Dear Helena

If a student fail for one tenth, the teacher is a machine of calculation, but not is a human being.

Or is a tiny being, selfish and envious, that only feels good for doing evil to others.

Thanks

Unjustified social dominance involved?

Dear Helena

If a student fail for one tenth, the teacher is a machine of calculation, but not is a human being.

Or is a tiny being, selfish and envious, that only feels good for doing evil to others.

Thanks

According to me it is barbaric!!!. What is the guarantee that a particular teacher's evaluation of grade point 9.4 or 9.5 holy?  It is only in academics, it just takes a minute to call a student a failure!!! , In court of law it takes years to call a person useless or fail.

As teachers we need to be little compassionate, when it comes to marginal marks to decide a student to be failure. We in this part of the globe would say  " Aacharyam Aagachhathi Shisya Doshaaha!!" (In Sanskrit) It means, the mistakes/omissions of the students are to be born by teachers only!! Therefore, it is not the failure of the student, it is indeed failure of the Teacher himself!!

In secondary the final grades are A1 A 2 A3 and so forth down to grade D which is just a passing grade 40%. In college anything above 75% is a distinction and from that down you score merit 1 merit 2 and pass.most lecturers will try and do their very best to ensure the student gets the best grade possible. By offering advice to assist them achieve the highest grade possible. In some cases you have personality clash or students select a subject they struggle at and fail to make the passing grade.however they have an option to appeal which allows them to query a mark where the pass margin is that narrow it only required a mark or half mark to make the grade. A lecturers once told us there is no such thing as a bad student it's a reflection of the teachers ability if they cannot ensure all of the class make the grade and recognise those who need additional help

I don't like unreasonable people. Teacher are not excepted.

The level of  learning cannot be measured so precisely that you can differentiate one tenth of  one. After all the pass level is arbitrarily set and meant to be a guidance. If somebody miserably fails to reach it, then it is clear cut decision. But missing it by one or two requires the discretion of  the marker to satisfy himself/herself which side of  acceptable level a student falls. 

For the same reason in some country grading is done on five levels, A,B,C,D, as it is not possible to measure achievement  precisely.  In some universities a panel decides on the fate of such student. I rather the marker to deiced to consider the ability of the student in an interview. 

Dear all, there are many problems here.

First of all, performance must graded according to concrete expectations. Most teachers prepare exams in a very capricious manner and just automatically grade according to a set percentage. Essay questions are even more tricky, as teachers tend to have in their minds what the students must answer and give no credit to students' creativity or to the possibility that the student may prove that the ideas of the teacher are wrong or that there could be more than one answer to an essay question. Essay questions are intended to invite the students to think by themselves, to propose a different approach to what is asked, to exercise creativity, and not just to repeat what the teacher said in class. Multiple-choice questions and the like must also be constructed fairly: many teachers tend to trick the student into making a wrong choice and I think that is immoral.

Many years ago I had the chance to work for the Educational Testing Service (ETS), a private entity that makes and administers important exams like the SAT, the LSAT and other tests for entrance at universities. I had to go through many training seminars on how to make fair and meaningful questions —both essay questions and the more "objective" ones like multiple-choice. I discovered that most teachers have no idea of how to make a meaningful question —of any kind— but just want students to prove that they remember what the teacher said, which means that the teacher is always right. In these questions, memory is more important than learning or mastering a subject, and more important than inspiring the student to think on their own, which are indispensable traits of a student who wishes to go to a university. In those seminars we were drilled hard so that everyone focused on the subject matter of the question and on how to ascertain that the question actually revealed the knowledge and capacity of the student. 

Most teachers do not go through this heavy drilling of how to test a student fairly and gainfully. Thus, the problem is not this or that percentage. True justice to the student is done if the question —whatever question— is well-thought out, justified, well-written and answerable within the time scheduled for the test. In a good testing scenario where the exam is well prepared, the passing percentage must be respected. Students should never be given a freebie if their performance is not up to par. Students one day will be adults: we must teach them to assume responsibility for studying and learning, for doing their job as promised and as required: if they do not get an A it is because they did not work as hard as they should. Mediocrity must not be fed by teachers giving a student what he or she does not deserve. It also sends a bad message to those students who worked harder: "If you do not work as hard, you will get an A anyway". Passing a student who does not meet the standard established frustrates those who worked hard and did well. Tests are not for making students feel good, but to make them feel intelligent, studious, responsible, well prepared. Teachers must be true professionals who do a good job at teaching and testing. The future life of there students dependes on that, not on false consolations. Ill-placed generosity is not generosity at all.

Best regards, Lilliana

Dear Helena ,

Since you have mentioned 0.1 , I would say FAIL !!! 

I am sorry , I come from a background where we did not get free grades and we had tough competition.  So no mercy there , fierce competition in  academics is healthy. 

Younger you are, the need for focused and disciplined  learning targeted towards 100% (or close) is important else what is the purpose of education if it does not make some one COMPETITIVE . 

PS: I would be relaxed towards my  Grad students , not under-grads !!!!!!!

Outcome: I am still in touch with my under-grads over 15 years ...

Dear all, 

Thank you very much for your wise comments.

With EFA (exploratory  factorial analysis), we aplly rotation methods in order "to make clear where the value should belong"ie if the student should fail or not.

If science shows that, then 9,4 as a final value, should never occur, avoiding confusion,  bad environment and therefore it comes from someone who is damaging the good atmosphere that should exist in any place..

We all want is hapiness and we all should help that to occur, don't you think so?

Have a nice time

Helena.

Simply a ridiculous practice, what else?

They don't want just to reject somebody, they want to enjoy it!

There are other ways for rejection, not such a sadistic one...

That is not considered fair and just.  The evaluation of students is generally not that precise to warrant failing a student for 0.1 of mark. I wonder it would be possible to have a fuzzy grading system:).

I have not observed these cases. To help the students, I generally give a higher marks to failed students. In one case, the original mark was 7.5 and I gave him 9.75 (the passing grade is 10). I heard later that student complained that I had failed him for a tiny 0.25!  I have heard of similar stories.

Dear Helena,

I think it is an unfair practice. The assessment of any course usually involves a small percentage (5 to 10%) where the instructor can "subjectively" put a grade to either help the student (who needs 1 or 2% more) pass in case the instructor thinks that this student did enough efforts and learned the course objectives, thus deserving to pass. Otherwise, in my opinion, there should be at least 3% to 5% margin between the passing and the failing grades.

I do think that education should not be deprived from the human factor. Numbers alone (especially exam grades) are not enough to evaluate the performance of the students. The humanitarian factor should be present.

I am sorry Helena , I do understand the term "Happiness" . From my student - teaching life experience I still believe the youth is fairly free from complicated issues.

happiness - well I have met some  real unhappy Supervisors in Canada , trust me they will make anybody's life miserable and I believe such people have  psychological issue when they gloat by creating misery for others. Again I would see it has incompetence in visualize big picture in RESEARCH ...

Highly illogical, analogus to cutting leg to shoe size.

Dear all, 

Thank you very much for your answers.

Buddhist philosophy says that people should always act for the good of all and we must help them find this path if proceed evil. Deep down we all want to be happy, but sometimes we act wrongly. We must correct these wrong behaviors because we are helping others to have less penalties in the future.

Have a nice time

Helena

Dear Helena, I do not quite get what you mean by "happiness" here. Grading could be as objective as possible and it will not always be a happy moment for the student who gets a bad grade for having made less than average work. I do not envision "happiness" as a goal in learning as no teacher can be asked to make a group of different students "happy". That will never be a requirement for a teacher because teachers cannot foretell what will make a person happy. Education is not in the advertisement industry, where products are meant to please a costumer. Education transmits responsibility, complex knowledge, discipline and constant exposure to evaluation. Education must be a challenge and those who are not up to the challenge will not be quite happy in the end. A state of critical happiness is never good because it misses the point of education.

No, we do not come to school to be "happy", "tepid", standing on a grey middleground where nothing happens good or bad. A student can be expected to be satisfied for his or her achievements, but "happiness" is not a part of this. Happiness is too subjective and unpredictable for education to be aimed at it. A teacher cannot make a plan to make every student happy. 

Best regards, Lilliana

Dear George, I have lived in the United States. Not even back in the 50s families were "happy". That is why movies were so important: they would give everyone a positive image of their own gray and threadbare lives. That is why the Viet Nam war was so shocking. And that is why Martha Rosler decided that the only way the US could deal with the horrors of war (remember Apocalypse Now's final mantra "the horror, the horror, the horror"?) was to put the war in everyone's window... Not even Trump is happy!

Or maybe you are joking!?!?!

Best regards, Lilliana

Re. The level of learning cannot be measured so precisely that you can differentiate one tenth of one.

In the case of 9.4 versus 9.5, then I think the teacher should re-evaluate the student's work to see if it merits a higher score or not. However, there has got to be a cut-off to grades. If we say 9.4 is close enough then why not 9.3? 9.2? 9.1?

In chemistry where fractions of a percent often make the difference between a stable compound and an explosive compound, is it proper to say that the formula calls for a 95 percent solution of X chemical, but 94 percent will do?

James dear, you are absolutely correct, but this has evolved into the search for student happiness in the classroom. That worries me a lot.

Best regards, Lilliana

Re. The level of learning cannot be measured so precisely that you can differentiate one tenth of one.

Dear James,

You have got a good point. Yes, the teacher should re-evaluate the student's work to see if it merits a higher score or not. However, the grading system has a margin of error as well. In this case, I would go with benefit of doubt.

Questions that comes to my mind: What is the margin of errors and confidence interval of the grades?  How to consider with uncertainties and subjectivity In the case of 9.4 versus 9.5?.  My answer: just pass the student:)

Lilliana & George,

Back in the 1960s where I grew up we were 25 miles south of a major Army training base, 60 miles SW of one Air Force base, 30 miles NNE of another Air Force base, 30 miles NE of a major oil and gas refining cluster, 65 miles NW of another major oil and gas production area, and 70 miles NW of the oil and gas hub of the South (Nothing like realizing that you are totally screwed!). I remember that it was constantly in the back of our minds whether we were within the fringe of any Soviet or Chinese nuclear strike blast zone, considering the high-value targets surrounding us. With nothing to our west, we also considered the direction of radioactive fallout that potentially could affect our area. Author Pat Frank did justice to this era by bringing these fears alive in his renown novel "Alas, Babylon", which gave my younger self nightmares.

These were realities not often spoken, but always present. Just like subtle reminders every week on where the closest "shelters" were located. The nuclear threat paranoia of the 1960s really had been compounded by McCarthy's "Red Comrade" witch hunts of the early 1950s that often made people wonder just how well they knew those neighbors that moved in down the road/block. Vietnam was one of the many "fronts" on this war against the perceived Communist threat to the American Dream. That American Dream aspired towards during the post-World War II years, that optimism that evil had been defeated and civilization would survive, that "getting on" with our lives in the peace brought about by world war, was shattered by a new specter made all too hysterically real by McCarthy's paranoia.

Helena,

Sorry for side-tracking :~(

I understand, dear James, but it needed optimism coming from lame TV series that were impossible to believe. That is why all that has been almost eliminated from memory, the "atomic fifties". The bomb trials all over. The bomb attack drills. All that had to be erased from memory because it barely worked to make people feel better. The idea in the 50s was to face fear, to be "ready", to die honorably, all that supported by these incredible TV shows. But at all times it was evident that the American Dream was a dream actually addressed at the 60s, and it fueled the Vietnam War, further sacrifice and further heroism ten years after Korea. That is the reason for the whole scandal surrounding Maya Lin's Vietnam Memorial which is actually a long, exhaustive tombstone with all the names of the dead. A group of veterans finally managed to put another memorial very close to Lin's much visited site. The new monument was a symbolic group of three nameless soldiers, typical of 19th-century sculpture, that denied the diversity and sheer amount of the Vietnam's dead. Lin thought it was important to name all the names so that all the families could feel like one family and get to know each other right there at the monument while reading the names of those who were not immediate family. 

One monument accepts the enormous loss of young lives; the other shows the heroic few. They contradict each other and represent the contradictory memory of the wars fought by the US. I just observe, and I have no clear opinion of this. But neither the 50s nor the 60s were happy times. Just on TV.

My father fought in Korea. I still have his war photos.

Lilliana

It depends on the number of the students having that grade, number of students in a class and the courses being taught. Having too rigid numerical system doesn't fetch much in this regard. Personally, I don't believe in forced distribution system. The absolute method of evaluation is best in many situation. Learning is key for measuring the success on any course or program. In my university to get 60 percent was too difficult for Master Program in Economics in my time, and students passing with 50+ were praised for their achievement.

But its also true that somewhere you have to draw a cut off line. In that situation, the teacher must use his judgement and wisdom. Evaluation is done in two ways: one approach is judgement approach (judging for the Holistic performance), and the second one is mechanical approach where you put marks for each coursework and arrive at the cumulative grade. Thus combining both approach is better if you counter such situation. USE YOUR JUDGEMENT. If he or she deserves pass him or her otherwise let him or her flunk.

Dear all,

I hope everytbody is well.

I do apprecciate your wise comments and kindness for answering this question.

All the very best

Helena. 

Well George , In my case (as a student ) , I am qualified Engineer accredited by PEO while those men are not . Education vs Experience , how I see grades is, if a student has the perseverance to get good grades he /she has greater strength /endurance .

The teacher may think that his student needed 0.1 and the student may think that his teacher may be 100% incorrect.

Usually there is a requirement that certain percentage of students will get A+ and  will get A; at least in the university that I am attending and the university where I teach back at home. This 0.1 point difference may reflect, more probably academic performance, and less probably university requirement. 

That shows the sadist tendency of the teacher, can't help!

"Someone who wants to kill a cat can find a thousand ways, not just nine to kill that cat." He will always find ways to circumvent the system.

But in grading, the system or grading policy announced at the start of the school year will be the basis. Score and grade classes with intervals will be useful. If the 9.5 falls in one class, and the 9.4 falls in another, the teacher, giving the students in the 9.5 class a higher grade  than the student in the 9.4 class  is just implementing the policy.

In Greece the excellent is 10, thus a student passes the course with 5.

So a not ugly way to reject a student is to rate him/her with maximum 3.9, which is truncated to 4.

Any number above 4 is critical, students complaint why this, why that.

If we follow that argument, we also ask, what do you think about 10 and 9.9, what do you say?

I think we always need a balance, a point to start, a law 

And Would it be different at the limit of 9.0 for example?

Students certainly know the requirements, and certainly they are the same for everyone.

C.,

Worked with a girl who was getting a degree in Political Science as a stepping stone into the diplomatic corps so that she could see the world for free! What a motive!

Dear Helena,

I think that not only the sum of scores matter but also to recognise whether the student understands or not the necessary knowledge. It has occurred that somebody got the scores necessary to pass but s/he was not able to answer about 50% of the questions. Or some part of the answers were right but the teacher could diagnose that the student had no idea on elementary knowledge of the subject. Sometimes it is advisable to offer a pass if the student showed progression relative to his/her former results. The teacher is not a scoring machine, one should afford an impetus allowing the student to get a real sense of achievement and hope.  Of course, basic condition is the honesty and diligence of the student.

Dear Marcel,

What kind of social dominance?

I do not agree, András. There should be no "personal scoring". Each course is designed to transmit and discuss a specific material. The teacher has decided what is the progress, not according to the student's abilities or preparedness, but according to what a student must know and understand. A student that falls behind must be given more time, perhaps, but he or she must rise to the occasion. Even students with special needs are required to know what is needed in the course. If the student does not know what he needs in order to pass, he or she should study more, not be given a consolation price he or she has not earned. I teach in an architecture school. To be professionals, students must meet a specific amount of knowledge and must be prepared to perform as per professional standards. A student's grades must reflect his or her  capabilities according to professional standards. In order to obtain their professional license, future architects must really know what they have in their hands. The best that can happen to a student is to have discipline and rigor from te start. Learning is a serious matter. It is not a feel-good therapy.

Probably the cause for today's extended mediocrity has to do with the leniency of teachers and parents. When these kids grow up, they will be thrown out from their jobs because they will not perform as well as others. And then it will probably be too late to restart their education.

Best regards

Dear Napoleon, too many teachers are letting students do whatever. That is irresponsible. Besides, "mercy" does not have to do with teaching: teaching is not a punishment that deserves mercy for the "punished": the student. Teachers are not executioners cutting off the heads of students. Capricious, emotional leniency is not formal or professional on the part of the teacher. These things accumulate and the student will think that he or she deserves to get away with a sloppy preparation for an exam. This is incredible. We are sending lazy, incompetent students to the world. They can do a lot of damage and will expect to get away with it because they got away with it at school. Teach kids to be honest and proper, disciplined and proud of their effort, not lazy kids that shame their teachers if they are disciplined.

Best regards, Lilliana

Dear Helena,

Some teachers calculate grades from 100 then they divide the points. 

In this method, we have problems like this.

Best regards,

As a professor, I always checked how little a student failed to secure, not how much a student was able to secure. Evaluation is not a mechanical job, and  a teacher cannot impart to the students the entire knowledge on a subject. Often, a student  is found to insert material that the teacher does not know. 9.4 and 9.5 practically make no difference; a teacher who downgrades a student  by 0.1 point  is neither a good teacher nor an efficient examiner. 

Dear Helena, every day I see more and more excuses for not teaching properly and grading properly. As teachers become more lenient, teaching quality drops, and students take advantage of this drop, so they perform less. The most responsible person here is the teacher. As I explained before in several comments under this questions, students need to be challenged in order to study: it is a normal case of inertia: the more you expect, the more they perform, and the less you expect, the less they perform. It is evident. Teachers do not have to be bad people in order to grade properly. That is a myth brought about by what Robert Hughes, in his epochal book titled The Culture of Complaint, called "the cry-baby generation", lazy people who demand less to do less and who "cry" when found at fault. This cry-baby generation is what we have now in our classrooms. Teachers must work more so that students will follow suit. Teachers are the models to be followed by the student. When the teacher slows down, so will they. This is not hard to understand. In the classroom, unnecessary leniency is not professional. And if the students have learning disabilities, the fair thing to do is to take the student to the proper disability program.  Giving in to unprepared or lazy students is a disservice to society. The nicer you are, the less you teach. Being strict is not being a bad person, just a proper teacher who wants the students to follow suit. It is not humane to withhold knowledge from a student, on the contrary. Meet with the student during office hours to find out if the student is lazy or irresponsible, or frankly disabled. If there is no disability, the student must accept the grade he or she worked for. Of course, I am parting from the premise that most of us are good teachers who take this very seriously and stay abreast of our discipline and of teaching methods...

Best regards, Lilliana

Dear Researchers, 

 Grade is a consencus between what student think they have understand, and what the teachers had taught them, so for me, the teacher who focus solely on grade is like the Scientist who sees only the means to describe a phenomenon and he or she forget to analyse the variability which give the full picture.

Best regards Louadj Yacine.

Such a teacher could be a meticulous and principled teacher -- if the marking scheme and the passing minimum were clearly stated in advance.

Dear all, Thank you very much for your wosed commnets. I wish a good easter for all

Helena