I don't believe the andragogy concept is out of date at al. In fact, in a life-long learning world, the principles of adult learning seem more relevant than ever. Perhaps my strong feelings about this stem from my strong belief that adults DO learn very differently from children and that therefore pedagogy and andragogy are very different concepts and strategies.

Another topic that I feel is become increasingly more relevant and urgent as the world's population ages and life expectancies increase is WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT. The planet will have increasing numbers of older citizens, and keeping people prepared and active in the world of work through sound application of andragogy principles will become increasingly critical in maintaining a productive and self-actualized citizenry.

And do different phases of adulthood then require different teaching/learning approaches. Is the same andragogy right for 25 year olds and 65 year olds?

Depending on what you mean by pedagogy or androgogy and whether the two concepts mean different things or not. For some the two are synonymous while still some prefer to define them theoretically as differing in meaning with pedagogy referring to teaching of children while androgogy refers to teaching of adults. However, these are contestable concepts and may not really matter in normative arguments about teaching and learning in the era of Lifelong Learning (LLL). But when one talks about LLL in the early childhood education for children between 0-6 years and even within the primary and secondary schools, the term pedagogy rather than androgogy is most suitable. Yet one may prefer to use androgogy specifically to indicate reference to adult learners in adult education settings including university, further education and community education. Though pedagogy can also be used if one chooses to do so. Just know that 'androgogy' is a term promoted by Michael Knowles for adult education epistemological arguments, which many educationalists like myself do not regard as very important for any practical or meaningful advantages in adult education theorising.

In which ever way one chooses to analyse these concepts, it is important to note that teaching and learning in an era of LLL is constantly challenged by globalisation and neoliberalism. Given these implications, teaching and learning have been constantly re-defiined. For example, some argue that LLL, adult education and even the entire education system in our modern society have been hijacked by neoliberal thinking for instrumental purposes that tend to benefit largely capitalist labour market condition. At the same time teaching and learning have come to be framed along the LLL paradigm, which require constant upskilling and learing throughout the lifespan from cradle to grave. Emphasis has also been placed on 'all' people becoming Lifelong learners which means and entails possessing or developing the 'core competencies' (EC, 2006) needed for effective LLL commitment in the 21st century. All these means that what we mean traditionally as teaching and learning have become contingent and need re-conceptualising, but not in terms of pedagogy or androgogy per se.

Thanks Peter. I agree that there are issues with defining terms and that there are issues with colleagues agreeing that some constructs even exist. If we take a continuum approach, I just don't see how we can draw a line at the end of one phase (compulsory ed) and say that everything from here on is 'adult'. Surely we have different conceptions of adult education. this means that, for me, all education is pedagogy but that the form that it presents itself in changes.

Reading your second point begs the question - has lifelong learning been highjacked as a means of developing lifelong labour?

Hi Erik,

I am not very convinced about the hijacking argument which to me tend to be overly onesided and overemphasised; given that the benefit and mission of LLL is both economic in terms of employability as well as in terms of personal fulfilment and active citizenship with extended benefit to society as a whole. That people attend adult education to get certain specific job skills should not mean that LLL has been hijacked. I will argue that if such skill acquisition in terms of teaching and learning in today's era of LLL has been designed by the tutor-facilitator with the intent to develop the prerequisite core competencies for effective LLL commitment IN THE LEARNERS, the participants would have gained extensively. Any good and effective teacher always attempt as much to do this no matter which subject or course h/she MAY BE teaching or h/her students MIGHT have voluntarily come to learn.

In Queensland Australia, our syllabi (used to) talk about developing the 'Attributes of a Life Long Learner', implying that life long learning was more a state of mind, a disposition, than an aspect of pedagogy. I have taught from 7 years old to 40 year olds and personally do find the concept of androgogy outdated. For me it is subsumed in the generic term of pedagogy. The design of learning experiences suited to different learners is dependant on the learner's characteristics, which may be generally organised into sets correlated roughly with age/maturity but is also widely different for different types of learners at any age.

The excellent pedagogue, assesses the learner on the fly adapting learning experiences to make the most of the learner's characteristics at any point in time, which may change at another point in time.

As for the hijacking - of course it has in many western countries but it doesn't detract from the key value of LLL as a personal attribute to be developed (or at least not destroyed).

Since the beginning of the 1970’s we have witnessed the emergence of a new educational paradigm. Differing significantly from the traditional one, which was based on “preparing for life”, adopted by adults who try to instill society’s principles and values in children and adolescents, since this paradigm is essentially on a lifelong scale. A special interaction has been created between education and each member of the community. As in Blue Mountain, studied by Giles and Hargreaves (2006, pp. 136-150) “the school established the idea of being a “learning community” as the core of its mission.” Then the andragogy construct, elaborated by Knowles (1984 and 1990), and explained later by Kathleen M. Brown (2006) “as the art and science to help others to learn”, appears to help governments and politicians to decide a better future for all. The concept of andragogy is out of date? We didn't arrive yet to the next station: life-long-learning for all.

I believe the principles of andragogy are extremely applicable to the concept of life-long learning. It is those principles of motivation, self-directed learning, applicability, etc in which the life-long learner survives and thrives in the quest to know more. The learning process for children seems like a forced task (i.e., children must go to school, children must learn). But for the adult who in charge of their learning experience, andragogy has its core an appreciation for different choices driven by individual perspectives.

I am a life-long learner - I love and cannot be deterred from learning. I have also been a teacher and a tutor for many years for students ages 14 - 50.

However, I see no value in pedogogy or andragogy for teaching students in these age groups.

These "-gogys" are attempts to codify teaching into a formulaic recipe, which is all right for trying to understand, in an abstract way, the idealized teaching/learning process.

However, I have found that you, as an effective teacher, are much better off to learn and understand heuristic models of what goes on physically in the brain when learning is taking place. Then, based on these models develop your own methodologies that are tailored to the particular students you have in a particular class, keeping in mind that the students, as adults have their own opinions and experience that they might want to share.

It will undoubtably require a lot more work, time, and thinking on your part, as a teacher, to prepare well-thought-out, innovative lesson plans that are successful.

Down to practice we bring to you a special type of Lifelong Learning organizations that have already existed in Portugal: The New Opportunities Centers. These organizations were composed generally by young people, with an intrinsic highly motivation and high level of training. Since 2000, a National System of Recognition, Validation and Certification of Competences (RVCC) was created in Portugal in the sequence of the principles stated by the Memorandum on Lifelong Learning (2000) and the so-called Lisbon Strategy (2000, 2005 e 2008). NOC’s were created with the main goal of implementing this system, so that adults could be qualified with a diploma either of basic or of secondary education. In order to make the context clear it seems relevant to highlight that NOC are officially defined in legal documents as gateways for Lifelong Learning. Adults who first come to a New Opportunities Center are interviewed and go through a so-called diagnosis step, devised to make adults aware of their competences and knowledge acquired throughout life (lifelong and life wide). It seems relevant to mention that each NOC had a technical-pedagogical team which integrates: The NOC Director, who represented the Center; The pedagogical Coordinator, who assumed pedagogic, technic and evaluation supervision; The diagnosis and “pathfinder” Counselor, who advised the adult regarding the best pathway to achieve a certification according to his/her own profile and life experience; The recognizing and validating competences Counselors, who counseled and guided the adult and coach the RVCC process; The Trainers of the different Key Competences Areas of the Key Competences Frames of Reference for Adult Education and Training (basic and upper secondary levels), who helped the adult to interpret references frame work and validate their competences; The Administrative Technical, who developed administrative work and front-office service. There was also an independent element that doesn’t belong to the technical-pedagogical team but it was crucial to the social recognition of the System: The External Evaluator.

I tend to agree with Peter regarding how the terms andragogy and pedagogy are interpreted and defined. What of heutagogy? Are we looking at these terms from the perspective of the 'learner' or the 'teacher'?

I have noted with interest additional definitions related to life long learning such as 'life wide' and 'life deep'. Perhaps these terms link more explicitly to adult learning as experiences deepen and beliefs and assumptions are more firmly held?

http://life-slc.org/docs/Banks_etal-LIFE-Diversity-Report.pdfLIFE-

I was browsing ResearchGate when I saw Erik's question, what a good one! I have worked in many aspects of education and have mostly been working with post Web2.0 models of learning for the past 7 years. Just recently I thought that we had under-appreciated just how much e-learning is an andragogic process, ( not least because I have focussed a lot on heutagogy recently). Andragogy not so much in terms of Knowles narrow definition of "adult learning" but focussing more learning to learn, as mentioned in discussion, through negotiating learning and discussing subjects. As part of the Learner-generated contexts Research group we developed the Open Context Model of Learning in which we talked of a PAH Continuum. That Teaching and Learning exist in a continuum in which learning is co-created, summary here in The Craft of Teaching; http://www.slideshare.net/fredgarnett/the-craft-of-teaching-2011.

So Andragogy as 'brokering' leaning as I call it is more useful in a lifelong learning role as part of redefining the professional skills of 'teachers'

As Vitor highlights in terms of Lifelong Learning and EU strategy we also took these ideas and applied them to the i2020 goals of integrating informal, non-formal and formal learning and developed the Emergent Learning Model (attached), which reconceptualises the roles in teaching and learning, and starts with social processes rather than institutions, which is where we are in 2013. I have developed 2 learning projects based on this Ambient Learning City & WikiQuals, both ongoing and exciting, if very hard work. (See my uploaded paper on CROS & WikiQuals).

Incidentally Stewart Hase (Mr Heutagogy) has a book on Self-Determined Learning, which is what I think we are discussing, published by Bloomsbury on September 26th

http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/self-determined-learning-9781441142771/

Several issues should be addressed: motivation, age problems, stress at work and time for learning. In lifelong learning sometimes one has to work as in a marathon, maintaining a regular rythm, but never stopping. If you stop, you are out!

A personal note:

I a 75 years old, and I have never stopped actively learning and applying what I learn when the time is right. I have an unquenchable thirst to learn. Even if I am busy, I will squeeze in time to learn. It's a compulsion. I feel when you stop learning, you may as well be dead.

I have a B.A. in Math (a liberal arts degree from UCSB), a Dip. Ed. in Education, I worked for 26 years as a researcher in the aerospace industry, and I now teach English as a Foreign Language.

I have difficulty comprehending what happens to children whose curiosity and eagerness to learn is stifled in a few short years.

Yes, the recent trends in adult education converted into lifelong learning