Dear s h s,

Since the wave function was established by Schrödinger to represent the resonance state of the electron in the hydrogen atom, and by extension in any atomic orbital, it makes no sense trying to apply it to bodies that are not in resonance state.

Collapsing the wave function simply means theoretically stopping the resonance motion of an electron so it can be localized within its resonance volume.

Best Regards

André

Of course-that's the statement that the Earth isn't in a superposition of states, but in a single state.

It's the expression of the fact that the quantum fluctuations are negligible.

@Stam Nicolis

My dear Stam Nicolis, why negligible?

Because if they weren't negligible, the Earth would be in a superposition of states and it would be possible to measure the relative phases. The way the Earth moves shows that it moves according to the classical equations of motion, that have a unique solution and that's the state the Earth's in.

@Stam Nicolis

My dear Stam Nicolis, thank you...I come to you with another doubt...

Dear s h s,

Since the wave function was established by Schrödinger to represent the resonance state of the electron in the hydrogen atom, and by extension in any atomic orbital, it makes no sense trying to apply it to bodies that are not in resonance state.

Collapsing the wave function simply means theoretically stopping the resonance motion of an electron so it can be localized within its resonance volume.

Best Regards

André

The wavefunction in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with any resonance phenomenon-that's, simply, wrong.

Dear Stam,

You write: " The wavefunction in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with any resonance phenomenon-that's, simply, wrong."

It is not wrong, quite the contrary. It is this discovery by de Broglie in 1923 that gave Schrödinger the very idea to use a wave function to describe the hydrogen orbitals.

You seem to have missed quite a bit of information on the origin of the introduction of the wave function and the historical fact that it was meant to represent a resonance state.

In 1923, De Broglie wrote with reference to the electron stabilized in the hydrogen ground state:

"l'onde de fréquence ν et de vitesse c/β doit être en résonance sur la longueur de la trajectoire."

"the wave of frequency ν and velocity c/β must be in resonance on the whole length of the trajectory."

Ref: De Broglie, L. (1923) Ondes et Quanta. Comptes rendus T.177 (1923) 507-510.

http://www.academie-sciences.fr/pdf/dossiers/Broglie/Broglie_pdf/CR1923_p507.pdf

The following year, de Broglie published two more notes, in one of which he mentioned that from this viewpoint, Bohr's famous "frequency condition law" could be interpreted as involving some sort of "beat" of "pulsation" ("un battement" in the original French text), that is, a resonance state associating the frequency of the emitted wave to the initial electron stationary state and to its final stationary state.

Two years later Schrödinger introduced the wave function to account for this measurable condition.

Ref: Einstein, A., Schrödinger, E., Pauli, W., Rosenfeld, L., Born, M., Joliot-Curie, I. & F., Heisenberg, W., Yukawa, H., et al. (1953) Louis de Broglie, physicien et penseur. Éditions Albin Michel, Paris. Page 462.

Ref: De Broglie, L. (1924) Sur la définition générale de la correspondance entre onde et mouvement, Comptes rendus de l'Académie des Sciences. (Paris) 179, 39.

Ref: De Broglie, L. (1924) Sur un théorème de Bohr, C. R. Acad. Sci. (Paris) 179, 676, Comptes rendus de l'Académie des Sciences. (Paris) 179, 39.

Einstein initially disagreed that the wave function could represent a resonance state, but he recognized his understanding of the fact in 1952:

"Ich will dem zusammen mit Frau B. Kaufman verfassten Beitrag zu diesem Bande einige Worte vorausschicken in der einzigen Sprache, in der ich mich mit einige Leichtigkeit ausdrücken kann. Es sind Worte der Entschuldigung. Sie sollen zeigen, warum ich, trotzdem ich De Broglie visionäre Entdeckung des inneren Zusammenhanges zwischen discreten Quantenzuständen und Resonanzzuständen in relativ jungen Jahren bewundernd miterlebt habe, doch unablässig nach einem Wege gesucht habe, das Quantenrätsel auf anderem Wege zu lösen oder doch wenigstens eine Lösung vorbereiten zu helfen."

"I will begin my contribution prepared for this book in collaboration with Mrs. Kaufman with a few words in the only language in which I can express myself with any ease. They are words to express regret. They are meant to show why - although I observed admiringly in my years of relative youth the genial discovery by Louis de Broglie of the intimate relation between the discrete quantum states and resonance states - I nevertheless ceaselessly searched for some manner to resolve the enigma of quanta by some other means, or at least help in preparing such a solution."

Ref: Einstein, A., Schrödinger, E., Pauli, W., Rosenfeld, L., Born, M., Joliot-Curie, I. & F., Heisenberg, W., Yukawa, H., et al. (1953) Louis de Broglie, physicien et penseur. Éditions Albin Michel, Paris. Page 4.

In the same reference (Page 16), Schrödinger clearly expressed his frustration for the neglect of any research in this direction in the chapter that he contributed:

"For it must have given to de Broglie the same shock and disappointment as it gave to me, when we learnt that a sort of transcendental, almost psychical interpretation of the wave phenomenon had been put forward, which was very soon hailed by the majority of leading theorists as the only one reconcilable with experiment, and which has now become the orthodox creed, accepted by almost everybody, with a few notable exceptions."

Schrödinger and de Broglie were convinced that the frequency of an emitted quantum could be produced only by means of a progressive mechanical process dependent on the resonance characteristics of an electron initial stationary state, and whose emission mechanically determined in a clearly describable manner the altered resonance characteristics of the final stationary states and that solving this problem would be useful not only in spectroscopy, but also in chemistry.

He expressed the same frustration about the neglect for research in the electron resonance states in this ref:

Schrödinger, E. (1952) Are there quantum jumps? Brit. J. Philos. Sci. 3 109,233.

https://philpapers.org/rec/SCHATQ-3

All of these references are still available, to be accessed by interested researchers.

Irrespective of opinions on this issue, research on resonance states needs to finally be resumed for the last hurdles to be resolved.

The one thing that is wrong is the historical neglect of research in this direction.

Best Regards

André

@ André Michaud ...

my dear André Michaud , it's true...

Dear s h s,

I have a paper coming soon (about 1 week) that will elaborate in much greater details about these resonance states. Title "The Hydrogen Atom Fundamental Resonance States"

Best Regards

André

Quantum description of macro-object is a very popular problem.

Different thought experiments are related with the problem: Schrödinger's cat, Einstein's mouse, Wigner's friend. Everett multi-world interpretation of quantum mechanics is an attempt to solve the problem by removing wave-function collapse from theory.

Actually I present you a list of key-words.

You can search them for further reading.

I think, it is better, then an attempt to write a philosophical treatise here in researchgate.

If the whole Nature is the quantum system, where is the classical observer then?

I am very interested in your paper, Andre. I hope, that You will show it us.

Hi Eugene,

Hope you are still having fun in the "philosophy" thread. I have not visited it in a while.

I found that the "classical observer" always observes the universe from his macroscopic perspective.

I also found that the electromagnetic quantum resonance systems of which our macroscopic and astronomic observable universe is made belong exclusively to the submicroscopic level.

De Broglie made the historic discovery that these submicroscopic resonance states obey the same resonance laws as resonance states observable at our macroscopic level. But from the data then available, it was not yet possible to relate the then not clearly defined electromagnetic properties of the electron to the wave function that summarily describes these submicroscopic resonance volumes.

From the more extensive confirmed data now available about the electromagnetic properties of electrons, I discuss the electromagnetic harmonic oscillation properties that the electron must possess as a resonator in order to explain the resonance volume that Schrödinger meant to describe with a wave function, as well as the electromagnetic interactions between the elementary charged particles making up atomic structures that could explain electronic and nucleonic orbitals stability from the perspective that de Broglie and Schrödinger brought to light.

My paper is now in the final stages of typesetting and proofreading and should become available within about 1 week.

Glad to see that this is of interest to you. I will post a link in this thread so you can easily access it.

Best Regards

André

"Philosophy" thread is fantastic, Andre. Now, Mohinder Kumar is arguing with Manuel Morales. See and enjoy!

Thanks for the tip Eugene.

Dear s h s,

Here is a link to the paper I mentioned previously:

Article The Hydrogen Atom Fundamental Resonance States

Best Regards

André