Great question Samit. The answer, of course, is book-length .....and is a bit weirder than one'd expect.

Yes...another Einstein's likes question....where is the ultimate reference point? Let us go to the basic...time is based on light, vibrations, waves, movement of oscillation bodies. We measure movement, we measured time. Eventually we refer time to light velocity, C. Seem there is nothing move faster than light...but than, we have black hole, to shows that even light can be trapped, or could simply said black hole can move even faster than light, to be able to "catch it". Time is discrete or continuous, can only be answered when we are able to freeze time, manipulate it. I think, it is continuous, as we never cab be able to "turn back time", time is a one way direction. If time is discrete, well, I think we will have so many dimension...that we keep on leaping to different dimensions at any instances, which later we need to be able to identify the type of dimension we are at. Let say....we are at dimension X now, in another 2 minutes time, we are at Dimension Y, later after the fifth minutes we are at dimension Z. What will happened to us...if we are able to leap through other dimension easily? I think, we could be criminal and will never get caught.

i think time is continuous..... its just the units like sec, min or hrs. which are used to measure some fractions of time in a discrete sense. but it is actually continuous, it is always moving on without any break....

Somehow, I don't know why I feel that time is like a complex fluid glued in the midst of physical sort of fields.

Although, yes entropy has lot to say on it.

Thnx all for ur valuable views.

From the point of modern physics, to the best of my knowledge time is continuous.

But philosophers have are divided for many centuries. I believe that time is not separated from matter, it is caused by matter, the same way materials have dimensions, the posses time as well. I also believe that matter is in continuous motion in it self. I talked very briefly, but I refer you to Persian Philosopher Sadra Shirazi hand his philosophy.

Samit,

I recommend Zeh's "The Physical Basis of the Direction of Time". It's pitched at a 'smart' graduate, possibly post-graduate, and opened my eyes to some of the well-studied arguments that abound when it comes to discussing entropy, time, and the various perceived 'arrows of time'.

I suggest that you should not expect answers here from RG to provide as much insight as one might find in a book (or two). I've the 92 version, it's short, but still I dip in from time to time and one day I hope to understand causality in scattering.

Thanks James Garry.

Dear Samit,

There is much about your research and thinking that echoes my own interests. last year I was invited to talk at the IIT in Johdpur(sp?). There are two papers of mine that you may find of interest. The first is 'How Long is a Piece of Time - Phenomenal Time and Quantum Coherence" that I co-authored with Prof. Ram Vimal. The second is related to your interest ins solitons and the brain - "Life, Catalysis and Excitable media - a Dynamic Systems Approach to Metabolism and Cognition" - this appears as a chapter in Springer Verlag's 'The Emerging Phuysics of Consciousness".

As for your question - I believe that time is a much more important and mysterious aspect of the universe than many people believe. I don't pretend to really understand what time is - However, as far as your question is concerned - time is granular - but our experience of time is continuous.

Best

Chris Davia

Just my personal view as I am not an expert in this topic. It is not clear if time is really a basic physical entity or rather only an emergent one. I remember vaguely that there exist some concepts which try to treat it as a kind of illusion (sorry for not giving references). In fact time is used as a parameter in equations of motion, but mathematically it can be eliminated just resulting in correlating states of different physical systems. Now continuity is also doubtful if space, like in case of quantum gravity, looses this property. Some ordering of states is certainly deeply rooted in physical reality which is reflected in the causality principle. I am afraid time will stay a big mystery still a long ..time.

Dear Adam,

My own view is that space/time is an implicit emergent structure and that (at the macroscopic scale) there is no 'stuff' that can meaningfully be claimed to exist called Space or Time. However, if we are to assume that the space and time components of the quantum wave function are also only quantities of mathematical convenience then ( I believe) we run into a problematic chicken and egg situation.

I think that we have to look at the possibility that the probability wave function is not just a mathematical convenience, but may reference quantities that have ontological status (i.e - that the space and time uncertainties are actually referencing quantities that exist as 'substances' or 'stuff'). Having made this claim I do not presume to understand what it may mean, though!

A surprising outcome of this position (given that my assumptions are correct and that my research papers are also pointing in the right direction), is that consciousness itself may be correlated with the spacial and temporal uncertainties of a macroscopic coherent wave function - in other words consciousness = space/time.

Best

Chris Davia

Our brain perceives time , psychophysics proves it and the hardware involved works in physical quantum basis.so time exists ...Is continuos?

I believe not.

The fabric of The universe Is discrete

Say that , i think there Is much room to metaphysics ( i deeply respect it!) to try to different approaches to understand

Time is continuous..... it is just the measuring units of time which makes it appear discrete...

But if space is discontinous, as postulated in quantum gravity for example, then also time cannot be continous.

The property of time is perceived to be continuous whereas the measurement of time is discrete. Time is related to motion (including rest which is equal to zero motion) rather than space. When a motion is observed distinctly with respect to some other motion, the property of time emerges. When the distinction collapses, time collapses as well.

Excellent update and review of "time neuroscience"

Book

Time, internal clocks and movement

Maria A. Pastor, J. Artieda, Catherine E Carr, J. Campbell, Sean Clarke, Brian L Day, Jack Grinband, Richard Ivry, R C Miall, Paolo Nichelli, Jose A. Pastor, Ernst Poppel, Seth Roberts, Naomi Shimizu, Keith T. Sillar, Nicole Von Steinbuchel-Rheinwall, Marc Wittmann, Dan Zakay

[less]

06/1996; Edition: 1, June 24, 1996, Publisher: Elsevier, Editor: Maria A. Pastor, J. Artieda, ISBN: ISBN-10: 0444821147 | ISBN-13: 978-0444821140 |

ABSTRACT Interest in the concept of time has a long history and has been a topic of study for a wide range of investigators. No change can take place without specification of time. While philosophers and physicists have been intrigued by the concept of subjective perception of time and its relationship to real time, natural scientists have been concerned mainly with investigating time as a factor in understanding the behaviour of animals from the migratory habits of birds to the periodical breeding cycles. The immense bulk of temporal perception studies, the variety of approaches, methods of measurement and echen terminology has led to a difficulty in reaching a global interpretation of the results.

This book aims to give an integrative approach of time sense and to focus the analysis on temporal factors in the processing of movement, trying to link temporal perception studies in the final common pathway, that is motion. To give some clues of human brain integrative processes at higher levels. And, finally, to clarify the neurophysiological substrate of these operations.

Time, Internal Clocks and Movement, 1st Edition

Neurophysiological mechanisms of temporal perception (J. Artieda, M.A. Pastor). Processing of temporal information in the brain (C.E. Carr, S. Amagai). Large-scale integration of cortical information processing (S.L. Bressler). Models of neural timing (C. Miall). Neuronal mechanisms of biological rhythms (H. Arechiga). Human vs. animal time (J. Campbell). Time and psycho-physical integration (R. Alvira). The role of attention in time estimation processes (D. Zakay, R.A. Block). Reconstruction of subjective time on the basis of a hierarchically organized processing system (E. Pöppel). Time perception measurements in neuropsychology (P. Nichelli). The development of central pattern generators for vertebrate locomotion (K.T. Sillar). An hierarchical model of motor timing (B.L. Day). Involvement of the basal ganglia in timing perceptual and motor tasks (M.A. Pastor, J. Artieda). Exploring the domain of the cerebellar timing system (S. Clarke, R. Ivry, J. Grinband, S. Roberts, N. Shimizu). Timing in perceptual and motor tasks after disturbances of the brain (N. Von Steinbüchel, M. Wittmann, E. Pöppel). Author index.

Adam,

Can you elaborate on the illusive nature of time?

I believe consciousness has big role to play here.

On the Subject of the Direction of Time.

At the risk of becoming a crashing bore, I find that my pen is, once more, troubled into motion by the ghosts of things un-said (Just finished watching ‘Lincoln’ – still in the thrall of beautiful language).

I did not want my contribution to the discussion to end without sharing what the ‘Fractal Catalytic Model ‘ (FCM) might contribute to our understanding of the apparent direction of time..

I would like to emphasize an earlier statement by saying that I believe that ‘time’ is a poorly understood and mysterious aspect of the universe.

Together with Prof. Ram Vimal we analysed phenomenal time from the perspective on non-varying experiences – pure tones. From this we inferred an aspect of the ‘dimension’ of consciousness. The analysis revealed that no approach rooted in classical physics could account for why temporal experiences are associated with a particular rate. However, we argue that progress can be made if it is assumed that consciousness is to be correlated with a macroscopic coherent state – perhaps similar to a BEC. The analysis revealed that, for humans, the uncertainty in time for this (carrier) wave to lie between a 16th and an 18th of a second (the Critical Fusion Frequency (CFF) for humans. I believe that we have presented a very strong argument that implicates the uncertainty in time of the carrier wave function as determining the apparent rate at which time is experienced. However, the argument, as it is presented, makes no claims as to the origin of the supposed ‘direction of time’!

To redress the matter I present the following short analysis:-

The FCM lies within the compass of dynamical systems theory and treats cognitive states as dynamic solutions to the boundary conditions imposed by the body and the senses. The invariant phenomenology of a pure tone is correlated with a non-trivial (i.e. coherent) invariant state in the brain. The invariant state of the coherent wave correlates in a simple way with the invariance experienced by the listener.

A key feature of this approach is the ‘invariance of the solution’ even when the stimulus and the associated brain state is viewed at different temporal rates. Although increasing (or decreasing) the speed at which these states are observed (eg, by using some sort of film), nevertheless the coherent solutions to these boundary conditions remain exactly the same! – i.e. one stimulus gives rise to one possible phenomenal state (not a range of possible states corresponding to different rates of temporal flow).

Although, these coherent states (or soliton solutions) may be claimed to be invariant (i.e as is the case with pure tones) they are nevertheless dynamic (perhaps in a way that we find difficult to intuitively grasp). They are far from equilibrium dynamic states.

Given that this model is correct in all the relevant details then we can come to some very interesting conclusions:-

Let us suppose that we run the film of the stimulus and the associated coherent brain state backwards!

It turns out that an analysis of this film does not suggest that it is in any sense an impossible state to occur! In other words, strange as it may seem, whilst we claim that a brain state is intrinsically dynamic this in itself is not sufficient to claim that there is any associated directionality!!??

Can we really accept this idea? I believe that we can. Let us suppose that we alter someone’s brain so that they lose the ability to lay down memories. If we introduce a stimulus like a simple audio frequency then, given that the brain can no longer alter itself, it necessarily follows that there is no way that the listener can tell how long he/she has been listening – A second? A million years? From this it follows that, given this set of constraints, each phenomenal moment is exactly the same as any other! I do not believe that the experience (or concept) of temporal direction can emerge from such a set of conditions.

Even if we introduce the concept of phenomenal change – as in the case of a slowly ascending tone, if we still impose the constraint that the brain can not lay down memories, then, given that the same principle applies as when we reversed the direction of the film earlier in this analysis; that reversing the film still gives a view of a consistent physical scenario, then we must conclude that whatever the reason for our sense of the direction of time, it is not to be found within the conscious moment alone.

Give that the directionality of time represents a problem of asymmetry, we must search for its cause within an obvious asymmetry associated with brain function. Is there an obvious candidate? Yes, there is! If we listen to an extended note, say, C Sharp, played right at the end of Rachmaninov’s famous prelude, then, what we hear is somewhat qualified by the harmonies of the composers music. It does not matter at all that Beethoven’s Fifth is soon to be played. The point is that that brain contains information about events on one side of the ‘time-line’, but not the other!

From this I believe that it follows that although dynamic ‘phenomenal change’ may be intrinsic to the conscious moment and explainable within the physical dynamic correlated with this moment, this is not also true of our sense of ‘temporal directionality’. I believe that what follows from the above observations and analysis is that temporal directionality is a derived concept that was initially implicit in the asymmetry of information in the brain relating to events on the time-line ‘post and prior’ to experience.

So, to conclude;

Phenomenal Change (and indeed ‘rate’) is a-priory / intuitive and intrinsic to the special/temporal wave function associated with the conscious moment. It is fundamental to the ontology of consciousness and associated directly with the uncertainty in time of the coherent wave function.

Directionality is a synthetic concept that emerges consequent upon the informational content of the brain extrinsic to the conscious moment but which may nevertheless qualify or ‘prime’ particular conscious states.

Temporal Change (rate) = Phenomenology

Temporal Directionality = Psychology.

Vimal, R and Davia, C.J . How Long is a Piece of Time - Phenomenal Time and Quantum Coherence - Toward a Solution (2008) . Quantum Biosystems. Editor in Chief – Pregnolato, Massimo

Christopher Davia,

It's pleasure to go through your post, especially I am thankful for discussing

correlation of time and consciousness.

I will go through your reference : "How Long is a Piece of Time - Phenomenal Time and Quantum Coherence - Toward a Solution (2008"

Regards.

Dear Samit,

Thank you for your kind words.

For a shorter (and simpler) version of the argument presented by Prof. Vimal and myself, please visit - http://chris-davia.110mb.com/Time-The-Brain-and-QM.html

Best

Chris

Perhaps followers of this question would be interested in contributing to the Research Topic I am hosting at Frontiers-- here is the link

http://www.frontiersin.org/Perception_Science/researchtopics/The_long_and_short_of_mental_t/2182#

Chris Davia,

the link you indicate above seems to be broken ? Thanks

Hi Chris

Yea - that site never seems to be up these days. The file is attached.

The paper that I wrote with Prof. Ram Vimal is:-

Vimal, R and Davia, C.J. How Long is a Piece of Time – Phenomenal Time and Quantum Coherence – Toward a Solution (2008). Quantum Biosystems. Editor in Chief – Pregnolato, Massimo

Chris

Thanks - much appreciated

The time 2 important properties:

1. There is some change associated with time. For that purpose time is a local concept and not a global concept.

2. Continuity of time and the direction allows us to make memories of past in a continuous fashion while moving forward.

Space-time can also be thought as arising out energy-momentum-mass.

Time and space are connected. If they are posited to be discrete, that poses the question: what, if anything, is interlaced between these quanta? Perhaps this brings to play matter and antimatter. The interlace could be mirror (parallel) universes. Matter and antimatter exchanging roles. But in what fashion? Perhaps what might be called a probabilistic fashion- to use the word lightly. By induction the, one might speculate that time is not merely discrete and linear, but multidimensional; in which case direction becomes a matter of choice or definition. Were you a photon traveling at the speed of light, you would not experience space or time. All that would exist is... you :)