One important issue for philosophy and science is the choice between dualism (soul-body) or monism. I think, between soul and body there is a continuity. As Donald Davidson said, in the humans there is an "anomalous monism". So, for all who study the mind it is very important to explain how works this continuity body-soul or body-mind or body-spirit.

You people call this philosophy?...ASJ

It would seem that the animal can not live without its principle of living. But there are those who say that it can survive in some sort of suspended animation. Who am I to say?

Gnosis (knowledge) is meaningless without a subject. What is the subject of this gnosis? Which propositions are essential to it? It is one thing to propose some secret gnosis. It is another to state clearly what is meant by it.

My real question, however, is meaning. What does it mean to say that the soul leaves the body? Must one undergo some secret initiation at the hands of the 'Master' to know these things?

ASJ: "You people call this philosophy?..."

From my viewpoint, yes. I can not speak for those who follow some secret gnosis.

No wonder the world is going to the dogs!

It amazes me that we have gone from discussing Astral Projection to ClimateGate, a scientific fraud perpetrated in order to push Socialist goals.

What have we seen in the past few days, but the IPCC admitting that they were wrong in pretending that the Himalayan glaciers are melting?

The people who perpetrated this fraud ought to go to jail. They won't because their governments support their goals. In their minds the ends justify the means.

The fundamental problem is that Global Warming --- and the Socialist agenda which is behind it --- is a sort of religion. Its doctrines therefore are more important to its adherents than the evidence. It is ever too easy to lose a few tapes, effectively destroying the incriminating evidence.

I truly fear for my children. They live in a world in which there are men who believe that we ought to kill off the 'excess population.'

Charles Dickens wrote a popular novella, ***A Christmas Carol*** about just the sort of people we now see in positions of power. It is all too sad.

My children will be among the first to go once the Socialists establish their New World Order.

My son is severely retarded. My daughter is not too bright. They certainly will be have to go.

Do glaciers help with Astral Projection? I fail to see the link. ClimateGate seems quite unrelated to Astral Projection. Or is there some secret gnosis connecting them?

I understand that psychologists have hypothesized that out-of-body experiences can be explained as the result of confusion about one's body image... it becomes difficult to perceive oneself in the body. The mind then creates imaginative details to make sense of the experience.

It really makes perfect sense to me.

But who am I to say?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

SC: "What does this have to do with Astral Projection?"

You know that is precisely what I asked above when someone named Sidney Clouston tried to change the subject to ClimateGate. I tried my best to get the discussion back on track, but Mr. Clouston kept diverting it away from Astral Projection. I have no idea why he chose to do that. Would you?

First of all, it's not soul vs. body. There is no such separation at least not when we speak of astral projection. Humans (and probably all the things in this Universe), we have 3 bodies - physical, astral and mental. The astral projection refers to separation of the physical and astral body while keeping the awareness of the astral one.

Ok, I must be honest, I don't know yet what astral projection is (not enough experience). I used to think that it's the same like lucid dreaming, which is quite easy to learn. However, few months ago, someone who I really trust told me that the two things are not the same.

While you lucid dream, you stay in your own consciousness/brain. When you astrally project, you go outside of your own consciousness. While on the astral plane, you can meet other people and visit places you don't actually know and so on. This cannot be done while lucid dreaming. For example every time I try to go to a new place while lucid dreaming, it's like I hit a wall and just have to stay where I am.

Technically, I think that astral projection requires very good awareness of your astral body, something that you have to train for. You can get an idea of it sometimes when you have difficulties to fall asleep and you finally start drowsing and you may feel it separating from your physical body. And if you get scared or woke up by some sudden sound, you get very nasty feeling of getting back to quickly.

DS: "Humans (and probably all the things in this Universe), we have 3 bodies - physical, astral and mental."

One can imagine such things. What are these other 'bodies' composed of, astral or mental atoms? Do these 'bodies' have 'souls?'

VS: "i guess i caused this distribences to begin with."

No. Your statement was relevant. It was Mr. Clouston who kept on with irrelevant comments about ClimateGate.

Here is how to have out-of-body 'experiences.'

http://www.shaktitechnology.com/Shakti_magnetic.htm

@Bill Overcamp - I'm not arguing about atoms, ok? There is a question about astral projection which presuppose that we have an agreement about the possibility to astrally project. If we agree on that, then yes, there are 3 bodies and everyone who wishes may experience them.

If we don't agree on the existence of astral projection, then the whole thread is nonsense and so is my answer.

You know, I'm a physicist, but it's clear to me - if you want to deal with metaphysics, you don't look for physical laws. Because they are of no use in that domain. Just like when you dream, you can easily fly. You don't ask where's gravity, don't you? Well, this is the same.

DS: "First of all, it's not soul vs. body."

DS: "You know, I'm a physicist, but it's clear to me - if you want to deal with metaphysics, you don't look for physical laws. Because they are of no use in that domain. Just like when you dream, you can easily fly. You don't ask where's gravity, don't you? Well, this is the same."

I am not sure what you mean in the first statement, or where you derive the idea that one has three bodies. What makes a body be a body, if not physical properties of some sort? And what gives rise to physical properties if not physical laws? Without such laws the word 'body' is meaningless.

Let us suppose one has these three bodies. What gives rise to the difference between them? If the mental body differs from the astral body in some way, then there must be at least one property in which they differ. What properties denotes each of them?

SC: "The Kabbalah posits that the human soul has three elements, the nefesh, ru'ach, and neshamah."

The Kabbalah is a Fourteenth Century Spanish invention, though many claim it to have ancient roots.

As to the three claimed elements of the soul, 'nefesh,' 'ru'ach,' and 'neshamah' I would first ask why anyone should believe in such things.

And secondly, what --- if anything --- do they tell us about astral projection?

Well, we can submit many reasons about many things, we can change the meanings, the interpretations, and etc...

but about out of body experience: we can sense some made thoughts with considering on them, like a prophet that claim: ( he can feel a great power or he can hear god or he can leave her body awhile).

Also by meditation you can feel an emotion as it...

@B.C. If you really want to know more about the 3 bodies, I recommend you "Initiation into hermetics" by Franz Bardon. There you can have plenty of information and training. And it's religion-free.

Because I really am not experienced enough to give a proper answer. I'm good in lucid dreaming and my astral projections limit more or less to random near body experiences.

But I will give you my 5 cents.

In short, we don't speak of physics here, so please, don't try to catch the errors in the theory from physical point of view - this is simply wrong. Just as wrong, as it is to try to search for the Divine with physical measurements. This simply cannot happen. Or at least I don't know how it could happen.

So, forget about the "physical properties". It's like asking what are the physical differences between 2 poems - well, you can measure the number of words if you want to, but this is not what the difference is. This is just what we can measure. The real differences are subjective and can be experienced only by our brains (or those of another sentient beings that like poetry).

As for the 3 bodies:

First, I don't think the number is absolute...I think it depends on the theory you're following. But in the case - the physical body is clear, we can touch it, it's there. The astral body is supposed to be the emotional body - much more fluid than the physical one and much less "dense". You cannot touch it with you hands. But you can experience it and it can give you new information of the environment, so, it's real. Also, in rare cases, it can even interact with the environment, but this is hard and well, rare.

The mental body is the body of ideas (I think) and it's even less dense. So far I have not much knowledge of it. But basically the 3 bodies are not something separate, they just mark the different levels of existence in our universe and of our awareness of it. Something like the difference between the interface of the OS, the code behind it and the binary code behind it all. They are all there, but in 90% of the time you care only about the interface.

Bardon says that while the physical plane is the world of the space-time, the astral is the world of space, while the mental doesn't have space or time. This is from the theory.

As for how I know they are 3, well, I do the exercises and I see what happens. Just like in physics, the key is observation. So far, I have an idea only of the astral body and not a very clear one. But I definitely feel it. So this is my proof and it's enough for me.

@SC Sorry, I'm not much of a fan of Kabbalah (though I admit the Tree of Life is very useful) or to scientific or religious orders. In short - I believe in observation/experience. Because in the end, you're always alone. No matter of your religion or social network. And I don't mean to offend you, but you simply didn't share any experience so that's all I can say.

And back to Bill - if you want to prove me wrong or to point me weak sides of what I said, I bet you can. But if you like really want to know - you can know it only from personal experience. Everything else is just words.

DS: "And back to Bill - if you want to prove me wrong or to point me weak sides of what I said, I bet you can. But if you like really want to know - you can know it only from personal experience. Everything else is just words."

I'm really not trying to prove anything.

From what I understand the best explanation for astral projection is a disturbance in the angular gyrus, though there are some other possible origins, such as the hippocampus or the parahippocampal region...

http://www.shaktitechnology.com/obe.htm

I'm sure that further reserch will clear up the different areas.

SC: "I wanted to discuss these and others..."

What's stopping you?

SC: "Why don't you tell us your answer first and secondly, why should I

tell you?"

Well, If I had an answer I would tell you. You of course are free to do as you please.

@Bill

The problem with your explanation is that it doesn't explain how a disturbance in the brain can produce new information unknown to the brain until that moment, which the astral projection can and does. I think you're mistaking the cause and the consequence.

SC: "Why is Astral Projection in the topic Philosophy of Biology?"

Well, so far as I am aware, no one claims that anything but animals undergo astral projection. If you can point out some other sort of being which should be included then it might be appropriate to change the topic.

SC: "Secondly, why don't you explain what this statement means from Aristotle about the Soul, since you have posted most of his treatise on this subject in this topic in question?"

Well, so far I have seen nothing in ***On the Soul*** suggesting Mr. Abraham P. Bos' claim. If you can point out the particular text he claims to be working from then we can certainly discuss it.

He may be looking at some other book, such as ***On the Parts of Animals.***

DS: "The problem with your explanation is that it doesn't explain how a disturbance in the brain can produce new information unknown to the brain until that moment, which the astral projection can and does. I think you're mistaking the cause and the consequence."

First of all, one needs to show that new information comes from astral projection. From what I understand, astral projection is not readily reproducible. So it is difficult to verify such a claim.

@ Bill - yes, of course, you are technically right. However, this doesn't solve the problem. It's like the G-spot search, I know I have it, yet, some scientists claim I don't :) Who's right? Though, to be honest, the last research I read said that some women have it, others - don't.

Anyway, it's true, astral projection is not easily reproducible. The question is are you interested in the real thing or in the official version. Because officially, until recently scientists didn't admit lucid dreaming. But now it's different. So, who knows...Difficult doesn't always mean impossible.

DS: "The question is are you interested in the real thing or in the official version."

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. But it seems that here we reverse that and suppose that extraordinary claims should be given a pass.

BO: " But it seems that here we reverse that and suppose that extraordinary claims should be given a pass."

No, not really. What I say is that if you're interested in the real thing, since it's subjective, the only way to find out is to experience it for yourself. And then to decide what is the reason and what - the consequence. That's all.

P.S. Of course, you could think of some clever experiment and to try to prove it. The only problem is that an experiment should be repeatable and it's hard to find many people who can astrally project with the same aptitude and who wish to make themselves available for many such experiments. It's not so much that such experiments cannot be conducted, it's more a logistic problem. Finding the correct people, motivating them to participate, creating the good conditions. Astral projections are not like switching your TV on and off. And what's even more - many people that are interested in such activities tend to dislike the scientific approach. So it will be a nightmare to work with them. At least for me.

But personally, I'm convinced that having the correct training, you should be able to repeat the experiment as many times as you wish, as long as your body is satisfied and relaxed and your spirit is ok. The problem is that we don't know ourselves well enough to keep the experiment clean. One should have a great personal "hygiene" to be able to participate in such experiments and be useful. And the people with such "hygiene" are very few and hard to find and probably unlikely to agree to do it.

Otherwise, it's fairly easy to find 1000 people who claim they can astrally project, 10% of them probably can and will do it at least once, but then they will screw in repeating the experiment for "spiritual reasons". There are no such reasons (or at least they are unlikely), the problem is that the people won't be able to reproduce the same conditions in their bodies and minds. And you'll be left with 1% (of the 1000) of truly capable people. 10 people is not too few, but counting the error that exists in any experiment, you'll get something like 5-6 good experiment subjects. At which point your statistics will really start to sucks :)

MB: "Bill's original post was one that I understood to be philosophical - if one says 'the soul leaves the body, what does this mean?' The question does not imply that souls can leave bodies, or even that souls exist as things that are seperable from bodies....It invites a discussion of the meaning of a statement, without any inference that any part of the statement should be taken as 'fact' or not....."

It is, of course, a philosophical question. If Aristotle was right --- that the soul is the formulable essence of a natural body having life potentially in it --- then it would seem to be senseless to suppose that it can 'leave' the body, since being 'in' a body is the condition for its very existence.

On the other hand, Aristotle speaks of the mind as an independent substance implanted within the soul. I am not at all sure what he means by that, or whether it is worthy of belief. But at least if the mind is an independent substance then it might leave the soul and consequently the soul's body.

No, it's not a philosophical question. At least not if you're interested in astral projection itself. If you just want to talk about Aristotle, then it is whatever you say it is and I'm off the discussion :)

The only reason why I call it subjective experience is described in my P.S. It's not that it is completely subjective, like dreams most of which are really created by our memories (or at least part of them are).

But it's because 90% of the people will never care to develop to master astral projection to the level you could study them and it.

Astral projection is a skill that takes a lot of dedication, that's why anyone interested in studying it as a science will hit a wall finding the subjects to study. It's like studying how people read without having enough people able to read. The only way is to get a group of people and make sure they learn to read and then to shove them in the fMRI. Then you have science. Because I don't think it's hard to learn it, maybe not more than getting an university degree in sciences, maybe even less. But 90% of the people will ask "why bother?" and they will be completely right.

So it's not that it is subjective, it is an objective phenomena and I'm quite sure it can gather real world information and I have my reasons to say it. The problem is that the objects of the study are subjects and that they are quite few.

Hi i try add my point of view

About 7 years ago i found some web page interested about astral travel at this time it seems crazy to me but worth a try , so i try it .After about a year of training (im pretty layzi) i experince my first OOBE , and in the year many for me new states like hypanagic imaginery,trance state , paralisis,feeling of "energi".This experince its changing my life and i start interest in this topic and similar even more.I learn lucid dreaming and many esoteric suff and experinced about 15 OOBE.Esoteric text is nice to read but is large mess and is not extacly science.So i digg deaper in go back to science start learn some neuroscinece .. I never decide is something trought or not this is trap to witch many people on bout side of wall(science/esoteric) fall, only option is be still undecidet and cout only probabilitis and get more data.

Now after 7 years i can explain almoust every feealing in trance and OOBE.And how to get theoreticly to OOBE sate, but still remain main question its all information generated by brain or is some external soure of data.I experinced few things than still cant explain but its not be in scientific conditions so no proof only enought for me to continou searching more answers.

Astral body

hard to say if exist or not , after a time i more close to site its not exist because we dount realy need it.All the fealings is explainable by multisensory integration and its rules,actualy this rules is very usefull to get to OOBE state or Lucid dreaming.So brain can create a feealing of body or even more than one (my record is 7 at once) and its possible describe that in term of neuroscience (chnges in multisensory integration in TPJ, R gyrus angularis).Now is realively easi experince something like OOBE by using multisensory rules easies is mirror box.Still can exist some body sending some information to brain and brain can construct feealing of body from them but with current technology is almoust imposible to found it .

For me is now not have point argue if exist some astral body or not but try to find if its posible precived/get information that its normaly imposible.This little simplyfi the problem because for this is not requied "leave the body" we need only somthing like telepathy or extrasenory preception of something witch is form esoteric staindpoint more easi to learn.This is one of my goal now try to learn this things and test it if i found something try to get more people test in scientific conditions.For me even if be all generated by brain deffinitly worth it , i learn very much about myself , gain better control , concentration ,experinced many fun in lucid dreams...

Roman, I think you mistake astral projection and lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming indeed can be connected to the stressed brain, simply because when stressed, the brain spend more time in the phases of dream which can lead to lucid dreaming. But lucid dreaming is not astral projection and it is to be expected that you wouldn't be able to obtain new information in this state. Simply because lucid dreaming is a function of the brain. And to me, it also happens when my brain is not entirely asleep, usually in the morning.

Astral projection on the other side, is something which is not a function of the brain by definition. It is a new state of awareness. It is more related to the states you get into when using psychedelic drugs. I don't have experience with such drugs or with AP, so I don't speak from experience, I'm only retelling what I've read or heard about them.

@ Denitsa Staicova bouth lucid dream and OOBE can be trigered by stress :Experinece in OOBE can be also explain by neuroscinece is also only a function of the brain .In bouth OOBE and LD is obtaining information pausible from magical staindpoint but in LD is more harder.Try to figured out if astral body exist is now dead end , we must focusing on investigation if it pausible get information by extrasensory way.

here is few videos about multisensory integration and related ilusions https://brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/msi2

the "astral body" is constructed by the same way .Is realitively simple there is only few basic rules how signals integrates together to create a ilusion of body or reality.

We discuss consciousness and OBE also here:

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Scientific_research_of_consciousness_what_is_the_best_approach#view=55ae76095f7f7196368b459d

Based on Franz Bardon's  terminology it means that you leave the material body and travel with astral body.

Some details can be found also here:

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Scientific_research_of_consciousness_what_is_the_best_approach#view=55ae76095f7f7196368b459d