Arben you are absolutely right.

The EU does not want breakaways but people have the right to self determination.

These leaders supported separatism in the East but now say No.

Even if I am not a nationalist it is terrible to see such a denial of democracy and resort to brutal repression. For what? It will only happen anyway, just with more conflict rather than an amicable separation. No?

Best wishes, Ronaldo

Dear Ronaldo:

I would say there should at least be some internediate attempts that would involve dialogue, including also some form of international and, in this case, primarily EU involvement. The EU has been involved in setting the rules outside of its borders (e.g., in the Montengrin referendum that led to Montengro's independence from then State Union of Serbia and Montenegro). The EU has been decisive in setting the 55 % requirement for the outcome to be valid. And it slightly passed this threshold (on the other hand, I think this was 'No' percentage in the Scottish referendum).

In any event, I am inclined to think that there should be some form of direct dialogue between the Spanish government and Catalan democraticaly-elected leadership. Even in such more distrustful environments such as the Balkans, we have seen at one point or another processes of political dialogue (e.g., the Rambouillet Conference on Kosovo on an interim solution for Kosovo, then again the Vienna talks between Kosovo and Serbian leadership on Kosovo's status, and now again the EU-mediated taks between Kosovo and Serbia). I fail to see how a democracy such as Spain cannot entertain similar political processes.

The Brexit notwithstanding (which nonetheless contains distinct features, albeit with nuances that express some form of reclaiming 'independence'), the rise of referendums in Europe (and beyond - eg Kurdish referedum in Iraq) has ultimtely resulted in their fall, in the sense of inability to materialize the seemingly partial aspiration for the formation of new independent states. The value would rather seem to be limited to some internal rearrangements, if any, which after all should probably be seen as a legitimate course of action in the constant expression of the internal right to self-determination. So, a well-prepared or consensual referendum (agreed by Madrid and Barcelona) in Catalonia could well result in an outcome disfavoring independence (such as in Scotland); however, coercive methods could well complicate the scene.

I do not think violent methods have been effective measures in settling territorial disputes or,

alternatively, they have only worked temporarily. As I can see, there is one clear lesson history has taught us: the hardest thing ever to suppress is freedom!

With kind regards,

Qerim

Dear Querim

Thank you for a very insightful contribution.

A Balkans perspective is here essential.

As you say why can Madrid and Barcelona not simply talk? After all in far more difficult situations that has been possible. You mention Kosovo and Serbia. I can mention Ireland (where I live) and Britain.

The problem is that the Catalan crisis is, at least in part, one the national government's own making. Many Catalans are still furious at the role Rajoy’s conservative People’s party (PP) played in torpedoing the 2006 Catalan statute of autonomy, which would have afforded the region greater independence.

In 2010, the PP successfully urged the constitutional court to annul or reinterpret parts of the statute, ensuring that Catalonia was not recognised as a nation within Spain and that the Catalan language was not given precedence over Castilian in the region.

Thus my reading is that we do not have a 'Catalan problem' but a 'problem of democracy in Spain'. Why the brutal repression of the 1st October referendum if the courts had declared it illegal anyway? Why put in jail without bail the leaders of the two main Catalan associations? Now they threaten the Catalan government (Puidgemont and colleagues) with charges of 'rebellion'?

You mention Scotland. The separatists there have now decided to hold off on another referendum. No one threatened them but their voices were heard. That is democracy.

You are right to say EU involvement as peace maker is essential. They cannot just say this is an internal Spanish matter. It could tear Europe apart.

Any other views out there?

Ronaldo

Thanks Inga for a very interesting perspective.

You say very much to the point that

"While the right to internal self-determination is the right of the Catalonians to govern themselves economically, culturally, socially, politically etc. at the institutional level, the right to external self-determination is a highly controversial right that implies secession, thus, the right to full legal independence which certainly does not go in line with a number of other general principles of international law, namely the principle of territorial integrity, sovereign equality of all states, the principle of uti possidetis juris, equality before the law, universality of human rights etc."

What I am wondering about is whether these perspectives in law are sufficiently nuanced to comprehend the situation in Catalonia. All declarations of independence or separation are necessarily ‘illegal’ at one level. Within the terms established by the state that is inevitable.

But you raise the external element. Is what the movement in Catalonia wants necessarily ‘illegal’ in terms of EU law? One way or another the situation will pose a challenge to Europe. It may even be beneficial in the long term as democracy is always evolving and we cannot say that what we have is the best solution.

See more here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/how-the-catalan-crisis-could-send-shockwaves-across-europe

For myself, as a social movements scholar, what emerges from Catalonia is a complex set of issues around an incomplete transition from Francoism, the economic crisis in the Spanish state and the inability to deal democratically with the wishes of part of the Catalan people for more political and above all, cultural autonomy.

Please tell us more from a legal perspective!

Dear Ronaldo:

On the international legal front--albeit limited to the ICJ's Kosovo advisory opinion and its meaning and implications for other cases--you may wish to also have a look at this ASIL annual meeting debate: Article What the Kosovo Advisory Opinion Means for the Rest of the World

Article What the Kosovo Advisory Opinion Means for the Rest of the World

Dear Querim

That is a most interesting document.

I was most struck by your argument that

"The legal bases for the right to external self-determination of the people of Kosovo are many. To list a few most pertinent ones, Common Article 1 of the 1966 international human rights covenants is clear: ‘‘All peoples have the right of self-determination,’’ and to ‘‘freely determine their political status’’ (emphasis added). The ICJ has acknowledged in the Wall Advisory Opinion the existence of a right to self-determination in situations unrelated to decolonization."

In relation to Catalonia the legal principle from which Pedro Sánchez, the Spanish socialist leader, derives opposition to Catalan independence is his own country’s constitution. But if that constitution took absolute priority, then article 1 (2) of the UN charter ( "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;") would be redundant.

For the European parliament’s President Antonio Tajani, who berated those who voted for autonomy in Lombardy and Veneto this weekend, the principle is simply fear: fear of “the proliferation of small nations”, as Tajani put it – which, again, is not an argument in international law. For the European parliament’s president Antonio Tajani, who berated those who voted for autonomy in Lombardy and Veneto this weekend, the principle is simply fear: fear of “the proliferation of small nations”, as Tajani put it – which, again, is not an argument in international law.

So Inga how do you think this squares with your argument that

"although international law does not explicitly prohibit the right to secession, meaning the unilateral withdrawal from a state of part of its territory and population with the will to create a new state, according to international law, on the one hand, this right is applicable exclusively in the context of decolonization and situations of military occupation"

Thank you for a most illuminating discussion!

Ronaldo

Dear Inga

Thank you for more very clear analysis of the law regarding secession etc.

I will not question what you say as I am not a legal expert at all!

But I have some questions for you. You say:

" Thus, it must be kept in mind that not all groups of individuals constitute "peoples" and the right to self-determination does not constitute an absolute human right. In other words, reasonable limits may be placed on the right to self-determination "

I wonder who has the right to decide who has or has not the right to be a people and have the right to self determination? In relation to Catalonia I heard much talk that they were not really so different or that they were not really 'oppressed'. But surely they must decide?

Related is who is to place these 'reasonable limits of the right to self -determination' and with what legitimacy?

I am quite persuaded though by your argument that Kosovo obtained much EU support and Catalonia has not.

But what I now wonder is whether the judicialization of politics (eg sending a government to jail for sedition) is a good way forward. Should politics not be allowed to prevail so long as other people's rights are not breached?

Best wishes

Ronaldo

Spain follows the footsteps of Russia: if you don't want an opposition just lock them up

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/25/catalan-leader-carles-puigdemont-held-by-german-police

I am not sure where you find your data. In the two Catalan elections with pro-independence coalitions, more voters chose pro-unionist parties. Polls consistently show that the population is pretty much evenly divided in opinion about this issue. The "referendum" that did take place was a political act, not a true barometer of the people of Catalonia. Yet people here continue to only focus on the seccionist group and ignore the other half of the Catalan population.