Bob,

I have a lot of resources in this department. I'll look.

Perhaps you should extend your search, if allready not done, to the lineage "Duque de Estrada" [not Duke], which has an eagle (although not two-headed) in their coat of arms.

Bob,

I am coming up empty. The two-headed imperial Roman eagle is common in heraldry. It specifically does not necessarily represent one family, it is the other emblems and elements associated with it or differences such as what is clutched in its claws. The fields of stars is highly unusual. Stars in heraldry are rare, but when they occur it is usually one, three, or, normally, at most five. Fields of fleur de lis or stylized crosses are more much more common.

I'll keep looking.

Dear Antonio,

Thank you for your valuable suggestion. I have already looked rather extensively at the genealogies of five of the successive "Duques de Estrada" throughout the period of interest (Siglos XVI-XVII) without any encouraging findings. Perhaps I will look, again, as I did not find descriptions or images of the escudos for all relatives who might be of interest.

PS - it was the earliest (1st Estrada caballero in Spain, Sancho de Estrada) that was granted imperial [Holy Roman Emperor's] permission for use of the two-headed eagle (see attached from a 1628 armorial by Blas de Salazar) even though I believe that Sancho's original grant permitted the use also by heirs/descendants, en perpetuo, but, like you said, it appears very few of the Estradas ... and none of the Duques de Estrada lineage ... used anything but the single-headed eagle).

PPS - I also attach another image (I can't remember which armorial I snipped this from, but I think in the late 1500s, showing that at least some of the Estrada lineage were still using the aguila bicefala device in their escudos).

PPPS - the two-headed imperial eagle device was reserved (by convention relating to imperial perogatives, and expressly by Spanish law after about 1478) only to [legitimate] use by those who had been granted express written permission from the HRE ... so, it seems likely [that IF this device was being used legally in 1524-1540s on an artifact in New Spain, there must have been a granting document issued by the imperial court ... or a later prueba  of a descendant that refers back to it] ... whether that document was preserved and can be located, today, is an open question??

Thank you,

Robertito

Dear Roberto,

I studied some years ago the autobiography of Diego Duque de Estrada (ss. XVI-XVII). In a long excursus he mentions the nobility of his house, and has a coincident information with yours:

"Origen de los Duques de Estrada de los emperadores romanos, de quien después descendieron los Águilas, llamados así por la insignia del águila, que por los antecesores de los Duques de Estada traían en sus pendones [...]

En el altar mayor de San Bartolomé, iglesia principal en la ciudad de Ávila del Rey, y de quien fue fundador  y reedificador el adalid Sancho de Estrada, como se dirá en su lugar, de quien estos señores son fundadores y patrones, sobre nuestras armas está este letrero:

               El gótico de Alemaña

            primo del Emperador,

            que trajo el águila a España,

            en campo de oro se baña

            siendo negro su color.

de que se viene a certificar que somos los primeros que en armas hayan puesto por blasón el águila, como desdencientes de emperadores romanos en nuestra España".

Según el editor, Diego Duque de Estrada copia casi toda su genealogía de Luis de Ariz, Grandezas de la ciudad de Ávila, de 1607, algo anterior al Blas de Salazar que se menciona en la primera imagen que incluyes en tu entrada anterior; pero todos deben copiar en última instancia a Gracia Dei, del s. XV.

D. Duque de Estrada dicen que los de apellido "Águila" tenían el mismo escudo por proceder del mismo linaje y que un Sancho del Águila estuvo "proveído por Virrey de la Nueva España".

El apellido 'Águila', por tanto, podría ser una nueva pista.

Cordialmente,

Antonio Cid

Estimado, Antonio,

Gracias por la pista sobre el apellido de Sancho de Águila "proviedo por virrey de la Nueva España" ; voy a investigar el apellido Aguilar muy intensamente!

Mil gracias,

Bob

Bob,

I was not particularly talking about only the Spanish concerning the two-headed imperial eagle. Remember, it does not have to be of Spanish origin to be on a Spanish period site in Texas. There were plenty of Germans, French, and even Irish serving Spain and by extension Mexico during that period. Look at Gov. O'Reilly, born in Ireland.

Bob,

I assume that you have check the Spanish papers for who was at the nearest town, fort, or mission to the site and then checked their heraldry.

are you certain it is a real coat of arms? you mention that it is inscribed on the artefact, you do not specify the nature of the artefact but have you considered the possibility that it is an example of what we now know as trench art where soldiers inscribe objects with graffiti that implies they have a higher rank/status than they really do

One problem is that there literally were tens of thousands of coats of arms in Europe at any one given period. The amount represented in the historical record pales in comparison to the actual. Its like we say about ceramic maker's marks: for every one we have a record of, there are at least ten we do not.

 @ Tim

The artifact is cast of white-metal [silver ?]; the coat-of-arms was cast-in-the-mold and is the central element of a traditionally designed personal Spanish escudo of the quadrilaterally-divided pointed-shield type common in Siglos XVI-XVII.  It is not grafitti (although I acknowledge my crude drawing may make it appear poorly executed, the mold design was clearly carved by an experienced and skilled craftsman, and the casting executed by an expert foundryman).

@ James

You are absolutely correct about the daunting statistics of preserved armorial/heraldic records; however, I believe there is a "saving grace" in this case. The use of the imperial emblem suggests either someone in great favor of the emperor (if being used legitimately) OR someone who was not afraid of being detected using it inappropriately ... the item had been a household furnishing, not an item of personal adornment or weapon, nor one that would ever be seen in public in its original context ... it was recovered from professional archaeological excavation of a Native American grave ... whose occupant had most likely acquired it through trade with coastal beach-combing Indians [Karankawas] who found it washed-up-on-the-beach from a shipwreck [I am not posting a photo or a more precise description for the artifact because I have been asked not to do so by its "owner"], but would likely have only been viewed by close friends in the home or office of its owner [its authenticity and provenance of its recovery are unquestioned, and not relevant to identifying the coat-of-arms ... except to say it likely dates after about 1542 and before about 1650 ... which is based mainly on certain assumptions I make about style, both of the artifact, but also of the coat-of-arms, and not on any physical dating of the item or its context  ... so far].

In either case we are not talking about some powerless no-name nobody, not a footsoldier or even a low-ranking military officer, but likely someone of the nobility, someone of wealth, and high-rank and political connections, e.g., a relative or close friend of the emperor, or perhaps a (non-noble but wannabe noble) official of the imperial administration (perhaps one flaunting his imperial position / authority or even wishing to pretend kinship with the emperor ... as was said about the imperial factor Gonzalo de Salazar).

The use of the imperial double-headed eagle may be presumptuous / boastful / equivocal / fraudulent / even illegal ... but that doesn't alter the fact that the thirteen stars [especially arranged as they are] are unequivocally related to the Salazar surname. That helps to significantly narrow-down the field of people to consider and greatly enhances the chances there are records preserved that will enable the coat-of-arms to ultimately be identified.

The two-headed eagle reminds me very much of a crude version of the Byzantine two-headed counter part. There were at least three imperial families that used this motif, apart from being a symbol of the empire. The house of Palaiologos comes to mind.

Could be interesting  to investigate whether there is some connection there. A member of the Byzantine family could have fled westwards after/before the fall of Constantinople and settled in Spain.

Just a thought.....

@ Peter

Thank you for your comments. I agree, the style of the two-headed-eagle motif appears to be derived originally from the Byzantine (but appears most likely to have stronger connection with the style as coming through northern Germany ... there are many armorials circa 1450-1500 that show very-similar execution in the arms of northern German princes and cities), but my artifact is dated quite late (definitely post 1492 and likely after 1542 at the earliest date of manufacture) to consider (older) Byzantine connections ... hmmm ...although, I seem to remember reading about a johnny-come-lately Byzantine prince who appeared in the royal court in Spain (ca 1500 ??) with pretensions of succession to the Byzantine throne ... strong enough pretensions that King Ferdinand (?) purchased his rights of succession at a sizable price ??? Do you happen to know the name of this prince or more about this story ... or his family arms?

Bob,

I see that researchers believe the double-headed eagle originally was associated with the early post-Roman Byzantine Empire. However, if that is the case then it is bizarre that it is more often referred to as an imperial eagle or imperial Roman eagle. It was also the symbol of some of the popes.

James of the many mysteries around the Imperial Eagle an association with the Byzantines while retaining the name Imperial or Roman is the easiest to understand.  The Byzantines always regarded themselves as the true heirs of the Caesars and frequently referred to themselves as Roman.  The emperors also frequently tried to present themselves as the true patrons/protectors of the Papacy, until the 8th century the Pope also accepted this.  The split then being either the result of an ambitious Pope taking advantage of Byzantine weakness or the same weakness requiring him to do so, and acknowledging a separate western regime as the Holy Roman Empire.  Given these ideas it is quite credible for something associated with the Byzantines from the 10th century on to be regarded as a Roman Eagle.  Although another possibility is that it is isn't Roman its Rum as in the Seljuk Sultanate who adopted the name, and also the motif of the double eagle, claiming to be the true heirs of Rome.  I think the earliest attested 'Imperial' usage is Otto IV in the late 12th century, so whether the Byzantines and the Sultan of Rum got their ideas from him ultimately I don't know.  In any case there are plenty of mechanisms for an Eastern symbol to be called Imperial and Roman.

I meant it more to the fact that those not steeped in history believe it to be a symbol of old Rome. However, I am aware that the double-headed eagle is also called the Eastern Roman Eagle, thus giving due to its Byzantine nature.

JAG

looking at some of the medieval adopters of this symbol I would speculate that it is not just modern people who think this, I did read somewhere, long ago so I don't remember either the source or how credible it was, that this may have been based on the 'eagle' headed swords carried on the figure of Diocletian and his 'co-rulers', the idea being that a unified emperor would symbolically hold the Western and the Eastern Emperor's swords, but as I said I cannot remember where and I recall being dubious because if that were true I would have expected Constantine the Great to have promoted the imagery

Guys,

The double-headed-eagle motif is quite ancient and was used in many ancient cultures ... Greek, Assyrian, Roman (some supposedly credible sources say it was one of the arms used by Julius Caesar, at least whilst in Britain), and Byzantine (perhaps more) ... I'm not too worried about from which ancient culture MY two-headed-eagle originally derived ... according to the best sources, it had arrived in Spain at least a hundred years before my artifact came into existence (most likely through Gaul via a cousin of the HRE). Consequently (although the style/execution of the motif seems rather "crude" it most closely matches the art of those being used in northern Germany from late-1300s-to-mid-1500s); so, it had already long become SPANISH (before being exported to Mexico where it was most likely cast onto our Texan artifact ... after about 1542).

So we are (most likely only) interested in Spaniards of the 16th-century who were both related to the Salazars AND with the aguila bicefala in their escudo (either representing a Spanish family arms, or to indicate relatedness/authority of the imperium/HRE) AND a resident of the New World (New Spain, Mexico ???).

Bob,

Appropriately chastised, I think.

Dear James,

Please do not feel "chastised" ... your helpful comments have been most appreciated ... I was just trying to re-focus the spotlight to the portion of the stage where the actors are located.

Regards,

Bob

PS - did you boycott the inauguration (like John Lewis and me)?

Bob,

My point was that there were a lot of people from various countries involved in New Spain. For that reason I could not say 100% that the heraldic shield was Spanish.

JAG

I watched from afar. There were several things that worried me about his speech, but the main one was "a total allegiance to the United States of America" , which sounds so fascist?

Compound that with an earlier CBS interview when he was asked if he understood that the president of the United States was not a CEO, but that Congress and the Supreme Court had a say in how the country was run, he replied "We'll see."

I will now give him a chance and I will wait and see.

Are you still interested in the problem?

The original sketch of the coat of arms gives a misleading explanation

of the parts. The coat of arms is a typically quartered one therefore

it comes in 2 parts. The double aigle may be a special gift of the king

of Spain who was Imperator of Rome for some time.

Do you know the 80volume Enciclopedia of appellidos of the Carraffa brothers? You should consult this.

If you look in Rietstaps armorial you'll find the Salazar coat of arms

13 stars (treize etoiles) . they are 3-3-3-3-1 This might be thought level

by level.

If you go to my rietstapwiki.com and search for treize etoiles (sorry, french)

then you get a list of possible coats of arms. The descriptions are in french.

Several years ago I found a reference that the double headed eagle was used as a family crest by the Spanish family Rosa or Rosado.