if we have electricity power with high penetration of renewable energy and i want to use the excess power to produce hydrogen. can anyone help me with new tariff for excess power since we want to encourage all electrolyser to produce hydrogen at off- peck periods?
Dear Abdullah,
I suppose there is no single answer to the question, as especially dedicated tariffs depend on the energy provider, the potential power consumption and the availability of the electrolysis to warrant for really consuming a noteworthy portion of excess power along with the possibility to regulate the consumption accurately.
It will most likely not be too promising to create hydrogen as electrolysis does not provide good efficiency and generating electricity by fuel cells is just as bad.
Fluctuating supply also will make it difficult for the electrolysis to operate stable.
If you want to create the hydrogen to store energy, batteries will be the more efficient, cheaper and more flexible solution.
Cheers - Martin
Dear Abdullah,
I suppose there is no single answer to the question, as especially dedicated tariffs depend on the energy provider, the potential power consumption and the availability of the electrolysis to warrant for really consuming a noteworthy portion of excess power along with the possibility to regulate the consumption accurately.
It will most likely not be too promising to create hydrogen as electrolysis does not provide good efficiency and generating electricity by fuel cells is just as bad.
Fluctuating supply also will make it difficult for the electrolysis to operate stable.
If you want to create the hydrogen to store energy, batteries will be the more efficient, cheaper and more flexible solution.
Cheers - Martin
Abdullah, may I ask what you want to use the hydrogen for? That is critical. If as an energy store to be turned back into electricity, just use nickel metal hydride batteries. They store energy in hydrogen, produced with a low overvoltage and hence efficiently, bind it to (usually) rare earth complexes very removably, and have a high return of energy for energy input. If you want an even longer lasting system, use nickel hydrogen batteries which last pretty well forever.
If you want the hydrogen as a fuel for use elsewhere - then what are you fuelling? Although it's straightforward to store, it's not easy. It is not very dense. You can burn it in air in conventional engines but I doubt the efficiency is over 40% when all the losses are taken into account. You will do a bit better with fuel cells but at a far higher price, so I don't think (at the moment) they are worth it.
People have proposed hydrogen many times as a universal 'clean' fuel - but the difficulties using it make it quite unattractive when all the issues have to be solved.
My goal to use hydrogen as a fuel , and for larg size scale of hydrogen production the electricity takes a large part of the cost my research is use electrolyser as DSM means that rum at off peak price and off elsewhere
I want to create tariff which low at off-peak and expensive at other times
Dear Abdulla;
To improve the profitability of hydrogen, there was the work of mixing hydrogen with carbon dioxide to produce methane and use it as fuel in conventional power plants.
Here is a document that could be useful to you
http://www.fvee.de/fileadmin/publikationen/Themenhefte/th2009-1/th2009-1_05_06.pdf
Cordially
A.A
Dear Amine
my work is to balance grid by absorbing the excess power in the case of high penetration of RE then use this hydrogen to produce the hydrogen just from the excess power , i need just a way to generate electricity tariff in the case of off and on peak
Hi Abdulla,
I saw the discussion following this question raised by you.
I will simply suggest an approach that will possibly help you to address the requirement mentioned in your last statement ("I need...off and on peak") on your own.
If you complete #1-5 with suitably realistic data, you should be able to meet your requirement without an kind of support !
With best wishes.
-Sanjay
It is economical and feasible to have pumped storage hydro power plant than the aforementioned methods for storing excess bulk power. It will be economically feasible if we consider the power prices at peak and off peak loads.
Since your idea is to to use the excess renewable energy generated to produce hydrogen for other uses and not for power generation again it is not a bad idea as long as we are clear about the applications. As for as tariff fixing is concerned a detailed cost benefit analysis has to be carried out in comparison to use of hydrogen in the specific applications with reference to other possible alternatives. Method suggested by Sanjay Roy can be considered and used for fixing up the cost of hydrogen.
If I may comment further - let us forget the difficulties of wide use of hydrogen at the moment, which are considerable - and address the issues of tariffs. Since we conventionally assess the viability of organisations by the difference between money in and money out, as long as your tariffs produce a positive result - that is a margin - you can make them anything you like. Instantaneous cost need bear no relationship to instantaneous price, and usually doesn't in any economic field. So you can make off peak - whatever that means - tariffs low and recover the cost via adjustment to on-peak tariffs. If you can't do this and remain competitive, then sadly it suggests that you don't have a good business model!
Best wishes.
If you have excess electricity from a renewable resource solar PV or wind turbines and you want to produce hydrogen gas, then you can direct this excess electric power to a water electrolyzer (some of some work at high pressure) where water is electrolyzed into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. You can then the hydrogen gas for future use as a feedstock to operate a PEM fuel cell and produce electricity on demand.
Hope this helps answer your question!
Hi Abdulla,
The concept of turning excess energy to Hydrogen is good but as mentioned by Martin, very inefficient and costly. A better approach could be generating synthetic gas which takes CO2 and creates natural gas. Therefore using this gas for power generation is carbon neutral. This requires much less infrastructure adaptation.
Hope this helps,
Kamyar
Martin's answer that batteries will be a better alternative is so true! Water is not a good substance to electrolyse - the overvoltage is too high which reduces efficiency. And often the electrolysis produces not just hydrogen but also oxygen (or chlorine . . .) at the other electrode. But hydrogen can be used as an efficient energy store - nickel hydroxide electrolyses much more easily than water, and is a reasonable conductor of electricity. On electrolysis it is converted to nickel oxyhydroxide, also a conductor. The hydrogen given off is absorbed in a rare earth complex. And that is basically a NiMH battery.
Dear Abdullah;
Look at this document, it can be interesting.http://www.fvee.de/fileadmin/publikationen/Themenhefte/th2009-1/th2009-1_05_06.pdf
For the economic viability of such a device, several elements must be considered. If the production of hydrogen with the excess of renewable energies is mixed with CO2 to produce fuel (CH4) for the production of electricity in gas turbines. Economically speaking this device can be interesting.
Currently, carbon sequestration projects are very expensive and not very reliable (several examples of defective projects). If the project is designed for carbon sequestration then one can have a profitability.
It is important to compare the cost-effectiveness of the project to carbon sequestration projects and not to energy production or storage. If one compares the economic profitability of the production of hydrogen with respect to energy storage it is clear that it is not obvious to arrive at an economic profitability.
Best regards.
A.A
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