Also in poetry and literature you have similar references; For instance Hugo von Hofmannsthal (an Austrian writer of the beginning of the 20th century) has opposed the "common" daily-life language with a a sort of highly motivated "transcendant" language (cf. also Hermann Broch and especially his trilogy, Sleepwalkers).

Yes, I know von Hofmannsthal. So you are saying that transcendent mysteries exist solely for the purpose of elevating readers over everyday life? Or is there something in the transcendent themselves mysteries that we should be striving to understand?

No, I think that there is "more": indeed a very serious of something like a "perfect" language. It's difficult for me to find the good expression for this. I would like to refer to Musil's novel "The Man without Qualities": in this unfinished novel you have the history of Ulrich (the "man without qualities") and his sister Agathe which ned in an (intended) incest. The meaning of this act (which is commented and discussed in detail by the protagonist) is something like a mystical union with the other that abolishes the "difference": difference in meaning, difference in the experience of time the separation between you and the other, etc. Something which remembers the mystical experience (the extase) in the mystical novels discussed, for instance, by Michel de Certeau.

That is an excellent answer, Peter! I am reminded of "trobar clus" in Provencal poetry, concealing the name of the beloved to preserve her honor (while quasi-deifying her). Much enigmatic literature cultivates mystery to avoid social opprobrium. As to the expression of mystic union through incestuous love, compare the "Song of Solomon," 5,17: "I come to my garden, my sister, my bride." This biblical book has often been repeatedly interpreted by mystics in the Middle Ages and Renaissance as a secret code for the union between God and His Church, when not between the Holy Spirit and the human soul. Somehow the sense of mystery endows the sibling relationship with sacredness.

Thank you, very much, Nelson, for your very interesting reference to Marcabru's "trobar clus". Concerning the mystic experience, a very often quoted reference is also St. Teresa d'Avila ...

I have studied St. Teresa and also her Carmelite male counterpart Saint John of the Cross. St. John offered a strophe-by-strophe prose explanation of his three greatest mystic poems, "Flame of Living Love," "Dark Night of the Soul," and "Spiritual Canticle" (the last one, a person paraphrasing of the Song of Solomon). Yet the explanation hues much closer to established dogma than do the poems themselves, leaving too much unexplained. Precisely in St John's departure from dogma lies much of his greatness as a poet, much of his intensity as a mystic lover of the Holy Spirit. Interestingly, St John's poetic voice is a female, the human soul ("alma," a feminine noun in Spanish, French, and German), whereas the beloved is masculine (the "Esp'iritu Santo," Holy Ghost in Spanish, a masculine noun). There is a secret love tryst between them, secret so as not to arouse the dormant body. Yet when you examine the saint's erotic metaphors, you wonder about all that he does not tell us.

I notice that you are a scholar of the so-called "inscrutable" Orient. There must be "secret" literature of some type in those varied cultures. What can you tell me?

I am a scholar at the "National Institute of Oriental Languages and Civilisations" in Paris but I am not a specialist of these cultures and literatures (I am teaching semiotics/semiology, communication and (new) media sciences there ...).

However, it seems that in many (if not all) cultures, there exist this research (and exercice) of "secretness", of "mystery" expressed through figures or topoi such as the "plenitude of being", the "abolition of difference", the "(mystical) union", "harmony" etc. One example that I have in mind is soufism. But I also think of Claude Lévi-Strauss and his very interesting remarks on Ravel (you have studied, as I have seen on your site), Wagner as well as rituals and ritualistic practices (like shamanism) - remarks which are very close to those of R. Jakobson about the poetic function of language ...

Thank you, Peter, for your very sage answer(s). I should have realized that a professional semiotician would have insights that other scholars would lack about conveying mysteries in art. Tell me in which publication L'evi-Strauss remarks about Ravel (my favorite composer), and I will quote you in my book, "Ravel and the Music of Spain," when it appears.

Thank you, Nelson, for your compliment. Lévi-Strauss has written about the mythical structure of Ravel's Bolero in his fourth volume of the "Mythologiques" (in English, I think, the title is "The Naked Man"). Hereafter a link to the Persee portal (many very valuable articles in human sciences ...) - in French (unfortunately ?). The link gives you access to Levi-Strauss essay on the Bolero ...

In his first volume of "Mythologiques", Levi-Strauss has also written about Richard Wagner - very interesting, too ...

With all mmy best regards P

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/hom_0439-4216_1971_num_11_2_367175

Thank you for the L'evi-Strauss reference. I do read French and will quote from the original in my book. The "Bolero," while not my favorite Ravel composition (I much prefer works of the quality of "Le Tombeau de Couperin" and the two piano concerti), is nonetheless important for its orchestral experimentation. As to a mythical structure, I will tell you my reaction after reading the essay. Here we hit on the problem of involuntary concealment in art of subconscious meanings. One wonders whether art would survive the artists without the collaboration of inventive interpreters a posteriori. Ravel himself denies any transcendent meaning in the "Bolero" (other than the instrumental experimentation). Yet in interviews he offhandedly mentioned a possible erotic meaning.

Dear Peter,

I have devoured the L'evy-Strauss analysis of "Bol'ero" and digested his argument of a myth in the sense of a work whose construction seems transparent at first, yet narrates a complex story on various planes simultaneously (in the "Bolero," the real, the symbolic, and the imaginary). The key to the secret mythical code always transcends the author's definitions of the work: "Meme si Ravel d'efinissait Bol'ero comme un crescendo instrumental et feignait de n'y voir qu'un exercice d'orchestraton, il est clair que l'enterprise recouvre bien d'autres choses; qu'il s'agisse de musique . . . on n'irait pas loin dans l'analyse des oeuvres d'art si l'on s'en tenait a ce que leur auteurs ont dit ou meme cru avoir fait." I will indeed read what L'evy-Strauss says about Wagner, because I believe he offers me a method for treating all Ravel's music in my emerging book. All I need do is define the problem of each piece and examine the "plot" of the solution. What do you think?

Warmest wishes,

Nelson.

Dear Nelson,

Thank you very much for your kind answer.

Indeed, personnally I think that structural analysis (à la Lévi-Strauss, Barthes, Greimas, ...) are very good approaches in text analysis ("text" broadly speaking).

I am not really a specialist of music - I am what people call simply a "mélomane" (especially of Baroque music).

In any case, I think that Lévi-Strauss' reading of Wagner is very interesting - especially for your purpose (it's also interesting to read his critical point of view of serial music). Further, Lévi-Strauss was also interested in "modern" art - Picasso and Braque, etc.

I don't know if you know Eero Tarasti, a Finnish semiotician working on music (Sibelius, Wagner, etc.) in Lévi-Strauss' and Greimas' tradition. That's maybe an interesting source for you: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_Tarasti (especially his book on Myth and Music).

In litterature, Roland Barthes has produced an amazing analysis of a short novel of Balzac - "Sarrasine". In his book intitled "S/Z", he develops his ideas on a ""hermeneutic code" related to the myth and enigma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/Z). It seems to me very close to what you have written in your last message above - I quote you : "The key to the secret mythical code always transcends the author's definitions of the work"

yours Peter

Larisa:

If you have anything to add about secrecy in Russian literature, literature involving the Kabbalah, or immigration literature, please jump into the conversation!

Dear Peter,

I notice that you are an expert in Husserl. I too have researched Husserl, his method, and its followers (in relation to Jose' Ortega y Gasset, one of the various philosophers who introduced Husserl into Spain).

Right now, however, I am busy reading "Mythologiques," because I am seeing its usefulness for my book on Ravel, thanks to you.

Your friend,

Nelson.

Dear Nelson,

I like very much Husserl and especially Alfred Schütz (an Austro-American sociologist who has introduced Husserl's notion of "Lebenswelt in sociology). However, I am not really a specialist of phenomenology - it's like music: I am, so to speak, a "melomane" of phenomenology (and philosophy of language).

Lévi-Strauss' "Mythologiques" are really outstanding - a source for multiple "inspirations". Another work which has been important for me is his "The savage mind" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Savage_Mind).

Concerning the genre of the mystical novel (la "fable mystique"), Michel de Certeau is a interesting source of inspiration (http://www.jesuites.com/2013/09/fable-mystique-t2-de_certeau/). Michel de Certeau has also written about St. Teresa.

amitiés et à bientôt, peut-être

Peter

Peter, I love "Der sinnhafte Aufbau der soziale Welt" of Alfred Schuetz. I read it in connection with Jose' Ortega y Gasset's course on sociology, "Man and People" (1949-50). You are a "savant" with all your wide readings, while at the same time capable of claiming depth through your semiotics. I write you from Washington, D.C., away from home, so I do not have my computer at hand. However, when I get home, I will read "Mythologiques" in depth. The method for my Ravel book will surely emerge from that source.

Larisa, thank you for the reference to Gleb Butuzov, an article which will surely help me in my hermetic studies.

Dera Nelsen - it's exactely "der sinnhafte Aufbau" which is one of my favorite books in social sciences. It is a very profound book which, in my opinion, bridges phenomenology with structuralist approaches à la Greimas, Lévi-Strauss, Foucualt, Bourdieu and - in the USA - C. Geertz or Erving Goffman. I think that it is again to-day very relevant (especially whith respect to the recent developments in cultural sciences - "Kulturwissenschaften" - integrating semiotic and textual as well as pragmatic (and praxeological) approaches (among others).

I have to read Ortega - it's already a very, very long time ago that have read him (I think it was in Salzburg where I have studied in the 70ies ...). I remember that we have studied him in relationship with Freud and Canetti (with respect to the psychology of masses ...).

I would be eager to read your book on Ravel!

Do you know the Finnish semiotician Eero Tarasti ?

With all my best regards Peter

No, dear Peter, I do not know Eero Tarasti's work. As soon as I return home, I will read him.

As to my book on Ravel, I have reached an impasse, because I need to consult the virtuoso pianist Ricardo Vinyes' diary on Ravel, his intimate friend, but Vinyes' daughter-in-law, who lives in Paris, has published only part of that diary. Somehow I will solve this problem, because I have managed to acquire unpublished information about Ravel and his other friends (for instance, Manuel de Falla).

Through your encouragement I want to reread Schuetz's book to see how much structuralism is in there.

Warmest wishes,

Nelson.

I thought the following poem might be pertinent to this discussion:

My Silly Spies

I am M; my spies work from home,

incognito, half-hidden from themselves:

they delve, dig up what is so

artfully concealed,

and feeling somewhat clueless

find that cryptograms they disinter reveal

a double-agency

that steals from out the shadow world of

hearts and minds,

a little something of themselves

they don't expect to find.

What a meaningful little poem! Even when working ¨from home,¨ in the atmosphere of familiarity, one finds part of oneself that one never knew! ¨Clueless,¨¨¨cryptograms,¨and ¨double agencies¨ half-conceal, half'-reveal, a delicious irony mocking the limits of self-consciousness, which philosophers from Descartes to Husserl have apotheosized.

I am not sure that your poem answers the question put here as to the ¨why´s¨ of artistic secrecy, dear Kevin, but I am sure that it delightfully shows the ¨how¨´s. For that I thank you.

You are welcome!

Your comments help me understand this poem, better than I ever tought...(Oirish)

Nelson - some thoughts on the question. We all love puzzles and I think hermetic art responds to to this in the audience. There is also of course the desire to communicate only to the exclusive, understanding few , perhaps through a kind of snobbishness, but also perhaps to keep the 'gnosis' from being too widely (and dangerously) dispersed. Kabbalah might be a good example (?).

Alternatively, it may just be that certain thoughts and emotions can ONLY be expressed hermetically - it might be said that JH Prynne's 'difficult' poetry takes the form it does, not because of deliberate obscurantism, but because that which Prynne tries to express may only be expressed that way. Or perhaps, in his case, he IS just being difficult - the poetry certainly draws attention to itself and requires the reader to devote a lot of time and attention to the work if anything is to be made of it (in contrast, a relatively 'simple' poem may be glanced at and forgotten without the reader attempting any plumbing of its depths.

I could say more - about Finnegans Wake for instance and Pound's response to it ("Nothing so far as I can make out, nothing short of divine vision or a new cure for the clapp can possibly be worth all that circumambient peripherization."), but I fear I might simply be repeating myself.

Kevin: This is a fine series of reflections on your part. Your remark that we all love puzzles reminds me that Johan Huizinga in ¨Homo Ludens" related riddle-telling to play, an exercise undertaken for love of the activity in itself. Your relating of secrecy to elitism is surely true in certain kinds of Symbolist poems (related to Rosicrucianism). Kabbalah may or may not be a good example, as it protects sacred secrets from the non-believers: revelation may prove dangerous to the minority of the believers. I wonder if Larisa or her neighbors there in the Holy Land have enlightening information about this point.

Hermeticism as a necessity is surely the case of much mystic poetry: how to express the ineffable except through opaque imagery? This I leave to Peter, a semiotician, who surely knows more than we.

https://www.researchgate.net/project/Chord-Language