For the statistics: Yes.

But, like Ronald, I wouldn't necessarily assume that fish feel pain the same way we do.

I also totally agree with Steffi. As long as I treat fish as if they WERE capable of feeling pain, it doesn't matter what I believe.

Actually, I'm also with Dom (except that I don't think this is a troll message).

This is not a survey.

Only RG members who have anything to do with fish will see this question. And of those - in my opinion - only people who either think "yes" or "I don't know, but I behave as if they did" will make the effort to answer. This leaves the question where this "topical discussion" is heading. Is it more an "If you believe that fish are capable of feeling pain, what makes you think so (gut feeling, literature, ...) and how does this affect your everyday work with fish?"? ( @ Culum Just a suggestion. Maybe you could elaborate that "Thoughts people?" a bit.)

@Dom

The one sentence in your post that really made me angry (and made me write this post at all, honestly) was "Do not put weird (i.e. old) ideas in young scientists' heads that have RG only as a reference".

Present day scientists do not "own" the absolute truth and learning is not just accumulating facts. I'd rather say "Tell them about those "weird"/outdated/false ideas and how scientists found out they were wrong." That is unless you mix up "young scientists" with "unmotivated (literature research) students who believe anything", which the second part of the sentence suggests...

If this was really meant as a quick survey, I guess I'm the troll. Sorry ;-)

Anna

Yes. Why is this an issue? :-)

Yes!

And in case of doubt, it should also be rather a YES, because the alternative of ignoring it would be really bad....

Depends on the definitions of pain and conscience, but I generally opt for YES to be on the safe side.

 Yes, fishes feel pain. But this does not answer your question how many people believe this - or believe that fishes have no pain. Like Stefanie I hope that many people believe that fishes feel pain, and, like Simon, I think this should be no issue. 

I'm not sure that your question is really "a bit of a survey" (if it really is, it is a very strange way to perform it and I'm wondering what you will do with the results..). 

I would rather classify your question into the "troll" category (and it's really a pity/shame if RG becomes plagued by troll messages...).

Do not put weird (i.e. old) ideas in young scientists' heads that have RG only as a reference: fishes feel pain, period.

A good answer to this question is found in http://animalstudiesrepository.org/animsent/vol1/iss3/28/ but there are many other references on this question.

My apologies if you feel my answer as too rude (or painful ;-)

Regards

Dom

Fishes feel pain, period. Many studies prove this. 

I think it is a good question, just to remind us (....and especially some of us who collect and handle a large number of these animals per year - like myself). 

 it seems Dom thinks we should not have topical discussions on Research Gate. 

Yes Culum.  Fishes feel pain.

For the statistics: Yes.

But, like Ronald, I wouldn't necessarily assume that fish feel pain the same way we do.

I also totally agree with Steffi. As long as I treat fish as if they WERE capable of feeling pain, it doesn't matter what I believe.

Actually, I'm also with Dom (except that I don't think this is a troll message).

This is not a survey.

Only RG members who have anything to do with fish will see this question. And of those - in my opinion - only people who either think "yes" or "I don't know, but I behave as if they did" will make the effort to answer. This leaves the question where this "topical discussion" is heading. Is it more an "If you believe that fish are capable of feeling pain, what makes you think so (gut feeling, literature, ...) and how does this affect your everyday work with fish?"? ( @ Culum Just a suggestion. Maybe you could elaborate that "Thoughts people?" a bit.)

@Dom

The one sentence in your post that really made me angry (and made me write this post at all, honestly) was "Do not put weird (i.e. old) ideas in young scientists' heads that have RG only as a reference".

Present day scientists do not "own" the absolute truth and learning is not just accumulating facts. I'd rather say "Tell them about those "weird"/outdated/false ideas and how scientists found out they were wrong." That is unless you mix up "young scientists" with "unmotivated (literature research) students who believe anything", which the second part of the sentence suggests...

If this was really meant as a quick survey, I guess I'm the troll. Sorry ;-)

Anna

Even protozoans react to noxious (damaging or damage threatening) stimuli by an avoidance response. What they "feel" we do not know but it surely is something negative.

Yes, Thy feel pain and also respond to it.

Thanks for the response Anna,  I was hoping to capture the fish people and have them think about the topic. Most of us will be dealing with large number on animals over the course of our careers and in many countries there is little to no legislation safeguarding fish welfare. Take Australia, for example, in some states fish are excluded from the definition of "animal" in others they are only included if they are held in captivity, while others still treat them as all other vertebrates.

My feeling is this is largely a political problem. I think the vast majority of fish scientists believe fish are capable of pain or at the very least give them the benefit of the doubt (hence this "survey"). If this is the case then this is no longer a scientific issue, but a sociopolitical one.  If that is the case then fish need some serious PR rather than more science. 

While I have interacted with scientists and even reviewed manuscripts that were rather certain that fishes did not feel pain, I think it's more a case of whether they feel and experience pain in the same way as we do. I don't think there's any doubt that they respond to painful stimuli, sometimes with lengthy reactions, and for those reasons alone there should be more ethical care of fishes, especially in Australia. 

It's definitely a case of society's attitude towards fishes, who are generally deemed brainless and not worthy of the attention or care of other vertebrates.

I agree with Vincent and emphasize the point that the fish experience painful stimuli and will avoid areas in some cases indefinitely. If that is not reason enough to believe fish feel/experience pain then it is for the reason of the beholder that they want to deny this. I think you are correct Culum that this is a sociopolitical issue that stems much from our upbringing, fishing with our fathers and needs to be brought forward to take the reality that they do feel pain, they can remember the pain and they want to avoid the pain!

@ Culum

"My feeling is this is largely a political problem."

This is exactly why I asked what the real purpose of this "survey" is. (other than collecting "yes" answers)

The question "What do you think, is this (exploitable) creature capable of feeling pain?" is ALWAYS political but the way of finding an answer shouldn't be (well, in an ideal world...).

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree with you when you assume that most fish scientists believe fish are capable of feeling pain or at least should be treated as if they did and I'm also with you that this topic is a (socio-) political one (and that fish need more PR). I just don't agree with your if-then connection. Whether or not fish are capable of feeling pain cannot be a majority decision, not even if the majority comes from a group of RG fish people. Therefore, the "result" "X fish scientists on RG think that fish are capable of feeling pain" alone won't lead anywhere. (which takes me back to the beginning of this post)

Best wishes and thanks for bringing up an interesting topic,

Anna

From long experience with fish handling especially ornamental fish, I can say yes. Fish can feel pain in response to various stimuli. The long monitoring of aquarium fish confirmed this observation. Stress reactions may be some kind of pain reflection. However, many people ignore this fact when they deal with fish in contrast to other pet animals like dogs or cats.

I deeply appreciate your idea and aim of this question.

Best wishes.

SM Najim

Unless sound science can clearly demonstrate that fish unequivocally are sentient (have the higher cognitive ability to process all stimuli and interpret them, i.e. are able to think, have emotions, etc.), their ability to "feel" pain is pure speculation. However, this does not negate the responsibility to treat fish humanely (i.e. with compassion and some empathy), and avoid purposeful, malicious cruelty.

Fish can feel lots of things, including pain I am sure. Are these emotions - no. Does the fact that fish can "feel" stimuli make them sentient - no. Could fish be sentient - yes but I doubt that most or any are. 

In regards to treatment and fishing - again do fish feel a stress involved in fishing - yes I expect they do. Is a fishing hook painful - no I expect it is not. Should we use best practice when fishing - yes I think so (same applies to using fish in experiments).

I agree that fish feel pain, some times stress. It can see from the body colour changes. mainly observed in smaller freshwater fish.