Извините меня, пожалуйста, но я считаю, что  мы просто подменяем наше ощущение количества ощущений объектов-мер и их изменений-событий идеей пространства-времени. Отсюда наши затруднения в их использовании.

Excuse me, please, but I think we just substitute our sense of the number of senses objects-measures and their changes-events on idea of space-time . Hence our difficulty in their use.

There are cultural aspects to the perception of space, however defined.

A picture of a running horse (in our culture) may be perceived as a dead horse by Aboriginals, because in their art there always is an implicit birds-eye perspective. Also their songs often describe the country side as if one walks a trail, supposedly helps to keep on the right track for hundreds of miles without a map. 

So, and not just for teasing, not only what is this space, but also what is your problem with it?  

An interesting and successful line of researcher was developed by my Brazilian colleague José Aparecido da Silva, please see the RG link below

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose_Aparecido_Da_Silva/citations

I think it would be an interesting idea if we assume that the egocentric perception of space it is done by learning in early childhood. We have feedback by our muscle activity and the orientation of our legs and arms in space so we can learn the distances around us. The brain activity which is co-related with such actions became a stable pattern which allows to imagine distances. These experiences could be transferred to other perceptions like visual perception or hearing, If so seeing has also a spacial information.

Do anybody know if there exists (experimental) investigations in the individual development of egocentric spatial scales or the idea of space?

Joris,

cultural differences in the perception are an indicator for a learned skill. That would be an interesting argument to confirm (aspects of) my idea.

Thanks!

Hi Wilfried,

Not so sure that distance or 3 D space are psychological notions at all, let alone a neuropsychological or an evolutionary one.

When people cross a street and check the distance of the car, it is the difference of the percept that seems to guide motor movement, there is psychology on that, some Lee from Edinburgh.

Learning movements and movement patterns are unlikely to be hard wired in the form of Cartesian coordinates, a rather recent invention on evolutionary time line, and may be more related to sense of rhythm and music than on high school physics and math. Why not use projective geometry, that is if you would assume geometry is at stake?

Joris

I think that the "funnel" structure of egocentric space, as shown by Silva's work and by the "Ponzo Train Illusion" has to be partially innate - everybody has the same structure and use it since having the eyes open.

Alfredo, if you see a horizon, and things getting smaller if they move away from you, surely that does not make it innate?

Alfredo,

the structure is innate but you have to calibrate ...

It is innate because it is essential for autonomous animals and humans to measure distances. It is difficult to size up distances with the eyes. Here we need the experiences of grasping and looking to the grasped objects. in this period we learn. 

Joris, 

I did not claim a Cartesian geometry. May be it is the optimal design to move around but our brain has its own measurement system (see Nobel prize 2014 in medicine).

We performed various experiments on the judgement of egocentric distance. The short answer is that we use many different cues, and that our vision is not well calibrated to our hand. See for instance the attached publications.

Article Sensory Integration Does Not Lead to Sensory Calibration

Article A new binocular cue for absolute distance: Disparity relativ...

Article Objects can be localized at positions that are inconsistent ...

Article The effect of variability in other objects' sizes on the ext...

Article Are People Adapted to Their Own Glasses?

Article The influence of previously seen objects' sizes in distance judgments

Article Does Size Matter?

Jeroen,

thank you for your interesting papers. 

Jeroen,

For me “information” about the outside world is represented by waves and oscillations.

http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/2.1.1087.2009

The waves and oscillations change the biological structure of the brain tissue in very many levels.

1. Level: The biomolecular level

There is the first level build up by the biomolecules. They encompass the amino acids, the nucleonic acids, the proteins, enzymes, the ion channels and ion pumps, and the so-called signaling molecules of the membranes. They encompass further all and any neurotransmitters, neuromodulators, and hormones.

On this level, the characteristic waves and oscillations belong to the electromagnetic spectrum, primarily in the VIS and IR regimes. (See e.g. Andreas Barth, The infrared absorption of amino acids side chains.) Optogenetics make also use of the knowledge about this biomolecular level and its behavior.

The most interesting feature of these waves and oscillations are not their frequencies but their wavelength, which are in the nm – mm range. William H. Calvin’s hexagonal patterns (see “The Cerebral Code”) are very well suited to wavelengths of the IR part of this spectrum! Wavelengths are best suited to measure and calibrate distances!

Let me remind, that the retinal cells as well as the Place and Grid Cells are organized in hexagonal patterns. These hexagonal patterns make it possible to “catch” the phase information of the various electromagnetic waves and oscillations, which is important for my holographic hypothesis. Their characteristic dimensions correspond to about the wavelength of the biomolecules vibrational and rotational modes.

The second level is the cellular level. Here we find, inter alia, the ion gradients which “effect” the local field potentials and the action potentials. A third level is build up by the white matter. Here we find the EEG oscillations.

This post is an excerpt of another post of mine on another thread! Does it say anything to you? Do you see any analogies to your work?

Ursula

Jerome,

do I understand right, that the location of objects in space is part of our perception?

Hi Wilfried,

Another interesting constraint on the perception of distance is the perceiver's ability to travel that distance (a finding that suggests that organisms don't perceive distance per se, but rather traverse-ability or some other action-scaled extent).

The cited papers provide a good intro into these theories and their empirical pursuits.

Best,

Brandon

Article Embodied Perception and the Economy of Action

Article Distance Perception

Article Multimodally specified energy expenditure and action-based d...

Brandon, thank you for the literature. That's what I asked for.

Dear all,

Merry Christmas to you and a happy new year.