Early Christianity (after 100 CE) functioned economically as a separate group within the Roman Empire and Catholocism is recognised for its extraordinary wealth: Islam was constructed by merchants and has a clear economic programme.
The earliest religions and temples were constructed for economic and political purposes.
Religion and economics are strongly entwined. Rather religion cannot survive without economic basis to support it. A religion flourishes based on the economic conditions of its adherents.
Davinder, a nice reply and I am searching for something clearer. In the European middle ages, the monasteries served to provide services and as a point for exchange and transmission of goods.
Dr. Wilkin! The info you have shared, is equally true for various Asian religions, sects and cults too, in the contemporary times. Most of these organizations are providing medical, psychological and educational services to their adherents. In return these are getting donations/financial gains. Even in middle ages religious organizations in Asia were providing educational and medical services to their adherents.
Devinder, even further back. Probably before the Christian hospital polytheistic groups were offering medical care,but what economic role?
Hi Wilkin! I wonder what precisely you are looking for in terms of economic role. If you can elaborate on the issue, maybe I can provide some input.
Devinder, earlier religions played economic roles by paying for merchant travels, bartering, etc. They also might act as a place of exchanging ideas and contacts.
Hi Wilkin! I agree that earlier religious centers often played economic roles by encouraging travels to religious places. These centers also acted as trade centers and places for bartering, etc., alongwith acting as great places for exchanges of ideas and networking.
Prof. Wilkins...I don't believe that "earlier temples and religions were constructed for political and economic reasons."
Ancient Kemet... for example, did not place economic value in Finance or Politics. Their value system was MAAT. Truth Justice Righteousness and Equity.
Economy was a by-product of worship not the other way around. The Temple and the Palace had different functions but the same goal. Pleasing AMEN and living in harmony with the Neters.
The palace used agricultural (wheat) and minerals (salt) as economy... not gold, silver or bronze coins for labor, trade and worship.
Likewise, the Temple used agricultural ( wheat) and minerals (incense) as debit relief (forgiveness) homage (respect) and sacrifice (giving back to the Givers) as Spiritual Economy....As Above, So Below!
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rev-Anthony-T-Johnese
Rev. I value your contribution but although correct in some measure, it is not in others. The earliest temples in Sumeria dealt with both the administration of the economy and allocation of resources and although a spiritual side might be found in Egypt, often poor Egyptians and the elite worshipped different deities. The principal deities were closely involved with the rule of the different elite groups.
It is wrong to conclude that the spirituality of ancient peoples, to the degree it existed, was the same as more recent, especially monotheistic, religions. Ancient religions were part of the political and economic structure.
Yes, I do agree with you on Sumeria, Mesopotamia even Ancient Asian Spiritual Centers.
But, Kemet...not Egypt...and the Dravidians of Southern India lived "The Way" that which Yeshua...not Jesus (because there are no "J" in the Phonecian/ Ancient Hebrew/Greek alpha - bet system) taught.
If you could provide sources on your theological views I would appreciate it.
Elitism was not the original standard in Kemet's "pre-dynasty."
The corruption began with the 1st Dynasty and continued..... hence the word Dynasty.
The statute in Nebuchadnezzar's dream... is a depiction of pure rule of a Chosen One ... people and governor ... the Golden Age.
Thanks Professor!
Rev. J
Rev.
You will find papers on here, if you choose to look, fully referenced on these matters. I do think that within certain parameters you are picking and choosing in order to establish modern terms (last thousand years) in the distant past. Your response indicates you harbour some belief in your own authority on these matters-possibly true to a limited extent.
Ma'at was sensibly a practical matter symbolised by a god, as the Egyptian gods often referenced ideologies or singular concepts. Horus represented kingship, etc. For a beginning look into the great Jan Assmann who stresses the political essence of many early religions.
Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the Rise of Monotheism (George L. Mosse Series in the History of European Culture, Sexuality, and Ideas) Jun 17, 2008
From Akhenaten to Moses: Ancient Egypt and Religious Change Jun 1, 2014
by Jan Assmann
The separation of religion into primarily spiritual dimensions is a relatively recent phenomenon.
Stanley Wilkin ,
Dear Sir,
I respect your inquiry but may I know how Islam was set up by merchants? Please Explain that.
Sincerely,
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Md-Zafar-Bhuiyan-3
Muhammad was a merchant and speculation suggests merchant prophets who developed the religion-a national, anthropological Abrahamic religion that emerged in the 6th and 7th century based on religious discourse in the Near and Middle East in response to the ongoing rejection of Hellenistic ideas still prevalent there.
I understand you may prefer a supernatural aetiology but nothing indicates this.
"Your response indicates you harbour some belief in your own authority on these matters-possibly true to a limited extent."
I will have to depart from your assertion...of me. Since, I've been taught and believe that man is without knowledge... we can only discover, and build a reference to that discovery.
So, I have no authority in scholarship... I rely upon the works of indigenous people... that understand their own cultural experiences and their instructions handed down to later generations.
Not foreigners, who have no clue of Ancient Traditional Teachings...even with the Armarna Tablets or Cuniform Tablets in their possession. They lack insight, they lack intuition and they lack connection to and with the cultural.
That was taught to me... first class in Islamic Studies @Temple University by the Iman of the Islamic Center. He happens to be white with blue eyes. He said one has to have emersion into a Way of Living to discovery its essence.
That is not something one can acquire by reading someone else's research and documentation.
I too, would like to know how Islam was setup by merchant?
Dear Rev.
I have responded to my assertions on /setup by merchants/ and firmly stand by my assertions. Nevertheless, this is not a question about religious belief and experience and certainly not to do with your need to describe the ethnicity of an Iman or any other preacher,. Completely irrelevant surely here or anywhere else?
Your claims to how you describe or uphold the authenticity of experience in religion or any other state or dimension are nothing to do with this question either. You appear to want to change this into a discussion on religious experience, but other questions on this site will allow you to do that.
Yes Professor, I agree with you on the irrelevancy of ethnicity.
My point is simple. Cultural Bias!
I never mentioned ethnicity... I mentioned an Academic Professor of Islamic Studies...who is the local Iman in North Philadelphia.
Someone, from a cultural point of view, would normally be rejected in this community because of perceived biases based on skin pigmentation.
However, his acceptance in this predominantly black and Muslim community is based on his 18 years living in Saudi Arabia. Total emersion into a culture not his own, to understand their faith tradition.
That's called Respect...in my hood!
Aretha Franklin agrees!
I understand that you are smart. But, culture plays a significant role in the way people place value on "The Other" or lack of value.
Some cultures don't value money or political power the same as others do... professor.
So, when you use a definitive statement...
"The earliest religions and temples were constructed for economic and political purposes" a red flag goes up. Cultural Bias!
Here is the evidence of Cultural Bias... You mentioned two "Scholars" on the subject of Black Kemet...but you use the Eurocentric term... Egypt.... the two "men" you mentioned are both from Germany.
"Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the Rise of Monotheism (George L. Mosse Series in the History of European Culture, Sexuality, and Ideas) Jun 17, 2008
From Akhenaten to Moses: Ancient Egypt and Religious Change Jun 1, 2014
by Jan Assmann"
That's what I was trying to point out to you and you never got it.
Peace Love and Soul Train 🚂
Rev. J
Rev, I take your point but reject it. The fact that Assmann is German need not affect his grasp of academic points or historical data. As someone who began as a historian can I suggest that you may yourself have a limited grasp of historian's processes? Perhaps you assume the Egypt of the past obeys the same rules you wish to apply now, or that ethnicity does in fact damn the viewpoint?
You are of course are assuming bias on my part because I do not necessarily share your viewpoint, indicating not just a divergence but prejudice on your side. If I shared your academic viewpoint I would not be culturally biased? If you knew history you would not be biased against those who do?
Oh, I have lived in Egypt, West Africa and Asia. I now once again live in a culture I was not born into, having largely rejected that culture. There is a saying from your own revered books: Take the mote out of your own eye.......
Hmmmm..... again, in my hood...
His - Story has been written by the Colonizers not the Colonized.
I live in North America...here we had colonies...along with Colonizers.
We had kidnapped victims who had their own culture: languages and ways of living... outside of North America. Mind you...they came from the "Merchant Class."
Mercantile Exchanges required groups of Merchants to possess multiple language skills in order to trade.
Yet, there are very few His - Story books in the world from those Legacy Merchants...that gave details of events from the "Others" historical perspective.
One exception of course... Olaudah Equiano.
"Olaudah Equiano, known for most of his life as Gustavus Vassa, was a writer and abolitionist from, according to his memoir, the Eboe region of the Kingdom of Benin. Enslaved as a child in Africa, he was taken to the Caribbean and sold as a slave to a Royal Navy officer."
So, your friends and colleagues of His -tory... well, people's motives need to come into question.
Funny, how you would leave out the entire quote from my revered books....
A perfect example of His - Story - ans. " You Hypocrites... Take the mote out of your own eye "First" then you can "See" so, you can take the splinter out of your brother's eye."
Yes, I have prejudices! We all do. It's called "Culture." Follow along Professor.
I'm not trying to hide my prejudices... But, my research and work is non prejudicial. I don't need to see the world from a myopic view.
I'm cool 😎 with Kemet, Sumeria and Indus Valley aboriginals laying down the foundation of "pure science, algebra, Sacred Geometry, architectural phenomenons, medicine... medicine... medicine"...one person comes to mind... Imhotep.
Look in the world today...at ancient engineering projects. Which cultural sites have the most...oldest intact structures from 4000 years ago.
These facts are missing from His -tory books in primary education. They are not readily available until post-secondary education. And, how many people in the world have that privilege to attend.
Peace Love and Soul Train 🚂
Rev. J
Friar Thomas Nairn referencing the money economy that arrived c1100 in Europe points to the increase in mendicant orders, often itinerate, and their begging practices (https://www.chausa.org/publications/health-progress/article/march-april-2017/'begging-without-shame'-medieval-mendicant-orders-relied-on-contributions). One reason he suggests for the arrival of the money economy was the nobility using more land to grow foodstuff, rent out and build up sheep stocks. In effect, Britains economy changed. Did the friars have a hand in that economic change through increasing the wealth of the church (allowing for building works that no doubt allowed for money to enter the local economies through the hire of craftsmen and labour). One less attractive side effect was the selling of bits of long-deceased saints body parts, and trivia as religious iconography. Nevertheless, it is clear that the church played an important part in the growing British economy of the time perhaps equal to that of the nobility and the growing middle-class. .
Yes, economy has a role in religious institutions.
I understand and agree with you on most of your facts and even some of your assessments.
Geoffrey Chaucer writes in Canterbury Tales of pilgrims on Pilgrims' Way heading towards Canterbury Cathedral for the shrine of Thomas a' Becket. They are not the poor. Such travels allowed for wealth transmission, at least along the route.
Islam and capitalism....According to Benedikt Koehler in Early Islam and the Birth of Capitalism, Lexington, 2014, Muhammad or rather those around him revised economics within Medina setting it up to produce wealth. Muhammad and those involved in the Abrahamic Arabic religion were entrepreneurs. Creating wealth was, unlike in Christianity, seen as a good thing. Being a good Believer meant material as well as heavenly success (https://www.alislam.org/friday-sermon/printer-friendly-summary-2015-04-24.html).
Muhammad, it is said and the early Abramic preachers and prophets, organised Fair Trade, and market price controls were lifted. While this might be true the establishment of the madinah, already evident before Islam, and its central role with the rejection of the polis Hellenistic cities in the Near East may have made wealth easier to achieve. We cannot be sure that the system was not common in pre-Islamic sanctuaries.
Although wealth creation was welcomed under the Believers, it is likely these methods were practised elsewhere and simply utilised effectively by Islam, at least by the 9th century under the Abbasid dynasty when a lot of these social improvements occurred.
In pre-Islamic Arabic culture harams were where disputes could be settled and contracts exchanged, where violence was forbidden. It is possible that merchant exchanges and agreements were dealt with here leading to the results supposedly created under Islam, but here in an embryo form. Mahmood Ibrahim sees the pre-Islamic haram as the basis of Islamic economics (Social and Economic Conditions in Pre-Islamic Mecca, International Journal of Middle East Studies, 14 (1982). )
Rev.
I know as much about the matters you disclose as you do. That does not give you or anyone else the right to express racism yourself. That the history of Africa must be properly, and academically, revised is, yes, a necessity. For example, there is some evidence that Egyptian architecture was based on Upper Egyptian culture, possibly and likely to have been Nubian (for want of a better term). But these things need to be properly proved with exact research.
How does your racism affect and improve such matters?
"How does your racism affect and improve such matters?"
(Source: Professor Stanley Wilkin)
Unlike yourself... Professor... I don't believe that "Race" in it and of itself is a real attribute of biological functions nor physiology.
You may not know professor... that the idea of a "classification" of humanoids (the idea of race) was first developed by a Swedish Botanist..... yes..... a farmer named Carl Linnaeus.
Lol....a farmer named Carl... someone should write a screenplay on this one. A Comedy!
So, the idea of race doesn't hold up well in Genetic Science... e.g. The Human Genome Project.
Not only does it proves that race is only an idea....of a farmer named Carl... but, it provides evidence through DNA sequencing molecular structures, that humans ... mainly those from Kemet are homosapiens, while others are hybrids of Neanderthals and Denisovans.
So... Professor, a person truly cannot be racist. They can be Species-ist or Superior -ist! But...only if they follow the science.
Peace Love and Soul Train 🚂
Rev. J
https://www.the-scientist.com/features/neanderthal-dna-in-modern-human-genomes-is-not-silent/
Okay... I am going to write that screenplay about - A Farmer Named Carl™-
Carl Linnaeus started school at the age of 10. He was not a bad student, but he did not excel. He continued to work hard on his own private botanical studies.
By the end of his secondary schooling, his teachers had formed the opinion that he was not bright enough to go to university. His immense interest in and knowledge of botany were ignored – it was not a ‘proper subject.’ His teachers expected their students to be skillful in Greek, Hebrew, mathematics and theology, but Carl was not especially interested in these subjects.
(Source: Brittannica.com)
George Gotsis and Stavros Drakopoulis reference a religious market within the Roman Empire. That market need not have been only Christian as the different religions functioned in similar ways. More than the others though Christianity early established a state within a state functioning through their own economic reasoning.
Although Peter 2 references payment for preaching and the nature of grace and favour, the internal growth of independent resources-a matter later dealt with by early Islam. Providence allied with holiness. Within the group meanwhile, loans taken or offered were backed up by holiness. Resulting thereby in a thriving Christian economy separate from that of the Roman (pagan) state.
THE ECONOMICS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIAN RHETORIC: THE CASE OF THE SECOND PETRINE EPISTLE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT History of Economic Ideas
Vol. 19, No. 1 (2011), pp. 17-54 (38 pages)
Hi Rev,
My last reply to you.
Please, if you can, do not tell me what I think. You are clearly not on here to discuss the topic but to argue on other matters not to do with the topic. Your learning seems to have come from internet sites and there is no evidence of any academic or scientific background in your responses or your profile.
I will respond with you if and when your own responses have something to do with the question and not evidence of your own well-formed bigotry.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3163752?seq=1
The Cappadocian Fathers built a Church with their own money.
They were an Aristocrat Family....
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3164966?seq=1
Cappadocian fathers Social Class
I do understand your dilemma here Professor.
The Owl on my profile... represents the mascot from my alma mater... Temple University...a research university in North Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.... Broad Street to be exact.
Double Majored in Comparative Religious Studies and Sociology- Research Methods and Development CLA 2004... Go Owls!!!!
Attended Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California... At the time of my course studies....Fuller was ranked the 3rd seminary in the US.
1st. Dallas Theological - Evangelical Preaching
2nd. Union Theological - Social Justice
3rd. Fuller Theological - Academic Research & Publishing
I don't like my coursework to published because it glorifies me and not GOD.
I am very comfortable in the background...I don't need to be advertised.
But...it"s okay not to reply to Racist's Bigots like me... I do understand the reputation you are trying to up hold...Good luck!
Rev. J
https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/egypt/egypt-parades-22-royal-mummies-through-cairo-in-unique-global-event-1.1196290
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