Dear Quan Hoang Nguyen ,

And what about knowledge, research experience or pedagogical abilities?

Hi,

I think that ethics and morals are more important than citations. The difference is that you can see the citations but the ethics and morals are visible only if you know the person well.

Systematic ethical reflection and solid moral practice is more important than citations any day although it often may not seem to be the case in academia.

Everything is important to sustain as gr8 prof . But attaining citations through ethics are called Legends

Citations measure one aspect of research, i.e. how often other researchers cite a workers research. They have little to say about how good, or how useful research is. A good professor must be much more than a good researcher. They may have to teach students, to motivate and direct their work for postgraduate degrees and likewise for post docs and juniour faculty members. And much more. For these tasks a good ethical and moral sense is absolutely essential and citations may help. Speaking to present/former students and/or colleagues of a professor will give you some idea of their moral and ethical sense.

Jim F Malone Huge applause

First I found the last two in you sir!!! You are my great inspiration during my UG. Thanks for be with us and taught importance of moral and ethics in work.

Agree. Here are some rules (you can agree or disagree) about a "xxGoodxx" professor.

Rule 0: She tends to confuse herself and other people about her citations and collaborators.

Rule 1: Her ideas and work are hers. Ideas and work of collaborators are also hers.

Rule 2: No work, still her work.

Rule 3: Your work but her funding. You shouldn't know about the funding.

Disclaimer: the list is only for discussions. Please feel free to discuss but only add research-related discussions please.

Dear Quan Hoang Nguyen,

In my opinion, all important categories of scientific, research and educational activities are important, as well as certain positive character traits, especially in the person who also conducts didactic classes. Morality, ethics and other positive human values are also important in scientific and didactic activities. Both scientists and teachers should represent their person with high moral and ethical standards so that they can be respected, recognized and treated as authorities by students and students.

Best wishes

Morals

Moral and then ethic in my opinion.

Of course, morality is the basis and there is nothing wrong with martyrdom .

All are important.

Ethics first.

Kudos to Jim Malone. Further I would think that a highly placed personality occupying such an influential position, but lacking morality, would be an oddity.

Citations by themselves reflect how popular the work is. Very little information can be gathered form the article as to how ethically the work was carried out. If you see some hand-waving arguments without proper substantiation then you can suspect that perhaps the author took some short cuts. The other way would be, if given a chance, observe the professor in the class room or laboratory. Interview students informally to get the "inside scoop" pertaining to the professor which would include characteristics reflecting ethical principles of the professor. Ethics and morals are so closely related.

All the three are equally important citations, ethics and morals.

Which is more important for a good professor: citations, ethics or morals?

Ethics & moral are more important than citations. Because embracing ethics or morals can last the professor for life on the right path doing the right things whereas citations only useful for a limited of time i.e. citations can be obsolete one day when new knowledge being discovered.

As said Seher Almedeny all are important, but with different (weights, or amounts, or priority, or amplitude, etc...).

When there is only one, we live a certain maladjustment!

There are great professors with a few citations.

Students are not interested in citations, they remember professors about something else. How strict they were, how interesting they were, how they treated them, ...

ethics has an important place in life. Education is a fundamental process of human life. Therefore, in education ethics has a very important role. In order to be a good human, ethics should be placed as a course in educational system.

i think both

Citation refers research basic, knowledge of explanation and ability of describing of problems more important for students than citation.

Dmytro Leshchenko, agree. But some universities may keep ignoring the negative impacts.

Citation will reflect the research impact. On the other hand, ethics/morals will reflect our personality. According to me, both are important to a professor.

All

2 both

Those professors who practice ethics and live a life with moral values imbibed in them are adored most and not citations or so. The citations at times can be obtained by using unorthodox means. A student follows the footprints of a good professor based on his academic, research credentials laced with ethics, values and virtues.

Kjartan Skogly Kversøy interested in hearing some specific examples (not too detailed) to see if it is popular.

the good professor ethic that Get citations.

I am sure that some academic terms like professors, citations,.... etc may not truly reflect the quality of the researcher. I know a lot of professors who even do not know how to write a proposal! In my opinion there have to be some moral& ethical parameters for the assessment of professors& researchers in general

All this is important to the professor

First comes ethics then citations.

Вдячні учні, як продовжують його в своїх дослідженнях, справах тощо.

Both are equally important

Morals and ethics would be more important having the knowledge that you have provided.

I have seen worst examples, here in Canada. Deans and higher pretend to ignore them or turn a blind eye - to protect themselves. The unethical would be exposed sooner or later - there is no escape. But do WE have to do something about it, or more important, do we have to worry about it? Better, just expose it and report it. (In my city, police put up street signs "report dangerous drivers", they will deal with them). In the university, the Deans & presidents are supposed to deal with such affairs, but normally, they do nothing. They are cowards, afraid of losing their job.

Both are important for a good professor.

Michael Issigonis Same here in Australia the case that I know. Deans and higher knew (faculty knew for sure) but no action was made. For the case, unfortunately many people in the research community doesn't know it, as good researchers do not speak out. Corruption in academia has more negative impacts and longer time than it does in other fields.

Surendra Tryambakrao Kale can you add more details for your suggestion.

To all readers, it'd be better to give justifications from your own opinions and experience rather just stating a short phrase or sentence. Thanks.

Amjad Hazim Al- Naemi Agree. There should be moral & ethical parameters for the assessment rather than just the citations. Once a corrupted one climbs up to be a professor, it's trouble some not only for the faculty or the university she works, but also for the nation as funding was wasted. For research community, such corrupted persons can pollute the truth-seeking environment and can cancel research motivation.

Totally true Quan Hoang... Your comment is appreciated& really valuable... Thanks

Amjad Hazim Al- Naemi Thanks.

@Jim F Malone: Sometimes it's not possible to find and speak to present/former students and/or colleagues of a professor. Also they may not want to speak out to a stranger. Would it be better that the university / research community should provide such information of a corrupt person publicly (even partially)? Anyone has any suggestion to have a better academic environment.

Quan, you have moved into a more difficult area than your first question. You now want to identify what to do about people who behave unethically. This raises legal questions, such as how to respect the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven. On the other side, it raises the question of how to ensure whistle-blowers are respected and protected.

Most institutions, even in enlightened countries, have not yet got satisfactory systems for dealing with these conflicting interests in a way that is both fair and just. And without fairness, a system will not be respected.

Jim F Malone Agree. This is a challenge.

To all, welcome any suggestions / discussions.

Michael, it need not be a choice; the two are not mutually exclusive. Your observations disguise non-sequiturs. Moral people can (and often do) accumulate citations; and saints are not necessarily boring.

Agree with Jim. For Michael Uebel's answer, it helps explain the lady professor's behaviors and cover-ups.

Hi Quan Hoang

These are behavior that is at odds with the ethical norms of research. In these cases I recommend reviewing the presentations in congresses and public exhibitions of these people because they are spaces to evaluate before the peers. Anyway, we will find these cases in the academy. Fortunately it is the least and marginal.

Jose Luis Da Silva Strongly agree. Yes, such cases are very rare in academy. But the sad fact in this case is that Deans and Higher were fully aware of the corrupt one from her former colleagues and collaborators (most junior to most senior) for years.

Michael, thanks for sharing your view. Just wondering your view about moral vs immoral and ethical vs unethical. Can you give a lecture about this for us?

Eathics moral not only important for Professor but also for all men and women. Professor basically belong to this category...

Michael, thanks for sharing your expertise on the matter. As being a Dean, do you think it's a common phenomenon? Does your view apply to pure science or social science or both?

Hi Readers,

From the responses so far, there are only two who tend to argue in favor of citations.

I know similar cases and to my experience it only can happen, if the person is supported by superiors, who prevent that issues are proper investigated. In such scenario it is even dangerous to report someone as this can easily fall back to the whistle blower.....

Weber, totally agree with you. It's likely that's what has happened in this case.

Quan, that's partly because the original question is posed as an either/or choice. But, we know that if we go for a "moral" professor, it does not exclude lots of citations. And it does give somebody we can trust and possibly be happy to work with. On the other hand we know if we go primarily for citations, it promises none of that. It does not even guarantee work of distinction. We all know lots of citations can be generated by work that is frankly wrong or misleading (as well as really good work).

Jim F Malone Totally agree.

Quan Hoang Nguyen When you say "important", whose perspective do you have in mind? The department? Colleagues? Neighbors? Family? Friends? Society? The corrupt professor? The universe, all things considered?

Quan Hoang Nguyen

You could have asked me but I do not work in your department. I know her family well. We are from the same village in a remote part of the country. Her family suffered great hardship during the long years of the war. She really struggled to gain some education. She is from an ethnic minority and at every turn, she faced discrimination. Even now with the small income from her professorship she is supporting many of her relatives and family members in the remote village. Perhaps she has not been the most honest professor. I agree.

Do you know how much corruption there is among the local government officials?

Quien soy yo para juzgar?

Thanks for sharing, Tham. Appreciate it.

All are important!

all the aspects mentioned are important...

I agree with the respondents. All are important.

Whether one is more important than others, it depends on occasion.

E.g. to evaluate impact of published work probably you look first citations and then others.

However, to evaluate research approaches, ethics might matter more.

Dear Readers,

We get a good response that All are important. So which one is more important? Is it acceptable for a professor who lacks of the other two is still considered 'good'?

Michael Uebel Thanks for sharing your Dean expertise in Texas. If you read read the context of the post and all the readers' responses, it may help.

Citations and, in part, ethics. Moral is largely part of etthics.

And a good professor should provide exciting and thrilling teaching skills. Which has nothing to do with citations or moral, but somehow with ethics.

Michael, thanks for reading the context. Perhaps you haven't seen such a corruption before. Imagine such a corrupt person will climb up to be a more senior position (likely), it's not good for other researchers nor co-workers. The thread is for open discussions, since actions by former collaborators failed.

Great inputs from all over here. This is an important issue that needs serious discussions.

Dear Readers,

We should thank Michael Uebel for sharing his success story at Texas. Dr. Uebel is an expert in mental health and psychotherapy.

A scholar with lots of citations and no moral compass may also become something of a mobster. When I encounter such people, I avoid them as far as is possible. Interaction with them inevitably becomes disturbing, and can lead to complicity in corrupt behaviour, - sometimes without becoming aware of it until later. In this context, as in many others, the end does not justify the means, - even if the end is brilliant scholarship.

Jim F Malone Absolutely agree.

Perhaps the following thread may interest readers of this thread.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Can_knowledge_and_communication_stop_corruption

Dear Readers,

It sounds the standard at Texas is beyond what normal people could achieve.

Is it common from your experience?

The "genius" of the entity in this question is well known by former collaborators and current co-workers. Fortunately, there is only single one I knew.

It's worth to emphasize again that the question is about good professor.

Readers of this thread may also interest in the following thread: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Which_of_the_professors_you_had_in_college_was_a_model_for_your_career_Why

Dear Readers,

Thanks for valuable discussions, especially thanks to Jim F Malone, Kjartan Skogly Kversøy, @Jose Luis Da Silva, Eberhard Weber . In summary:

- most people agree that all is important;

- a few tend to argue in favor of the first;

- many of us prefer the others.

The question is: without the ethical and moral principles, is one still a good professor (person)? Will s/he be a role model or a defect?

Solid in his taught courses and ethics.

And thanks to you Quan for a very good question, and an excellent summary of the many interesting contributions.

Thanks Michael Uebel for sharing your opinions and expertise in this thread since March. It gives the readers another view point from a senior at a 'beyond standard university.

Dear Readers,

Thanks for your valuable discussions. The main question is: without the ethical and moral principles, is one still a good professor (person)? Will s/he be a role model or a defect?

It's an open discussion to understand how world-wide scholars view about this subject.

Of course morals.

Certainly morals.

THanks Nirmala S.V.S.G

Joseph Tham Thanks for your comments made previously. Appreciate it. Sorry that your last question about local gov officials hasn't been answered yet. But is it related to the moral concerns of the lady professor?

Dear Readers,

Regarding to the main question, the latest responses are in favour of (1: citation, 3: morals). As far as research impact is concerned, do you think the impact should belong to the collaborators instead of the professor, who have a lack of ethics and morals? It's an open discussion to see how scholars view about this matter.

Having all other attributes without a good moral life amounts to nothing. A good professor should be a morally upright person.