Hi, Jason

I believe it really goes both ways: authors should do their best about keeping language level high and not only care about the scientific information included. It is good practice for non-native speakers to ask for professional help when it comes to final editing. On the other hand, serious journals are expected to check grammatical and language errors, because it adds to their credibility. Reviewers should also point to such issues, not only to strictly scientific ones.

As for figures quality, it mainly depends on lab infrastructure and software updating, so funding and training play a major role.

Hi Christina,

I agree that it goes both ways, but too many papers slip through the cracks. I would really like for non-native and non-fluent speakers to ask for professional help, but that rarely happens. Probably also due to funding issues.

As a frequent reviewer I tend to reject papers if they are not readable. I know that sounds rough, but I really don't think that we can be asked to go through unreadable papers. If the errors are few and minor, then I'm happy to point them out though.

I do feel that if a journal accepts a paper due to its scientific merit then it's their duty to make the paper readable presentable.

I totally agree. Reviewers are not expected to waste valuable time on trying to figure out the real meaning behind bad use of language. So I should say it takes courage to reject and respect to submit a "clean" paper. Funding should not be the issue: fellow researchers and professors working at the same University may give one another a hand, everyone needs a favor and it's really good to know you can count on help, as long as you're ready to return.

As a reviewer and editor/copy-editor, I agree with both points: people who are not great writers (for whatever reason) should get help, and journals/editors that want to maintain a professional reputation should make sure they publish the cleanest copy possible. There will usually be a couple of errors that slip through (and the perfectionist in me has had to learn to live with that), but typically I won't bother reading or citing papers in journals that are not well-edited.

When I review papers, I may comment on general grammar and word choice problems, but I assume the editors will do a final copy-edit before they publish. Editors in my field (TESOL/Applied Linguistics) tend to be more understanding of the issues "non-native" speakers have when writing for publication in English and will often work with them to improve their papers.

I agree with all the above comments it is both the writers' and journals' responsibilites to see to it that published papers look/read professional(ly). There is a third and fourth line of responsibility however Graduate programs ought to be teaching professional (i.e. journal quality) wrtiting, and professors ought to be mentoring their students regarding writing both by demanding solid writing on exams and term papers and on theses and dissertations--even going so far as lowering grades for less than professional quality writing (and modeling such writing in their comments) and making students rewrite their theses and dissertations until they are up to snuff.

I could not agree more, Ronnie. In fact, I am currently working as the Graduate Writing Specialist at my university, and one of the areas I'm focusing on is writing for publication. In this position, I've looked at a LOT of dissertations (in ProQuest), and frankly, I'm appalled at the poor writing I've found (from many institutions' graduates, not just my own). This reflects badly on the institutions granting the degrees, in my opinion.

Julie, I think it's a generational issue. About 30 years ago there was a move in education circles to decrease focus on spelling and grammar in the lower grades in order to encourage writing and enhance creativity. The notion was that these areas could be addressed in higher grades. I don't know if it ever was. I think you may be seeing the effects of that now. I was teaching Psychology at the undergrad level in the early 90's and half of all my exams were essays. Then too, most students didn't write well, and were unaware of the differences between formal (scientific) writing and expository writing). I and many other profs at one famous institution took time from our psych classes to address the issue. Some of my students resented it and resented being graded on exams for writing (I gave them two grades)...their argument was that this was a psych class not a writing class. In the end though at least one student I bumped into later thanked me and said it helped her in all her other classes (I think it upped her grades somewhat).

Yes, Ronnie, you are right again. Serious Graduate programs should (and fortunately most do) include scientific and expository writing courses. And students (some of mine have, anyway) in the end realize how important writing classes are. And, of course, as Julie mentions, the "non-native" issue is a serious aspect that should not be treated superficially. Thanks for the interesting discussion, Jason.