Hi Roman

At the following link you will find evidence that self-organization can occur due to the development of electric and magnetic fields:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319618449_A_RANGE_OF_FIELDS_OVER_THE_SPECTRUM_IN_A_CELL_COLONY_MAY_CONTROL_THE_TIMING_OF_ITS_CELL_CYCLE

The quantum potential has a field structure that lies beneath it.

regards Tony Fleming

Conference Paper A range of fields over the spectrum in a cell colony may con...

The suggestion should be viewed in the light of Russell'e paradox, rather than  vis--a-vi3 HB.

Consciousness includes self-consciousness, so why invoke Russel's paradox?

The electrical brain function involves two types of transmission. One is synaptic, including pre-established pathways and physico-chemical processes; this one contributes, by characteristic  mechanisms, to the sensory and  conscous  activity. The second is ephaptic (made by volume conduction); it is a quantic  (ohmic) energy, transmitted with an extremely high speed to the whole scalp, and has no functional role in mental activity. Properly recorded, it may signal, instead, the functioning of the  cerebral centres, and can be used   in the paraclinical investigation of brain diseases.

Dan Michatl Psatta, the SWF is a more valid and more general description than classical mechanics although, in the classical limit, quantum mechanics gives the same results as classical mechanics. Petar Grujic What is the SWF doing in the project on the HB? Well, as a physical chemist, I am a pluralist i.e. not married in a catholic marriage to a single ontology. The SWF is a very mysterious thing with many ontologically different interpretations. So is consciousness. Why not combine the two mysteries in a single one? Maybe a Rabbi would call such a combination sacrilegious. However most Rabbis only know profane philosophy through what Maimonides told them about Aristotle. So, for them the soul is the form of the organism and it would not be too difficult to convince them that in the De Broglie - Bohm ontology the SWF is the form of a substance. So i hope that i am in a better position than Spinoza.

If the SWF is  a valid theory for the consciousness of a brain, generation of strong AI (conscious robots) is possible. See the following link sent by Tatsuo Tabata:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3165282/A

I think this question points out a possible candidate for consciousness. How might we investigate it?

The Hard Problem..

What is attempted here is a solution of the hard problem within the limits of quantum physics, Jaegwon Kim has tried to solve the problem within the limits of classical physics, with one obscure non-physical addition: supervenience. I do not think that he has succeeded to convince anyone that he has solved the hard problem. Anne Ross writes in an abstract "Conscious qualia have a basis in reality and should constrain models of that reality." I would agree with you, Anne, if you change this to: Conscious qualia have a basis in reality and should constrain models to that reality. Physics, as you correctly wrote, Anne, describes reality from a third person perspective.Therefore, a realistic model of consciousnes, which sees realiry from a first person perspective, must explain the first-person perspective in third-person perspective terms. All this is an introduction to a solution of the hard problem within the limits of quantum physics,

Hi Harry,

Am thinking about what you are saying. Are you saying we should not investigate it? Can you give me a reference for Jaegwon Kim? 

Cheers, Anne

Hi Anne,

First of all the references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaegwon_Kim

http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/physicalism-or-something-near-enough/

The second reference is Jaegwon Kim's most famous book

The Hard Problem (2)

Of course, I think that the SWF of the brain, In the De Broglie - Bohm interpretation, as a candidate of consciousness deserves investigation. The choice of a wave function, which is a complex whole, not a mixture, seems justified by the existence of coherent ( alpha, beta, delta and  theta) waves in EEG measurements. The next step is to propose a simple physical mechanism for the self- consciousness of the ego. Such a model is a loop, that is to say a system that can act and experience its own act by feedback. The SWF of the brain certainly fulfils these requirements. Being a pilot wave it orchestrates the acts carried out by the material particles and via the senses it gets feed-back of its own action. This procedure can be induced in a sufficiently complex robot, to make it aware of its ego, see: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3165282/A-polite-robot-uprising-Humanoids-glimmer-self-awareness-apologises-scientific-experiment.html.

Consciousness and Unconsciousness,

Consciousness can be distinguished from partial consciousness and from unconsciousness by disrupting the flow between a number of  synaptic connections, so that the total SWF disintegrates into a product of independent partial SWFs. Every partial SWF spans a different part of the brain. For wakefulness, the Reticular Activating System and its ascending connections to the various parts of the cerebral cortex as well as the cerebral cortex must be functional

Important remark;

The time-dependent SWF  initially only dealt with interacting

fermions. However the charged fermions also interact with

bosons called photons which are the quanta (particles) of the

 electromagnetic waves. They also play an important role in the

self-causation mechanism of consciousness (vision).

I have only a very vague notion of an optical implementation of backpropagating neurons but except an article we published a long time ago, i have nothing physical to offer.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44673876_Backpropagating_neurons_from_bichromatic_interaction_with_a_three-level_system

Article Backpropagating neurons from bichromatic interaction with a ...

Altered states of consciousness occur in cases of damage (or disfunction) of the brainstem reticular formation. This  is  modulated by  phyizico-chemical processes and has nothing in common with the quantic transmission of energy.

It is a huge difference between consciousness and cognition. Other scientists identify consciousness and conscience. These are very complicated different cerebral functions. Consciousess derives from a  largely propagated activatory mechanism: it can activate either sensory analysis, thinking, cognition, judgment or motor activities.

Dear Dan and Roman, Can one feel passively, that is in the absence of analytic sense activation? Or would you say that a stimulus (beyond a threshold value) triggers the activation mechanism?

True!  Reticular function activation depends on motivational grounds. Therefrom the relativity of our perceptions, of our cognition....

 Dear Dan and Roman, I guess that the answer to this question is not known. So i'll assume that Franz Brentano was right and that consciousness requires intentionality. In Husserl's terminology, the stimulus comes from the object of consciousmess and constitutes the noema of the conscious experience while the triggered active part cones from the subject and constitutes the noetic act.

Correct, once more. From my neurophysiological experience in man and animals, it resulted however that intentionality is of two types: one is instinctual, generated by the motivation brain stem centres (food procuring, defensive, aggressive) and occurs in animals and men; the second, superior, occurs only in men, and is generated by the frontal lobes judgment centres. Both are intermediated, however, by an activation of the reticular formation, and by a consecutive modulatory participation of the limbic lobe (Hippocampus, Amygdala). I synthetised these ideas in a work entitled "Electro-physiological Investigation in Brain Diseases",  published in:  "Scholar's books, Germany, 2016".

The direction of the noetic act from the energy providing region to the sensory cortex, after the triggering of the energy providing region by the incoming stimulus of the noema should be a guiding priciple in building conscious robots. Maybe backpropagating neurons should be used in the energy providing region.

Harry (if I may), in my humble opinion you need a process to understand a process. If you are going to invoke the Schrodinger wave function in physiology, what is the mechanism by which it does so? 

John, Physiology is a part of physics and physics, which includes chemistry, is ruled by the time-dependent Schroedinger equation.The problem is the state of the system. Is it a single or pure state or a mixture of states? I believe that the  messengers play a fundamental role in coordinating different parts of an organism and of individual cells in an integrated  whole. The Schroednger wave function can to a certain extent maintain and control this whole.This whole is a dynamic material system which determines the Schroedinger wave function by means of the Hamiltonian. The Schroedinger wave function reciprocally cintrols the material system. Mathematically, the dynamics of the Schroedinger wave function is determined by the time-dependent Schroedinger equation. In the limit where classical mechanics gives good results, the results obtained by the time-dependent Schroedinger equation are identical to the classical results. However, the Schroedinger wave function does not disappear.When you are awake, the Schroedinger wave function is your mind which gives you informaion to some extent on what is going in your physiology and whether you need medical help.

The mind is by far more complex than a wave function. In my opinion the quantum physics studies mostly the energies (unfortunately still confusing). Mind is much more than a simple field energy.

Dan Michael Pratta The SWF of the brain is characterized by many trillions of properties not just by the energy.

Harry, regarding the Schrodinger equation and consciousness, I have attached a recent paper that is contingent on cellular hierarchical interactions as the basis for 'mind'. Perhaps you could suggest how Schrodinger's equation can be applied in this context?

Roman, if you were directing that comment about vertical integration of calcium fluxes at me, I am the first to my knowledge to hypothesize that that process is derivative of the cell-cell signaling mechanisms that form structure and function during embryogenesis, culminating in hoemostasis (Torday and Rehan. Evolutionary Biology, Cell-Cell Communication and Complex Disease. Wiley, 2012). I doubt that the work you are referring to is of the same nature. Perhaps you could provide a reference?

Dear John, please consult Roger Sperry (1913 - 1994), Nobel prize 1981 on "nested hierarchies" in brain function:

http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/sperry/  and

https://sciphilos.info/docs_pages/docs_Sperry_emerg_mind_css.html

Dear Harry, thank you for the links to Roger Sperry. I see downward causation as a different way of expressing allostasis (see McEwen and Wainright). And with all due respect to both Sperry and to you, none of this information addresses the kind of mechanistic integration that I have provided as a continuum from embryogenesis to homeostasis and regeneration founded on cell-cell interactions mediated by growth factor signaling (see attached, for example). When combined with epigenetic inheritance, which is dependent on the sorting of epigenetic marks acquired from the environment by egg and sperm, one realizes that the unicellular state, like the multicellular state, is conscious since the sorting of the epigenetic marks during meiosis requires self-referential self-organization.

Sperry sustained the loclization theory of functions in the brain (neocortex)., This can be relevant for the limited extent of consciousness at various moments in time.  It has nothing to do with embriogenesis or homeostasis.

Dan Michael Pratta, I mentioned Roger Sperry because of his view on the emergence of hierarchy in order to introduce the notion of downward control instead of "mental" causation. Donald Campbell has replaced Sperry's downward control by downward causation within the framework of self-organization on the basis of Ilya Prigogine's thermodynamics of dissipative structures. See: http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/downward_causation.html

Brain must be too complex a problem to solve through ordinary quantum mechanics. Analogy seems to be interesting as a wavefunction but seems difficult to imagine as information seems to be transmitted faster than light.

Harry, thank you for the clarification, but as far as I am concerned as long as the perspective expressed is based on conventional descriptive biology it cannot reflect what the true underlying principles are.....in this case, consciousness. It's like the difference between Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity, the former being based on how attraction between bodies appears, whereas the latter links it to Relativity Theory as a distortion of the fabric of space-time. Description is non-predictive, whereas mechanism is predictive, i.e. the basic difference between soft and hard science.

Dear Munish Kumar, the brain only seems too complex a problem to solve because we see it as it now exists, not how it has evolved. By analogy, the origins and 'evolution' of the Cosmos also seemed insoluble and too complex until the Big Bang perspective was formulated. I propose the 'Big Bang' of Biology as the solution to the brain and consciousness.

I agree with you sir@Torday.

In this case John it is not "like the difference between Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity" but like the difference between Newtonian and the infinitely more complex theory of quantum mechanics, the implications of which you did not understand. The, same remark also applies to Munish who does not realize that non-locality of the wave function does precisely what seems similar to what he demands, namely that "information seems to be transmitted faster than light.".

Harry, perhaps I don't understand Quantum Mechanics, but perhaps you can tell me how the wave function affects physiology. As I had said earlier in this thread, I have been able to interpolate gravity into mechanotransduction in the lung, kidney, bone.....so by analogy how does wave function affect physiologic function?

My answer is absolutely certain - no. The reason is that quantum mechanics has limited application, and can not in principle explain the phenomenon of life, in other words, does not work for living systems, brain, consciousness, etc. This follows essentially from my dozy-chaos theory of molecular quantum transitions.

Vladimir Valentinovich Egorov, I wouldn't have thought that gravity would have been integral to vertebrate physiology until I discovered the cellular-molecular cell-cell signaling principles behind lung alveolar physiology either. So my question is where in the vertical integration of vertebrate physiologic evolution might quantum mechanics have been interpolated into the process? My guess is that it occurred very early in unicellular life when the cell membrane delineated the internal and external milieus (see attached). Your thoughts?

John, it's not quantum mechanics that is interpolated into the process, but let's take it more - physics. The question is, at what point, at a very early stage of evolution, as a result of the self-organization of molecular matter, both structural and dynamic, there is a transition from inanimate to living. Where is the border? What in physics is the cause of the appearance of living matter? On the first question, I can not answer for sure. But I know the answer to the second question. The cause of the self-organization of molecular matter is the new unique property of the electron, which binds the atoms inside the molecule, creating chaos in the process of molecular quantum transitions. This chaos is called dozy chaos. Dozy chaos is a necessary condition for the existence of molecular quantum transitions. The dozy chaos is the cause not only of molecular quantum transitions, but also of the whole variety of chemical reactions, and as a consequence, it is the origin of the evolution of molecular matter, up to the appearance of living matter and man himself. Please see the publications on my RG-website.

Dear Vladimir, thank you for your reply. Perhaps it would help if I expand on my approach to the problem of how physics affects biology. I have spent my career as a working cell biologist (50 years+) in elucidating the mechanisms involved in embryogenesis/morphogenesis. The big breakthrough in this area of research was the discovery about 50 years ago that there are soluble growth factors and their cognate receptors that determine pattern formation during normal embryo development. It is those signaling mechanisms that culminate in physiologic homeostasis at birth. When those signaling mechanisms breakdown they cause chronic diseases that are held in check by fibrosis. I have shown how gravity affects such mechanisms, for example. This phenomenon is best known as Wolf's Law, which applies to the remodeling of bone under tension, but the same mechanism applies to the lung, kidney and uterus, for example.

So my question is how a Schrodinger Wave might similarly affect physiology? In my reduction of the evolution of physiology as serial preadaptations, it is lipids that were the origins of life (see attached). Schrodinger Waves may affect such protocells, though I don't know how that manifests itself, do you. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Dear John,

I have shown in essence that quantum mechanics does not work already when describing molecular quantum transitions, not to mention some processes in living matter. My theory of dozy chaos is the replacement of quantum mechanics for describing molecular quantum transitions. This theory will eventually be applied to the description of processes in living matter. Schrödinger waves are related only to quantum mechanics and to discuss them with respect to processes in living matter is an illegal act. See my two articles that relate to this issue. The publication directly on the issue you are interested in, I'll probably do in the next six months.

1) Discovery of Dozy Chaos and Discovery of Quanta: Analogy Being in Science and Perhaps in Human Progress, DOI: 10.1007/978-3-642-33914-1_6

2) Dozy-chaos end of the human civilization, Journal of Ultra Scientist of Physical Sciences (Section B), Vol. 29 (4), pp. 87-96 (2017), DOI: 10.22147/jusps-B/290402

Best regards,

Vladimir

Vladimir, can you send me your articles ([email protected])?

Dear Harry Friedmann

I know the works of John S Torday and Vladimir Valentinovich Egorov, they are serious, scientific and of great depth, in addition to the great extension of their works that translate their experience based on evidences.

Schrödinger waves that describe and explain at the atomic level and at the level of its elementary particles the structure, dynamics and energy of the same; by means of the methods and instruments of Quantum Physics; they leave much to be desired at the molecular level, and can not be grossly extrapolated to the structure, dynamics and characteristics of the brain, mind, and human consciousness.

Therefore, I totally agree with the thought of Vladimir Valentinovich Egorov, in the sense that:

• Schrödinger waves are related only to quantum mechanics and discuss them with respect to processes in living matter is an illegal act

And even, it seems to me that apart from not being legal, it is pseudoscientific, and to some extent, neither ethical nor moral.

regards

Jose Luis

Estimado Harry Friedmann 

Conozco los trabajos de John S Torday y de Vladimir Valentinovich Egorov, son serios, científicos y de gran profundidad, amén de la gran extensión de sus trabajos que traducen su experiencia con base en evidencias.

Las ondas de  Schrödinger que describen y explican a nivel atómico y a nivel de sus partículas elementales la estructura, dinámica y energía de las mismas; por medio de los métodos e instrumentos de la Física Cuántica; dejan mucho que desear a nivel molecular, y no se pueden extrapolar en forma grosera a la estructura, dinámica y características del cerebro, la mente y la consciencia humana.

Por tanto, estoy totalmente de acuerdo con el pensamiento de Vladimir Valentinovich Egorov, en el sentido de que:

• Las ondas de Schrödinger están relacionadas sólo con la mecánica cuántica y discutirlas con respecto a los procesos en la materia viva es un acto ilegal

E incluso, me parece que aparte de no ser legal, es pseudocientífico, y hasta cierto punto, no ético ni moral.

Saludos

José Luis

Quantum mechanics is a general theory of physics. It contains all of the results of classical physics in the limits of validity of classical physics, but it does not have any need to be united with classical physics. In the same way, relativity does not need to be united with Newtonian physics because the results of relativity are the same as those of Newtonian physics, within the limits of validity of Nestonian physics.

As you have noticed, Roman, life has evolved from physics via self-organization as understood by the theory of dissipative structures. My claim is that the mind also has evolved from physics via self-organizattion of dissipative structures, once the interactions between "pivotal" elements of the self organized system are sufficiently strong to  be described by a single wave funcrion ( a pure state, not a mixture.). This is the secret of why a being composed of an almost infinite number of particles can act as a coordinated whole and say I.

Hi Roman

At the following link you will find evidence that self-organization can occur due to the development of electric and magnetic fields:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319618449_A_RANGE_OF_FIELDS_OVER_THE_SPECTRUM_IN_A_CELL_COLONY_MAY_CONTROL_THE_TIMING_OF_ITS_CELL_CYCLE

The quantum potential has a field structure that lies beneath it.

regards Tony Fleming

Conference Paper A range of fields over the spectrum in a cell colony may con...

Contribution to this debate:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283118400_Evolution_Transposition_Transformation_and_Flow_of_Information

Regards,

Marko Vitas

Article Evolution, Transposition, Transformation and Flow of Information

Self-organiizatio as described by Prigogine' s theory of dissipative structures is a classical theory, not caused by Bohm's quantum potential. However, when the energy content in the individual "particles" (the neurons) of the self-organized brain acquire a sufficiently high energy (ATP content) they connect (via neurotransmitters) causing their individuak wave functions to overlap. That is when the quantum potential becomes the nested top of the brain hierarchy.

For "" A quantum -mechanical version of Descartes' mind-body interaction" see the latest update in

https://www.researchgate.net/project/Prescriptive-Ontology-in-the-Hebrew-Bible

I must admit that I am greatly depressed by the scholastic character of this issue and the main channel of this discussion.

When did the scholastics discuss dissipative strucures, self-organization, fractals and quantum mechanics? Maybe depression isall they knew.

It from bit or bit fromit or it from bit and bit from it.

What comes first information (mind) or.life, the chicken or the egg? In the loop mechanism proposed ih the present project, the evolution by self-organization of the organism is intimately connected with the evolution by self-organization of the mind. The two evolutions are combined and interdependent.

The most advanced one acts as a pacemaker carrying the others along. Don't forget, the whole system is connected by self-organization. All the rest requires only the understancing of the double meanig of ψ  in the time-dependent Schroedinger equation: iħ ∂ψ∂t = Hψ , first as the carrier of infotmation and also as the pilot wave at the nested top of the brain hierarchy..

Agreed. But by combining quantum mechanics with self-organization, the hard problems do not look so hard anymore.

Tony and Harry, with all due respect, I don't disavow the findings in Tony's paper, but I would submit (again) that we already know that ion fluxes are the mediators of cell physiology, so why not think that the application of electrical or magnetic fields are mimicking them, not the source of such processes? I say this because in my reduction of the effect of gravity on cell-cell interactions, the distension of the endodermal and mesodermal cells of the lung alveolus caused coordinate up-regulation of both the ligand and the receptor, providing evidence for the physiologic nature of the mechanism regulating lung surfactant procution in the process of Ventilation-Perfusion Matching, the basis for alveolar physiology. I would ask you to identify the nature of the mechanism by which electricity or magnetism specitically affects physiology because that information is necessary in order to test the hypothesis using gain- and loss of function experiments.

John

There's also been work on the (not insignificant) effect of the Moon's gravitation on plant root growth. So it's not a question that electric and magnetic fields DONT have a physiological effect. These fields have forces and can have significant physiological effects in the macroscopic world. These forces are either rotational or translational and this would be the underlying effect.

{ASIDE I think we are all talking here assuming a top-down physiological mechanism and this might be right, but I point out that a bottom-up mechanism is an option too. One of the interesting facets of my work (aside from cell biology) is that field particles such as photons may have a composite nature. In other words there's a fractal structure not only in the biology but in the particles and fields as well.)

I have nothing at all against a potential being the macroscopic unit of consciousness, as we know the effects of transmembrane potentials have been known since Hodgkin and Huxley's work. I have studied the elasmobranch fish who have a physiology where these potentials add together to give a magnified sensory ability to discern the movement of fish in their environment

We can see in my paper there are perhaps computational methods of testing the endogenous fields against various biological stimuli; we have a sort of 'before' and 'after' test. It's computationally intensive but not certainly not impossible. This is exciting and can be applied across biology and possibly neurology

Hope this helps.