughest schools across two states tells me there is a pattern inherent to the problem. I just dont understand it. Id like to say I dont understand it yet ..........but that may be presumptuous!

Gary,

I am still converned that my knowledge base of the correlation between SES grouping and school performance is so at odds with what you say. What is your response to this article in The Conversation? http://theconversation.com/atars-you-may-as-well-use-postcodes-for-university-admissions-19154

Steve, what you call the decision making cycle is another description for what i describe in my model, except that i think it is much more subtle and insidious than the example you gave. Troubled students end up where they do, either excluding themselves by their behaviour, sticking their finger up at the system, or quietly not performing or ... because the system sends them subtle and overt signs from an early age that they are not the chosen ones in the school system. At the very least they are told that they can't succeed at school. they make a range of decisions along the way to manage these depressing signs and depending on luck ie their friends, parents and teachers' responses to them, they spiral into the antisocial behaviours you mention or they end up at some variant of it (class clown, bully, disruptor etc). this is of course not a 1 to 1 correlation. i suggested that you talk to the teachers of the group in our school who ave been excluded and are in the process of reengagement. what that group shows is that once students are a little mature, some of them can be returned to the broader system by transitioning through a class where the signs are carefully managed to support them and they are supported to understand themselves and the system.

WRT class, there is a rough correspondence with SES in that low SES students are more likely to enter school with a deficit, especially ones in reading or writing, and a world view that is inherently antisystem, which is common in low SES groups, perhaps as a self protective measure (which may or may not contain some truth), leading to more active decision making on their part. Please note that i have no research other than my own observations over 30 years working in low SES schools on which to base these theories.

Thanks Gina, I will go and explore that information. Much appreciated.

To all,

I am sorry if somehow my question has offset people. That is certainly not my intended goal. I take responsibility for perhaps not wording the original question effectively.

I am NOT actually suggesting class is useful as a predictor of behavior though. In my original question I stated my belief that the behaviors I am seeing in my students can NOT be explained using definitions of class. Therefore my initial plan of attack is to question and develop my understanding of class. I actually cant understand why my desire to fully understand something before dismissing it is offensive.

My aim is to explore and understand the social factors influencing the decisions of some students. Attempting to align the literature (which does suggest some kind of connection, for example Nolan and Anyon (2011) suggest that early work on class still offers a framework for understanding young people’s own roles in educational outcomes) with my own observations and experiences has led me to question my understanding of class.

Therefore I simply wish to further explore this topic.

Curiosity is the purist form of research, enjoy the journey but reflect upon your observations.

A number of responses have indicated that I should stay away from 'class', that it has no relationship with student outcomes/decisions.

Yet Reay (2012) indicates

"there are a growing number of studies that explore the experiences of

students from different class backgrounds"

and outlines

"research that focuses on the impact of social class on student experiences and retention"

indicating that

"social class is increasingly seen to be a concern in the retention of students"

All I am wanting to do is to better understand the concept of class and the theories pertaining to class. I am capable of then making up my own mind, but would rather do it with all the information I can gather and not based on what school was like for me as a child.

The definition of "class" is wide and long if it has to be interpreted in terms:

social class, financial, economical, political, military (rank, air force, marine, army, etc.). How would you define a political governing class or an elite consisting of the old chieftainship of a village in the remote areas in Asia, Africa, even South America where civilization has not touched those lands and its people. So, I would think and define class in those terms and the research would be comparing those types of classes which are influential to the development of a society. But classes have an impact on the upbringing of a child. Also the relationship that exists between students in a school is dependent of where a student has come from: rich class, ethnic background, religious background, etc., are other issues that define class, if I may... think about it...

Thanks John, That is where I am in my thinking, the different ways that class is/can be defined.

I wonder if it is growing up in northern Australia that has anything to do with it but I'm just not clear on the concept of class. I feel like I grew up in a fairly 'class-less' community. Then again, maybe that's the perception of all children???

Bourdieu discusses 'taste' and makes an strong argument for the distinction between classes. Others define class by parent occupation or family wealth. However in my opinion these distinctions appear to be far too easily blurred.

Specifically I am wondering if class distinctions can be defined in terms of 'options' or 'choice' or even 'perception of options' or ability to enact choices.

That probably sounds a little airy fairy which is why I am just wishing at this stage to read and try and understand the area more before trying to articulate my ideas.

Brian,

You suggested early 'there is always Marx and Weber'. Can I ask you to clarify? My understanding is that Marx very much relies on class distinction via economic relationships (wealth and occupation) and to a lesser extent so does Weber.

I do think Weber (in my opinion) seems to suggest that individuals occupying similar social positions possess similar knowledge (through exposure to similar experiences) which is where I think I heading in my thinking.

You might investigate cultural and its acquisition as the basis for development of class, as in commonly shared, characteristics. Take a look at the common descriptors of "class" and then investigate how the individual comes into possession, or is possessed, those descriptors. I suggest that the concepts of acculturation, socialization, and politicization may contain the elements of class acquisition that you seek.

Thanks Emery, Much appreciated and good to hear from you

Don't ignore the fact that much individual behavior can be correlated with inherited genes, both familial and universal. Social conditioning does not explain everything. Social scientists are slow to wake up to this fact. It is a blind side in their education. However, the genes usually do not predict situational behavor, usually only the tendencies to acquire different behavior patterns. You will have to be more specific about what "behavior" is giving you difficulty.

Gday James,

A good point, thanks! In terms of the specifics of the behavior I am concerned with, it isn't really one behaviour, but a set of behavioural practices that I have defined as educationally resistant behaviours. Choices students make, or judgement even, on the relevance of formal education to their current and future lives.

This resistance to the importance that dominate groups place on formal education manifests in a variety of forms, enacted within school settings; non-compliance to truancy to violence and aggression. The literature suggest that lower classes enact this resistance towards the values imposed by upper classes and in some school aged students it is most commonly manifested in educational settings.

Thanks

Greatly appreciated. Thanks

Have you looked at Bourdieu especially his sketch for a Self Analysis

He looks to habitus and social structures to consider how membership of class can allow individual variations as well as common features in struggling to maintain a position in the world. I have been using it to consider two autralians, caroline Bowditch and Marc Brew .. It lets me look at family position as well as particular features as both self-describe as disabled in their education and traing ..just a thought .. the book I mention is useful because he considers class in relation to his own experiences in Frenh context

Thanks Gill, while I am very interested in Bourdieu's work I feel like I am only scratching the surface and so your advice to continue reading up on Bourdieu is timely.

Steve

After much reading and reflecting I am wondering if class can be defined via the Bourdieuian version of capital (the intersections between economic and cultural) and realized through one's ability, or lack of (or difficulties with) to use their capital to make or control choices.

Broad I know but any thoughts

I like what you say, but need to ponder more. the lack of ability to use the capital they may or may not have is of interest. Am I reading you correctly?

Yes, that's correct.

If, using Bourdieu, I read class as constructed by the intersection of capitals and networks, then it can be operationalised and thereby defined by the ability (or lack therefore) to access and mobilse that capital.

A marker for the middle class therefore could be seen as the access to greater range of life choices and the access to greater resources with which to effect choice.

While the lower classes may be seen as having less capital with which to draw on to chose from a restricted range of choices.

In such a way, class definitions would include but not be limited by economics and would allow the construction of social divisions vertically and horizontally.

Its not new, at least I don't think so, I'm pretty sure its all from Bourdieu. Ive been reading and reading and trying to word it in a way that is true to his work but in a way I can understand and that relates to what I see with the students i am working with and researching.

and reflecting on all the responses and feedback I received here I might add

Well, I have attended a lecture by Bourdieu - interesting! the colorful scale is interesting to use...

Please do share more

Class is a notoriously undertheorized concept, despite the vast literature.

Arguably the most sophisticated reinterpretation of Marx's critical theory of modern society, which has implications for "class," is Moishe Postone's (1993) Time Labor and Social Domination. For both Postone and Bourdieu (albeit in different ways), class is something other and more than an "economic" category (i.e. it cannot be grasped solely in terms of monetary income, etc.).

Thanking you all for your responses and encouragement. While I am hesitant to say i know understand class, I at least feel confident that I see the concept more clearly now.

In general, a particular type or category of any thing is called a class

Interesting conversation. I am teaching a sociology of health and illness class this semester. We're soon to be discussing social class and its correlation to poor health. You've given me a few more sources to chew on. I've never been comfortable with the simple cut and dry definition of class that I've used. It is indeed far more complicated than wealth, occupation, education, etc.. But by keeping the definition of class simple (targeting one or two characteristics), it is easier to measure. Sigh.

'Class' is one effort to understand behavior, based on a necessity to understand purpose. It is more useful in identifying species of plants and animals, than humans, because we (humans) do so many similar things for very different reasons. We may even imitate each other for no reason at all.

It can also be used as a method of comparative reference. But again, given our uniqueness, comparison is not a helpful tool in understanding something as unique as identity.

And if class serves the purpose of assigning values to differences, it might speak more to the observer than the subject.

It may be that if class had purpose, its run its course.

Thank you Morris,

I understand the negative connatations associated with the term 'class'. I also can see the limititaions of the concept as it is traditionally defined.

The concept, adequately defined, has purpose in providing a method of analysis of the similarities in cultural trajectories of cultural groupings.

Still working on my defintition and very appreciateive of the feedback and responses.

Dear All,

In the Bhagavad Gita, a >5000 year old manual on Yoga, Krishna explains class as follows: [words in big brackets mine]

1. "Do you know what binds a man in his body? It is a triangle of forces, formed by the pull of the three basic qualities in three directions. They are Force(Activity/Dynamism), Matter (Inertia/Laziness) and Consciousness(Poise)".

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2. Poise is the equator of the two poles-activity and inertia. It is purity and brilliance itself. When operating in men, it keeps them in happiness and knowledge.

3.Activity is the cause of formation of unit particles, the fundamental units of matter. It produces desire and attachment when operating in men. It binds a man to a desire for results. [the overactivity, objective & selfishly motivated actions of the greedy few?]

4. Inertia is the state of unknowability because knowledge exists there in a sleeping condition. Allurement is its trait. It produces sleep, laziness and mistake, binding men while it operates in their bodies.[the stupor or inactivity of the lower classes?]

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5. Poise produces happiness, activity produces action, inertia pervades knowledge as sleep and produces understanding one thing as another.

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6. When all your senses are at ease and more sensible and when you know things and understand easily, then poise is at work in you.

7. When activity predominates, one grows covetous and greedy of overwork. His desires multiply and he does not want to stop at anything to reach his goal.

8. When inertia predominates, man suffers from loss of brilliance. He is disinclined to act and if at all he acts, he does things wrongly.

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9. Poise causes knowing. Activity causes possessive nature. Inertia produces self allurement, a wrong understanding of the Cosmic Consciousness as the individual ego.

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10. People in poise live in the higher planes of Consciousness that are located in the upper half of their body[Higher levels of Consciousness]. People in whom activity is predominant, live in the middle regions which stimulate emotions into the twin poles of like and dislike[Middle levels of Consciousness]. They suffer from vehement pulls of their own polarity. People in whom inertia is predominant, go down deep into their lower regions where the nether planes of instincts and beastly reflexes exist. They dive deep into indulgences. [Lower levels of Consciousness; clue to substance abuse, beastly behavior?]

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11. Happiness with inconvenient steps in the beginning and a happy culmination later which causes continuous happiness is of poised nature.[discipline first, happiness later of the educated elite classes? The importance of delayed gratification?]

12. Happiness caused by the contact of the senses to their objects, which is convenient in the beginning and which causes unhappiness in its culmination is of hyper-active nature.[instant pleasure first, resulting in pain later of the middle classes?]

13. If happiness is lost by complexes and adherence from beginning to end or if happiness is identified with sleep, laziness or mistaking, it is of inertia [aimless lazy living, without a clue to life and self development of the lower classes?].

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14. The blends of the above three qualities exist in infinite number of combinations in men. Each of it produces an individuality which has no second. YET we can arrange people into groups by similarity and commonness in the blends. Common qualities decide the grouping though individual differences exist.

15. By these common qualities we can group people into FOUR CLASSES: the Wise, the Protective, the Utilitarian and the Working class. Four different natures of these four classes divide the behavior , actions, duties and professions in the same manner for them to choose.

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16. Tranquility of mind, self control, penance, purity, forgiving, straightforwardness, right knowledge and belief in the Cosmic Presence, decide the nature of the wisdom class.(Priests, Thinkers, Philosophers..)

17. Valor, initiative, self-composure, administrative ability, self-sacrifice, charity, lordship and fearlessness in fight, decide the nature of the ruling class.(Protectors/Warriors/Rulers)

18. Ability in agriculture, tending the herds and exchange of wealth, decide the Utilitarian nature (Businessmen).

19. Obedience, service and servitude decide the nature of the Working class.

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20. One gets success and accomplishment only by following the type of work suited to one's own nature.

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[The above is a basis for the ancient Indian Caste system into which society was divided into by ancient lawgivers(The code of Manu) keeping people's inner natures in view. The initial triangle of forces mix into infinite permutations, but basically they mix into four classes as follows;

1.Poise(Priestly class) 2. Poise-Activity (Warrior class) 3. Activity-Inertia(Business class) 4. Inertia (Working class)

Over 5000 years ago, at the beginning of the Iron age of Kali, this system was corrupted by selfish/fearful families (taking advantage of a break down in law and order following a great war of all nations at that time), who wished that their children follow the same profession as the father, instead of following their(the child's) own natural inherent natures. Thus the caste system got corrupted and today we have more than 4000 various castes in the Indian subcontinent,(and none at all in other nations) ill assigned hereditary professions and a resultant weakening of society in general. Every nation and society through time had this division of class into the Wise, the Aristocrat, the Businessman and the Worker according to nature's qualities working in each individual.(Nobility/Aristocrat, Gentry, Banker/businessman, Factory worker/Labourer) But in ancient India, this was codified and followed a different way of life for each class. Food, work, worship, marriage, house building...all varied with each caste/class.

Newly emerging western societies (Greek, Roman...also Chinese) aped the same class system, but could not codify it into law as the Indians did(but abused it into the slave system), and thus all ancient civilisations(Babylon, Egypt, Greek, Roman, Celtic,... )perished except for the Indian civilisation, which remains the oldest surviving civilisation in the world till date. Historians thus attribute Indian civilisation's resilience to the caste system, where even now the characteristics can be seen, albeit not in every individual.

The above mentioned triangle of forces is inherent in the very fabric of nature and also operates in every living body as Vata(air), Pitta(fire), Kapha(water) and forms the Ayurvedic concept of Tridosha.(corresponding to the Ecto-morph, Meso-morp and Endo-morph body types of modern allopathic medicine). An ayurvedic physician first reads the pulse of the patient to see which 'Ayurvedic class' the patient belongs to, determining which 'humor/dosha' is disturbed and sets himself to bringing back that humor to balance.

In eastern faiths, the triangle of forces also operate as Shiva(The Destroyer), Brahma(The Creator) and Vishnu(The Preserver) Trinity of deities/forces.

A description of the foods, corresponding behaviors, way of action, thinking patterns and choices is also given, but omitted here for want of space.

This can help in understanding class and human nature, to throw light on the different behaviors of each class in society.

In ancient India, behavior according to caste was well documented, each class behaving in a particular expected pattern due to their inherent natures. In modern times and modern societies, not so much accuracy can be expected because of random and frequent inter marriages among various classes. In earlier times, 'birds of a feather flocked together'. There were metal worker, farmer, merchant, warrior and priestly communities. They lived together not as a matter of convenience, but because they thought alike and had similar lifestyle habits, due to the manifestation of that particular mix of the above mentioned triangle of forces.

What the Galapagos islands was to Charles Darwin, untouched and rich in bio-diversity, India is to the social scientist, still preserving its ancient class-diversity.

Hope this helps in understanding classes, behaviors and choices, among many other things.]

Dear Steven, I wrote the entry on "class" for the International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences. If you are interested, I would be happy to send it to you. Please let me know. Best wishes, Cedric

Yes please, Thank you

Thank you all for your responses, here and through email. I have done alot of reading and thinking and have enjpoyed the journey. Bourdieu as I know and understand him now is different to the Bourdieu I first met and I credit the debates held here and elsewhere for the renewed prespective and respect. Although I will continue to read and write and think and debate on the issue I am comfortable with my current understanding of class.

What are trying to achieves from the students, as social class is just a construct one uses to identify various bands. Australia does not have an official definition of class unlike the UK where they have a clear statistical definition. You could have the students do some simple census analysis based on income bands, then explore ideas such as occupation, education, location SEIFA value. They could also do some distributional analysis for bias.

Actually from the work into 'class' I was really just trying to consolidate my thinking. In terms of achieving goals with the students, my perspective, and use, of class is simply as a  term to collectively describe similiarities, rather than the use of class that privileges one group over another.  My understanding is Australia,  even though we have distinct groups of people, doesnt have the class structure other countries do.