The interaction of photons with matter such as Compton and Thompson scattering are well-known at higher photon energies. What about the scattering events between photons? Those likely occur at higher energies where the photons resemble to be particles? If it is possible, the cross-section may be extremely low.
Yes!! Photon-photon scattering is possible. Indeed high-energy photons increase the probability, but the cross-section is extremely low and so a high photon flux is required. An alternative approach is to use low-energy high-intensity lasers, which modify the vacuum in a nonlinear manner leading to photon-photon scattering. I refer you to this article: Nature Photonics 4, 92 - 94 (2010) / doi:10.1038/nphoton.2009.261, with a nice summary here: Nature Photonics 4, 72 - 74 (2010) / doi:10.1038/nphoton.2009.277 .
In "Periodic quantum gravity and cosmology" theory, universe begins with scattering of some 10^62 Grandfather photons each having energy of order 10^19 GeV.
Raman scattering deals with scattering of photon in a transparent medium.
photon photon scattering is not possible
photon only interact with matter and then only transfer of energy takes place..
1) Philosophy: Matter=(Substance + Field). Then, photon can interact with another photon, since both belong to the Matter.
2)Physics: heavy photons (gamma quanta) can be born in a number of particle interactions. Backward processes are, hence. possible, but probability is small since we can not focus gamma quanta so efficiently as charged particles in LHC. Optical photons, hence, also can interact each other. At 1e23 W/cm^2 production of electron-positron pairs is expected
Hmmm normally bosons don't interact but high energy photons can interact through higher order processes (through some dodgy particle like transformation into fermions) so in theory its possible to get photon-photon scattering... then there is the case of photon condensates and their funny particle-like properties...
Yes!! Photon-photon scattering is possible. Indeed high-energy photons increase the probability, but the cross-section is extremely low and so a high photon flux is required. An alternative approach is to use low-energy high-intensity lasers, which modify the vacuum in a nonlinear manner leading to photon-photon scattering. I refer you to this article: Nature Photonics 4, 92 - 94 (2010) / doi:10.1038/nphoton.2009.261, with a nice summary here: Nature Photonics 4, 72 - 74 (2010) / doi:10.1038/nphoton.2009.277 .
Hi Adam, how much flux is required for there to be sufficient intensity to actually modify vacuum through coincident simultaneous multphoton overlap? At such a point the flux is sufficiently dense that instantaneous multi-photon process is near indistinguishable from the generation of high enough energy photons.
Yes, photon-photon reaction is possible in theory, but the cross-section would be extremely low. In principle it would be possible to produce a couple electron-positron from photon-photon interaction of the right energy, but this would be a weak process, very unlikely to happen. QED could predict the cross section expected value for photon-photon interaction/scattering.
Look at the PDG! You can see there the _measured_ total cross section for photon-photon scattering (elastic + inelastic).Not nothing surprising, by the way! Read carefully classic books on optics, on QED, and you will realize that it would be highly surprising, if photons had not interacted! The physical reason is very simple and is depicted by the Feynman diagram with a square box built by electron-positron pairs (photons are on the corners). Any classic QED books discuss this. Visit libraries, young friends!
I would assume that any reaction with a final state of two photons (e.g. e+/e- -> yy) could be time reversed to a photon/photon interaction.
Photon-photon scattering is perhaps one of the most
fundamental quantum electrodynamics (QED) processes
which may also result in nonlinear optical effects in vacuum
such as the birefringence of the refractive index seen by a
probe field under the action of either a dc magnetic ~or electric!
field or intense laser pumping , multiwave mixing
, and merging of two photons into one ~i.e., sum frequency
generation! under the action of a dc field. All of
these effects are based on the lowest order, so called ‘‘box’’
diagram approximation, ~It was also proposed that
using hexagonal diagram, high-order harmonics , and
second-order subharmonic, a so-called photon splitting,
can be generated with a dc magnetic field.! If observed, these
effects may provide a fundamental optical test of QED.
realistically speaking, it all may happen if the light intensity exceeds
a so called Wigner intensity, ~10^29 W/cm^2. At the current state-of-the-art of lasers,
we can get up to ~10^22 W/cm^2. There are a few tricks one mey try to play, for example, using a DC field, or strongly inhomogeneous light/fields, see e.g.
http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan/PUBL/AEK.pubs/109.pdf
An analysis of the Poynting vector and energy flow of interacting electromagnetic waves in free space demonstrates that although fields may pass through each other with no impediment, some or all of the energy conveyed by the interacting or superimposed waves reflects off the superposition. Interacting or superimposed electromagnetic waves exchange a portion of their energy. It would be interesting to consider whether this classical behavior may be attributed to real photons interacting momentarily to create virtual photons associated with the storage of reactive energy in free space. In this sense, it may well be that photons do interact with each other at arbitrarily low intensities. The paper below explains the energy flow in classical superimposed electromagnetic waves. Additional description and space-time energy diagrams of interacting waves are available in a follow-on paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265849380_On_Energy_Flow_in_Standing_Waves
Conference Paper On Energy Flow in Standing Waves
Article On the Superposition and Elastic Recoil of Electromagnetic Waves
Early History of PhotonPhoton Collisions
• Surprisingly large e+ e hadronic cross sections observed at CEA by BOLD detector in 1969, increasing with cm energy.
• Speculations by Richter on new hadronic physics of electron!
• Kinoshita and SJB at Cornell Faculty Club 1969
• Cross section for e+ e e+ e X logarithmically increasing
with electronpositron energy
• BOLD detector did not measure nal state energy.
• Maybe TwoPhoton Collisions
Burt Richter, was touring the country explaining that he had made the monumental discovery that the electron was actually a little hadron, i.e., a strongly interacting particle like the proton, only much smaller in diameter. (This discovery, or at least the same experimental results, had been observed a few years earlier at the Cambridge Electron Accelerator, a joint Harvard–MIT venture. But no one believed it, and the machine was decommissioned.)
Early TwoPhoton Papers
•PRODUCTION OF ELECTRONS AND POSITRONS BYA COLLISION OF TWO PARTICLES. By L.D. Landau, E.M. Lifschitz. 1934.
Published in Phys.Z.Sowjetunion 6:244,1934
•PROPOSAL FOR MEASURING THE PI0 LIFETIME BY PI- PRODUCTION IN ELECTRON ELECTRON OR ELECTRON - POSITRON COLLISIONS.
By F.E. Low (MIT, LNS),. Jun 1960., Published in Phys.Rev.120:582-583,1960
•TWO - PHOTON CROSS-SECTION FOR W - PAIR PRODUCTION BY COLLIDING BEAMS., By Peter D. Pesic (SLAC),. SLAC-PUB-1188, Feb 1973. 21pp.
Published in Phys.Rev.D8:945,1973
•A METHOD FOR MEASURING THE PHOTON - PHOTON TOTAL CROSS-SECTION., By Leo Stodolsky (SLAC),. SLAC-PUB-0825, Oct 1970. 11pp.
Published in Phys.Rev.Lett.26:404,1971
Dear Strokovsky
I mean the likelihood of direct photon-photon scattering and the corresponding cross-section as well as threshold energy if available.
The interaction of photon with e- and e+ after pair- production is categorized as
photon -matter scattering.
If I am not wrong photon-photon scattering has been studied by Max Delbruck in the years 30
Photon Photon interaction is not only possible (as well known since the 30's of the last century, as noted by Giazotto) but very recently experimental test using Free Electron Laser Devices have been proposed, see e. g.
Double free-electron laser oscillator for photon–photon collisions
A. Torre, G. Dattoli, I. Spassovsky, V. Surrenti, M. Ferrario, and E. Milotti
JOSA B, Vol. 30, Issue 11, pp. 2906-2914 (2013)
http://dx.doi.org/10.1364/JOSAB.30.002906
Pino
Dear Dattoli
Nice proposal!
Gamma energy? Photon flux (intensity)? The detector array? estimated cross-section?
Regards
Parvin
Less than a hundred's year ago many wellknown physicists (Born, Frenkl, Infeld and many others) mentioned nonlinear electrodynamics. Mathematically cumbersome and tedious unsolved tasks, but could be solved in the future. A proper Lagrangian shoud be found and the finite cross section will be calculated. I am not able to do it!
Please, see the paragraph 127 "Photon-photon scattering" in "Quantum electrodynamics" by V.B.Berestetskii et al, Pergamon Press Ltd, 1982 (ISBN 0-08-026503-0).
Some other interesting effects with the photons - coalescence and splitting of photons you can find, for example, in the attached paper.
In ,quantum electrodynamic, non-elastic photon–photon scattering becomes possible when the combined energy is large enough to create virtual electron–positron pairs, but when two photons not traveling in the same direction always have a minimum combined energy in their center of momentum frame, and it is this energy and the electric field strengths associated with it, which determine particle-antiparticle creation, and associated scattering phenomena...
Yes! it is possible and it is elsewise called the Delbruck scattering.
However, no direct measurement has been performed so far as far as I know..
The idea is that a photon momentarilly splits into a e-e+ pair. The other photon is absorbed by the electron and when they meet again, two photons are produced in different angles.
This is a second order process with low cross section. However, this process is the main mechanism of energy loss for ultrahigh energy gamma rays in astrophysics.
Gammas with energy more than 80 TeV are assumed to interact with CMB photons, losing energy this way.
Now the next big question is how can we measure it?
Yes of course you can construct loop diagrams in Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) where photon-photon scattering is possible. In tree level this scattering is not possible because even though photons are the mediators of electromagnetic interactions, they themselves do not carry any charge. However, in QED, a photon can easily couple to the e+e- pair. Using this coupling four times, it is possible to scatter light by light. See for example the notes available on Nuclear and Particle physics in the web page of the University of Manchester. It is also possible to have a rough estimate of the cross section in the following way. You can see that amplitude is proportional to g4 and cross-section is proportional to g8. Therefore the cross section is proportional to α4. Here α is the dimensionless QED coupling whose value is 1/137.
http://oer.physics.manchester.ac.uk/NP/Notes/Notes/Notesse30.xht
Lets make clear the difference between photon-photon –interaction– and –scattering– , which are completely different things. We must keep in mind that there is no photon-photon vertex in QED, but photon-photon scattering is possible through higher-order process involving virtual particles (in this case, electron-positron virtual pairs would be part of the most relevant vertex [photon-elec.-posit.], since electrons(positrons) are the charged particles with the lowest mass... therefore "the easier" to produce -virtually-. Easiest = lowest energy budget needed). Actually, in talks with Prof. D. Baldomir, we agreed the term "interaction" is misapplied in many situations/discussions... because interaction refers to a fundamental vertex processes (with a single node). Many times, when the word "interaction" is used –specially when talking about gamma-ray absorption in Very High Energy (VHE) Astrophysics– the correct term to use should be scattering. In VHE, I think the correct term to use is pair-creation through photon-photon inelastic scattering (where electron-positron pairs are created from photon-photon collision)
For reference on "pair-creation through photon-photon inelastic scattering (collision)" it worth reading the paper from SLAC, where this was first measured:
DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.79.1626
Article Positron Production in Multiphoton Light-by-Light Scattering
Dear Mr. Arsioli!
1) When you say "In VHE, I think the correct term to use is pair-creation through photon-photon inelastic scattering (where electron-positron pairs are created from photon-photon collision)`Is photon -photon scattering possible?", do you mean, that there might be inelastic scattering _without_ the elastic one?
2) Do you believe that "interaction" might be without scattering _and_, vice versa, a scattering migh be without an interaction?
The possibility that gamma-gamma interaction exist in higher order (non linear Maxwell equations), of course including QED but the required mathematics is too cumbersome.I have not tried at all to enter!
As I understood up to now, photon-photon scattering is possible (two photons in - two photons out), but only through high order process in QED...
ATLAS spot light-by-light scattering : http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/66878
also, here is the released letter:
https://cds.cern.ch/record/2220773/files/ATLAS-CONF-2016-111.pdf
But please, I am learning, and I see you have a vast background. Could you please help me (us) clarify the terminology:
Is it ok to say "photon-photon scattering is possible through higher-order process involving virtual particles" ? (I think yes, but if there is a problem there, could you clarify )
By Interaction, i mean :
Electron-electron interaction : https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjC_6uixJvRAhVMVxQKHX0eCXgQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysics.stackexchange.com%2Fquestions%2F248512%2Ftree-level-feynman-diagrams-of-electron-positron-interaction&psig=AFQjCNHlk0E_l7dmtWDX9pV97IkBuh5H2w&ust=1483174104867516
In this sense, is it ok to say "Photon-Photon interaction exist" ?
https://cds.cern.ch/record/2220773/files/ATLAS-CONF-2016-111.pdf
http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/66878
https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQ1bDZwZvRAhXJPBQKHZFeBEEQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTwo-photon_physics&psig=AFQjCNGUsnK8DQ7KUbPCBevtZ6QFwDFlYQ&ust=1483173421708935
https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjC_6uixJvRAhVMVxQKHX0eCXgQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysics.stackexchange.com%2Fquestions%2F248512%2Ftree-level-feynman-diagrams-of-electron-positron-interaction&psig=AFQjCNHlk0E_l7dmtWDX9pV97IkBuh5H2w&ust=1483174104867516
Dear Dr. Arsioli!
What about the classical electrodynamics?
Why the blue light does not "see" the yellow one, for example?
Do teachers lie to children when teach them to the classical physics?
May be, teachers are right, because they are speaking about the photon propagation in an _empty_ space, but is the _physical_ vacuum an empty space? May be it is a physical medium?
For example: everybody knows that (for example!) the "blue" light from a laser is interacting with the "green" light from a laser, _IF_ the rays meet (cross each other) _in a medium_...
Concerning the physical vacuum: there IS a clear answer that it is a media!
Remember 3 fundamental things (at least!):
1) the Lamb shift: where it comes from?
2) The anomalous magnetic momentum of the electron: where it comes from?
3) The same - for the muon..
After these 3 phenomena are accepted (inavoidably, since those phenomena are experimentally proved!), it ibecomes obvious, that a photon can interact with another photon _in princip[e_!!! How strong the interaction is etc. - this is absolutely different question!
So, you do not need to apply to the 'High Energy Physics"! It is enough to look at the hydrogen atom energy levels (i.e. the atomic spectra):explain the Lamb shift!
Dear Dr. Arsiol!
Classical electrodynamics needs refined Maxwell equations (Frenkel works-Academy SSSR). Also the Dirac equation is probably only linear approximation. Moreover they are coupled system of the QED. Now I work to confirm the Riemann hypotesis about non trivial zeros of the Zeta function. I am in my late years.
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