I am reading about Neanderthals, and also happened to go over the migration of Native Americans to the American continent. The ice age that lowered the sea level by 400 feet and allowed that migration. Was there any similar land bridge events before that?
If so, and the Neanderthals were active well before "modern humans", would they have migrated to the America's before? Say 40,000 years ago or 80,000 or 120,000, or 200,000+?
It is hard to search because all anyone on the web wants to talk about is the last ice age. "Our" ice age.
I am not being facetious. This question seemed interesting enough to share. I could just add it to my personal list of thousands of such questions. But ResearchGate is maturing and growing every day. It ought to be a collaborative site.
Could Neanderthals could have crossed during the last 250,000 years?
I found this page at https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth107/node/1506 where its says "last 20,000 years" but, thankfully, the chart of sea level goes back 140,000 years. At least it was narrower. Would it have frozen over? Could it have ice intermittently (ice islands, ice sheets, frozen areas)?
This is not something I know about that well. But it seems to me there have been many periods where humans (our humans) paddled and made their way across waters. And where ice might make a difference. Or maybe Neanderthals, so well adapted for cold, just loved to paddle long distance through the ice. The Bering Strait varies in depth from 100 to 165 feet (today). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Strait
So where might such adventurers have wanted to live in their new continent? Probably caves? Probably Alaska? I don't know. I am not ever sure how to go about it. So I am asking this large and thoughtful group, if anyone has some ideas?
I just ordered all the Jean Auel books again. I have not read them in a long time. Her Neanderthals were a bit hidebound and brutish. (Pardon me, Jean). But Bruniquel Cave is about 176,500 years ago. And they had fire, organization, tents, strength and purpose. If they were smart enough to build a shelter inside a cave, it seems they knew how to stay warm and comfortable.
Early Neanderthal constructions deep in Bruniquel Cave in southwestern France
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature18291
I don't know. I think it could be important. I think it could be fun.
Richard Collins, The Internet Foundation
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I searched "Neanderthals in North America" and came up with this page, but it requires registration or pay.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2129042-first-americans-may-have-been-neanderthals-130000-years-ago/
Humans Lived in North America 130,000 Years Ago, Study Claims at https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/science/prehistoric-humans-north-america-california-nature-study.html
Five Breakthrough Signs of Early Peoples in the Americas at https://www.sapiens.org/column/field-trips/earliest-people-north-america/
This is so confusing. But 130,000 years ago in California sounds about right. That is 46,500 years after Bruniquel. I once walked 2700 miles when I got my first Fitbit. Over a long time, but steady, 10-20 miles a day. If people could go, so would other species (reindeer, elk, moose, bear, sloths, mammoths, birds, etc etc etc. Plants?).
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Ice Age Footprints | Full Episode | NOVA | PBS (23,000 Humans) at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS7ChlsZsGI
Evidence of humans in North America during the Last Glacial Maximum at Article Evidence of humans in North America during the Last Glacial Maximum
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Ancient human genome sequence of an extinct Palaeo-Eskimo at https://www.nature.com/articles/nature08835 5500 years ago to "New World"
Neanderthal Life No Tougher than That of "Modern" Inuits at https://www.newswise.com/articles/neanderthal-life-no-tougher-than-that-of-modern-inuits
The Neanderthal: A new look at an old face at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047248486800422
Inuit people have the same 'caveman genes' that helped an extinct type of human survive the last Ice Age at https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4052228
("Inuit" OR "eskimo") ("neanderthal") has 2.07 Million entry points (3 Jun 2022 Google)
Denisovan DNA at https://www.archaeology.org/issues/60-1301/trenches/311-hominin-neanderthals-humans-siberia "Native Americans and people from East Asia have more Neanderthal DNA, on average, than Europeans"
Upward Sun River "Sunrise Girl-Child" at https://www.seeker.com/history/ancient-infant-dna-sheds-light-on-native-american-ancestors
There is a lot going on. But it is scattered over many sites, publishers, groups, individuals, styles and methods.
Indeed, the possibility of very early 'homo' migrations from Siberia into Alaska cannot be ruled out - but did a significant number of Neanderthals actually get across to East Asia? Perhaps the Denisovians were more likely to have done that?
Of course, concrete evidence is lacking. But it does give rise to an interesting speculation - What sort of world would we have if, before the Cro-Magnons got there, Neanderthals had established themselves in America? - and then built up their own civilisations, thereby dominating the 'New World' - such that the Spanish adventurers would have encountered them? (instead of the Aztecs and Incas). What sort of confrontation would it have been? - and would it have continued until today?
We do know that the Neanderthals were at least as intelligent as the Cro-Magnons; (perhaps even more so in some ways, because their brain-size was slightly larger than ours, with an extra 'bulge' at the back).
As you know, there is an unresolved debate about why they died out in Europe. One theory [comparing limb-lengths and structure] suggests that the Cro-Magnons were better at running and throwing, so they could possibly have fared better in a physical confrontation with their Neanderthal rivals.... Another argument cites the fact that the Cro-Magnons had domesticated dogs, to help in hunting (and even in battle?)
David McNaughton,
Nicely reasoned. Thank you.
I came down with covid or a bad flu, so I did not update this discussion. I cannot find where ResearchGate keeps "my discussions" so I created a project and filled in there. You might want to follow that project, or take a lead yourself. It might be a week or two before I recover.
I do think it more likely that Denisovians are the particular tribes involved. But I haven't found anyone using "ancient human species" consistently. I was thinking of ALL people and tribes in the world for the last 200,000 years. With nomadic tribes or tribes following herds, they can cover vast distances.
My picture is that from 176,500 years ago in France to 40,000 years ago when we lose track of Neanderthals, that is 5460 generations of 25 years each. And 6825 generations of 20 years each. Plenty of time for cultures, large communities, and LOTS of time for walking or rowing.
It only takes three or four generations of interbreeding to change a people so they almost indistinguishable. Life does NOT always have to devolve to violence and genocide.
I cannot keep writing. I forgot how painful the flu can get. Not awful, just a distraction. No sudden moves.
Here is the link to that project. I hate the sloppy layout of ResearchGate.
https://www.researchgate.net/project/Were-there-routes-to-the-Americas-that-Neanderthals-could-have-used-Where-would-they-go
Richard