Does this thought experiment, and how I think things would progress, represent the understanding of the 'standard model' of the universe? If not, where does it break down?
I am in a satellite, orbiting a planet, which in turn is orbiting a star.
The star is travelling at high speed radially into a super-massive non-rotating black hole (BH). It is so big that there is negligible tidal forces at the Event Horizon (EH).
When the star reaches the EH, my satellite is at local ‘noon’, and motion is toward the star.
Before the star reaches the event horizon, the motion of the planet (and possibly my satellite) will shift from being purely in orbit around the star to being in orbit around the center of mass of the star/BH system. This will induce a measureable tidal effect, due to the mass distribution. We’re moving quickly toward the BH, so the difference in the orbit won’t be noticed for long.
As the star reaches the event horizon, the observable tidal effect is eliminated. We’re still in orbit around the star/BH center of mass, but we can no longer distinguish between the two masses. We feel the gravity of both the star and the rest of the BH, but we can’t ‘see’ them.
As my satellite approaches the EH, I continue in orbit around the planet/star/BH system, even though I can’t see the star. I can see the planet (though it will look funny), and feel the effect of gravity from the planet and the star+BH.
As my heels pass through the EH (I’m going feet first), there are no signals that can go from my heels to my head. Depending on how fuzzy quantum gravity is, the signals may be cut off to some pretty small distances, so that chemical bonds are broken, or atomic bonds, or sub-atomic bonds. In any case, I am going to be rendered into a high-energy soup (at some scale, and thus at some ‘height’). My conjecture is that I’m converted to equal parts matter and energy. No spaghetti for me; I’m smoking hot soup.
Unobservable conjecture:
But that soup still feels the pull of gravity of the star, planet, and BH. Now that I’m inside of the BH, I think I will be able to detect the spatial differences between the masses again. I’ll never see the soup that was the star again, as its world line is being drawn into the BH faster than I am (so it will never release light that will appear in my rearward-facing light cone). But I can feel its gravity – I’m still in orbit around it.
I can ‘see’ the planet when it comes through, too. It too gets rendered to soup, and scatters in all directions. In fact, because of the curvature of space time, that soup occupies most of my rearward facing light cone. As time goes on, it occupies less and less of my rearward light cone, allowing me to see the soup that was other bodies that fell through the EH after I did. They will fall through in pretty much the same manner, creating pretty much the same smear (equal parts matter and energy?) with variations that are dependent on the sharpness of the knife that rendered it (quantum gravity).
Oh, good point. I've edited my original thought experiment to include 'non-rotating' to the description, to prevent the accretion. Thank you.
And my understanding of what SH said about the EH is that it isn't a one-way journey only. Just mostly. So the Swartzchild Radius still has meaning, just a different meaning that they are still trying to understand. But that actually makes the conclusions of this thought experiment more interesting.
There exist no black holes at all. Their existence is only an artefact of an inaccurate application of GRT. Instead every collapsing object can find an equilibrium configuration without horizon, See my paper 1408.0086 in the viXra Archive.
DN: It is so big that there is negligible tidal forces at the Event Horizon (EH).
The first thing you need to appreciate is that the event horizon is not a unique location in space, it depends on the observer. Think of looking out to sea from the top of a cliff, there might be a small island at that point. Now get in a boat and sail out to it and you don't fall off the edge of the world, you can see more sea beyond.
In your experiment, as long as the SMBH is large enough, the satellite and planet keep orbiting the star unaffected as they cross the radius that a distant observer would consider to be their horizon.
There's a lot more about this on Andrew Hamilton's web pages (linked).
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schw.shtml
I think that in a standard RG view, when you go through the Schwarzchild radius, the metric signature change !!! and that it is'nt really physical. The reality of BH is for me doubtful. The geometrical interpretation of the Schwarzchild metric has to be re-think.
The units of H are km/s per Mpc. There are 3.1*1019 km in 1 Mpc, the correct speed is just under 10% of the speed of light.
You are quite right y our planet has been subsumed- you don't feel anything because you are soup.
There is enough gravity to mash everything up.
But, unfortunately the maths of GTR implies infinite curvature and zero time passage at the black hole event horizon and the black hole becomes a singularity- and yet the black hole has a radius
But yet another paradox arises IN GTR if time stops at the event horizon (frozen star) no matter would fall in hence black hole could not accumulate matter, and all the in-falling matter would be situated at or near the event horizon
The solution is to alter the maths of GR.
Additionally GR falls down in a number of areas, so any new maths should also resolve these problems
Yes GR works in the weak fields of the the solar system, and Intermediate
fields of neutron stars.
1). It produces infinite density singularities in the very strong fields
such as in black holes.
2).It does not necessarily explain dark matter in galaxy cores where we
know super-massive black holes exist and the galactic dark matter
therein,
3). It does not explain dark mater present in galactic halo's,and galactic
clusters such as the bullet cluster,
4).It does not explain the presence of cosmological dark matter as a whole.
5). It has not yet been fully corroborated by the studies of neutron stars
and in black holes.
6). It does not easily explain the presence of dark energy and cannot be
translated in quantum gravity.
7). It predicts that time stops at the event horizon
Here I enclose a number of publications which explain all of these
phenomena, whilst agreeing with the results of GR where it has been
thoroughly tested.
1).First to obviate the infinite density singularities.
1a)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/32897680_An_advanced_dynamic_adaptation_of_Newtonian_equations_of_gravity?ev=prf_pub
1b)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269689554_The_formulation_of_Dynamic_Newtonian_advanced_gravity_DNAg?ev=prf_pub
2).Secondly we explain the presence of dark matter at the centre of the
galaxy.
2a)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228858219_Advances_in_Black_Hole_Gravitational_Physics_and_Cold_Dark_Matter_Modelling._The_Gravity_of_Dark_Matter
3) Thirdly it is possible to explain the presence of dark matter in the
galactic halo.
3a)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269689929_Advances_in_Black_Hole_Physics_and_Dark_Matter_Modelling_of_the_Galactic_Halo?ev=prf_pub
4). It is able to explain the presence of cosmological dark matter
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/32897680_An_advanced_dynamic_adaptation_of_Newtonian_equations_of_gravity
5). It is corroborated in neutron stars (including Data from radiation
damping ) and is corroborated by black hole studies.
5a)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/32888463_An_advanced_modification_of_dynamicgravitation
5b).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269667939_Corroboration_of_Dynamic_Black_Hole_Gravitational_Physics_from_Observations_of_Cygnus_X-1
6) it explains dark energy and translates into quantum gravity
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/32899306_String_quintessence_and_the_formulation_of_advanced_quantum_gravity
7). It does not offer infinite time dilation at the event horizon
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287213872_Finite_Gravitational_Time_Dilation_In_Black_Holes_Using_Dynamic_Newtonian_Advanced_Gravity_DNAg
Article An advanced dynamic adaptation of Newtonian equations of gravity
Article The formulation of Dynamic Newtonian advanced gravity, DNAg
Article Advances in Black Hole Gravitational Physics and Cold Dark M...
Article Advances in Black Hole Physics and Dark Matter Modelling of ...
Article An advanced modification of dynamic gravitation
Article Corroboration of Dynamic Black Hole Gravitational Physics fr...
Article String quintessence and the formulation of advanced quantum gravity
Article Finite Gravitational Time Dilation In Black Holes Using Dyna...
AW: But, unfortunately the maths of GTR implies infinite curvature ...
No, the curvature is finite at the horizon and can be quite low, easily survivable for a SMBH.
AW: ... and zero time passage at the black hole event horizon
That depends on your choice of coordinates, it is finite in proper time.
AW: and the black hole becomes a singularity- and yet the black hole has a radius
It becomes singular only at r=0 and that is an extrapolation ignoring quantum effects which would become infinite. That's where work is needed.
AW: 2, 3, 4).It does not explain the presence of cosmological dark matter as a whole.
Why would GR say anything about a form of matter, that's the province of particle physics. You can't expect a theory of gravity to explain why one particular form of matter doesn't interact with photons.
AW: 5). It has not yet been fully corroborated by the studies of neutron stars
and in black holes.
The EoS for degenerate matter is not yet known but there is no suggestion that GR is not entirely valid.
AW: 6). It does not easily explain the presence of dark energy
Yes it does, current measurements find no discrepancy with a Cosmological Constant and versions with "quintessence", a time-varying version of the constant are somewhat constrained by the Planck results.
AW: and cannot be translated in quantum gravity.
There we agree, that is what many people have been working on for some decades. Good luck cracking that one.
AW: 7). It predicts that time stops at the event horizon
That depends on your choice of coordinates and gravitational time dilation is a well tested effect in the weak field regime.
@ Dishman.
Interesting response have you read any of the papers listed. But then why should you clearly we have all the answers.
so the answer to number 1. no time passes so how can anybody fall in
2,3,4 iF YOU HAD READ THE PApers to understandDARK MATTER FULLY - AND IT IS NOT A PARTICLE.
5. lOOK CAREFULLyAT THE PAPERS there are flaws and crack in GTR
6.GTR always asatisfactory answer to dark energy???
7. Hre we go agaIN no time = nobody passes EH. The paper again shows flaws in GTR in the results of time dilation in GTR.
Paradoxes abound in GTR and Black hole physics.
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