If we consider Gravity as particles i.e., Gravitons. Since, these gravitons also travels with the speed of light (Photons), and since photon itself cannot escape a Black Hole (Singularity), then Gravitons shouldn't be able to escape a Black Hole, and yet Black Hole has Gravity.
I might be confused in Gravitons.
And yes that's what I think.
Create question!
I think that this thought experiment definitely kills the graviton theory.
Yes agree.
However, if we consider gravity as shown in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, that would be much better in terms of explaining a Black Hole.
All know that nothing can escape the black hole not even light but there is a way you can escape it if you are a subatomic particle like graviton they are virtual particles which can travel in any speed and is not resticted by speed of light.
Hoping this answer is helpful.
@Shreya Ojha
I think the gravitons too travels with the speed of light, i.e., they are restricted by the speed of light. They can't travel faster then the speed of light.
And if an object has to escape a Black Hole 's pull then it has to overcome the gravitational pull; travel faster then the speed of light. Once, an object travel faster then the speed of light it must escape a Black Hole. (overcoming it's gravitational pull)
However this would depend on how you are considering gravity. If you are considering it as a particle i.e., gravitons then you have to travel faster then those gravitons (travelling at the speed of light), on the other hand, if you are considering gravity as it bending the space-time fabric (Einstein's General Theory of Relativity) then by travelling faster such that an object wouldn't fall into the curvature of the space-time fabric but it passes right through the fabric and eventually escaping the Black Hole.
“…If we consider Gravity as particles i.e., Gravitons. Since, these gravitons also travels with the speed of light (Photons), and since photon itself cannot escape a Black Hole (Singularity), then Gravitons shouldn't be able to escape a Black Hole, and yet Black Hole has Gravity. …..”
- that is rather questionable passage. Gravity isn’t “a particles”, that is the fundamental Nature Gravity force – as that are 3 known now “Weak”, “Electric”, and “Nuclear/Strong” Forces are;
- and all Forces in Matter act at corresponding interactions of the Forces’ “charges”, which [the charges] radiate the Forces’ “mediators”, which [mediators], if are radiated by some charge and hit in other charge, impact on the “irradiated” charge.
That is another thing, that in mainstream physics, first of all Standard [particles] Model as the Forces mediators real particles are postulated – photons for Electric Force, π-mesons for Nuclear Force, gluons for Strong Force; while in mainstream physics only these 3 Forces exist,
- since in the mainstream physics Gravity isn’t a Force, that is some interactions in systems “mass-spacetime-mass”, where masses “curve the spacetime” and the “curved spacetime”, forces masses to move along “geodesicses”, say, forces Earth to rotate around Sun,
- as that the standard now GR postulates, and so in mainstream physics/SM there are no gravitons.
Really, as that is rigorously scientifically shown in the Shevchenko-Tokarevsky’s informational physical model, in this case see Shevchenko-Tokarevsky’s 2007 initial model of Gravity and Electric Forces in
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355361749_The_informational_physical_model_and_fundamental_problems_in_physics , or briefly in
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366536729_The_informational_model_-Gravity_and_Electric_Forces_Version_2 ,
- Matter’s spacetime is the fundamentally absolute, fundamentally flat, and fundamentally “Cartesian”, [4+4+1]4D spacetime with metrics (cτ,X,Y,Z,g,w,e,s,ct), which fundamentally cannot be impacted, i.e. “contracted”, “dilated” , “curved”, etc., by anything in Matter and anything in Matter fundamentally cannot impact on the spacetime.
Besides in the whole model above quite rationally and in complete accordance with all experimental data it is postulated that the Matter’s ultimate base is the primary elementary logical structures – (at least) [4+4+1]4D binary reversible fundamental logical elements [FLE], which compose the (at least) [4+4+1]4D dense lattice, which is placed in the Matter’s spacetime above,
- and everything in Matter, including, say, particles, is/are only some specific disturbances in the lattice.
So, again , Gravity fundamentally is nothing else than the fundamental Nature force, which acts by its mediators however really Gravity mediators , and at least Electric and Nuclear Forces mediators, aren’t some particles as that is postulated in SM, where the real particles [photons and mesons] for some mystic reason and by some mystic way interact as some mystic “virtual” photons and mesons,
- the real Gravity, Electric, and Nuclear Forces mediators fundamentally are real, i.e. not “virtual”, specific disturbances in the FLE-lattice “circular gravitons”, “circular photons”, “circular mesons”– however, they aren’t particles, including [at least at statics] don’t carry some energy and so haven’t both the masses above.
So, while all real particles have fundamentally obligatorily both – inertial and gravitational - masses, and so yeah, really are impacted by Gravity Force, the Forces mediators, aren’t impacted by Gravity. As, say, Electric Force mediators “circular photons” aren’t attracted/repulsed by radiating electric charges also.
More see the links above and the 2023 SS&VT model of Nuclear Force” in
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369357747_The_informational_model_-Nuclear_Force, including note here, first of all, that all these 3 Forces really act by using unique scheme; and besides, the real particles photons, π-mesons, and real gravitons indeed seems relate to the Forces mediators – they have are “circular” parents, which transform into particles if are impacted, say, when an electric charge is accelerated.
To read comments to the paper it is useful as well. in comments it is explained why the really scientific and, again, in complete accordance with experiments, fundamental models don’t exist in the mainstream physics; despite that looks as too strange for any, if would be normal, science.
Cheers
Maybe this has some relation to this topic:
Preprint Stealthy orbitals hypothesis: quantum gates and singularities
The graphic charting of atomic orbitals into the form of chevrons suggests the existence of stealth orbitals occupying the quantum vacant space of the various electronic shells. It is proposed here, the hypothesis that these quantum gates allow transit of electrons from orbital to another, and that these gates can be accesses to quantum singularities without space-time. Singular arithmetic arrangements in the distribution of real and stealthy orbitals of certain genetic code components reinforces the hypothesis to existence of these quantum gates.
Siddharth Rana there is currently no gravitational theory which is complete and corect. Yes, GR seems to tick all the boxes, but it still requires Dark Matter. If DM is not found (which it isn't, and it won't in my opinion) then GR is incomplete and incorrect.
Gravitons is but one of many methods to try and explain how gravity works, but it has not succeeded. So in the 'theory', gravitons must move at the speed of light, which causes its own problems with the theory, as Sergey Shevchenko already pointed out.
On the other hand, gravitons are supposed to be virtual particles (fudge particles, in my opinion) which mean they can even escape black holes, because why not? It is 'virtual' after all so it can make its own rules.
So a graviton theory can only work if you allow v >> c.
Francois Zinserling,
That yours
“…in the 'theory', gravitons must move at the speed of light, which causes its own problems with the theory, as Sergey Shevchenko already pointed out. …..”
- is too strange passage. Any SS posts and papers cannot have, and so haven’t, the fundamentally wrong wording that is in your quote above. So I would ask you further to write wording “Sergey Shevchenko” only if you ask some questions to what is written in SS posts.
Returning to the thread question - the question is answered in the SS post 2 days ago now, more see this post and papers that are linked in the post, here briefly only point again:
- gravitons and photons are particles, while Electric and Gravity Forces mediators [“circular photons” and “circular gravitons”] aren’t particles;
- the Forces mediators don’t interact mutually, and so freely propagate being radiated by the Forces’ charges in 3D space with the speed of light, c, forming the Forces’ fields;
- gravitons and photons are particles, which are created at impacts on the Forces mediators, and interact with the mediators, at least now that is observed in Electric Force, when photons, say, scatter on electric charges and create e± pairs, and have Gravity charges, so, including, interact with Gravity field; what are gravitons interactions with Gravity fields is unknown now, though it looks as rather rational that they interact..
Cheers
@Preston Guynn
"Yes, you are confused. There is no useful theory coupling QM with GR. GR itself is utterly flawed,.."
Existance of black holes are independent from GR as we can observe them. At least we know that black holes are black, so light cannot escape. This means anything travelling with speed of light likely can not escape too. So a definition of graviton should consider this regardless to GR.
Maybe the solution is that the hypothetical graviton is "created" as a virtual boson particle at the edge of the black hole and not at the center
“…Maybe the solution is that the hypothetical graviton is "created" as a virtual boson particle at the edge of the black hole and not at the center….”
- some creation of something “virtual”, including a “virtual boson particle” is possible only in some strange mental constructions. For any normal human it is quite evident that Gravity is a real force – really is a fundamental Nature force, and by no means is some fundamentally impossible interactions in systems “mass-spacetime-mass”, where some “holes in spacetime” are possible.
Real “black holes” – that are indeed extremely exotic material objects that create indeed extreme Gravity fields – are quite real material objects, matter inside which has indeed extreme density, and indeed on surfaces around these objects that have “Schwarzschild” radiuses [or two times lesser radiuses in Newton Gravity] the escape velocity formally is equal to the speed of light, so on these surfaces indeed some non-trivial events/effects exist and happen,
- nonetheless on these surfaces really no any singularities occur – that is prohibited by energy conservation law, and singularities are in the GR only because of that in this theory the energy conservation law is violated.
What are “black holes” and what happens on the Schwarzschild [and Newton] radiuses surfaces really – see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355361749_The_informational_physical_model_and_fundamental_problems_in_physics , section “Cosmology”, what is the fundamental Nature Gravity force more concretely , including again about what are “black holes” and what happens on the Schwarzschild [and Newton] radiuses surfaces, see
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366536729_The_informational_model_-Gravity_and_Electric_Forces_Version_2.
Why, when really any, including “black holes”, gravitational charges create any gravitational fields, and, if at acceleration of a gravitational charge practically for sure particles “gravitons” are created, the gravitons escape without problems from the parent charge - like particles “photons”, if are created at acceleration of some electric charge without problems escape from the parent electric charge - see the SS posts above in the thread.
To read SS posts in https://www.researchgate.net/post/Why_gravitons_are_fluctuations_of_space_time_as_a_carrier_of_gravity_and_how_both_differs_in_3D_and_5D_space_from_observer_point_of_view#view=6485fcef446c61bf0907b590 it is useful as well.
Cheers
Siddharth Rana ,
The black hole is not what current academics describe it as:
Because there is no such thing! 'Black hole' is a part of an real a priori entity whic can be named clear what is in reality...
Some observation you can find in the next articles:
Article Fizikailag-metafizikailag bizonyítható a graviton létezése
(Hungarian)
From it exists English translation:
Abstract:
Research Proposal Physico-metaphysical proof of the existence of graviton (Fiz...
Conclusion:
Chapter Physico-metaphysical proof of the existence of graviton
graviton:
Chapter 230902-En-H-Gr-t
If someone helps me with English language correction i will translate to English.
My co-author of the next article:
Article Gravity a paradym shift in reasoning
wrote me the next:
’No quark
No, contradict you!
Our theory extended
It has Newton and Einstein too..’
Regards,
Laszlo
P. S:
It has geological, solar, and geochemical proves (conteining the classic model of Clarke–Goldschmidt).and concordant with ancient traditional Chinese philosophy, it is connected to the electromagnetism. gives reasonable explanation to the gravity waves and it has the graviton...