I have looked/paid attention but have not seen or heard of any. In January 2006 we set up a low light camera to take photos of Augustine with the idea of catching lightning in and above the ash column. We did not find any but instead got interesting results about the dome and rockfalls. Poor weather prevented lightning observations during the explosive eruptions.  My hunch is that these lightning types are there for the larger eruptions, but it will take special conditions to confirm them.

Hi Devendraa, Many thanks for the info.

Hi Steve,

These phenomena are not lightning as you know and one needs very specific and adapted equipement to detect and image them. They occur at 100km + elevation. I do not believe they can be observed from the ground.

One expects too much light scattering of visible light between 0 and 100 km elevation; even aurorae borealis and australis need to be observed during dark (and cloudless) nights to see anything.

Perhaps looking at abstract volumes again from successive AGU sessions on "Blue jets, sprites and elves above thunderstorms" will indicate clearly the sort of equipment ionosphere atmospheric science experts use during their campaigns.

I believe it is only a matter of time before those are detected and imaged and I anticipate it does not have to be above a particularly intense explosive eruption. I expect a good proportion of VEI 3 (and above) explosive eruptions to have them.

I anticipated these phenomena can be expected to be more intense the more intense the degree of magma fragmentation, ie. the higher the magma discharge rate as well as the higher the fine ash proportion in the initial erupted size distribution.

My expectations are also that they should be particularly intense above phreato-subplinian (or phreatoplinian) eruptions or above eruptions where the ashcloud rises from extensive pyroclastic flows running over and vaporizing water or ice, or above ashclouds rising above pyroclastic density currents rising after extensive travel through a moist boundary layer for water (ie. in the sub-tropics). 

One may also anticipate that the intensity of these ionospheric phenomena would correlate with the recorded rate of lightning discharges in the troposphere and with some aspects relating to mixed phase aggregation (mass loading of mixed phase aggregates...) and rate of fall of mud rain, accretionary lapilli and other aggregation pellets from the eruptions and to the extent of atmosphere-climate-modifying gas and aerosol scavenging.

In some cases or in the future, from near-continuous monitoring  of perturbations in the ionosphere,  I expect one may be able to contribute something to an early warning system for eruptions and to provide valuable information about its physical and microphysical parameters. 

I gather this could be particularly helpful in remote places such Alaska, Kamtchatka and for international air traffic safety purposes to start with.

With all the advances in studies of the ionosphere above thunderstorms, I expect it should not take very much longer now before those are detected and the results published (if it is not already the case).

Exciting prospect !

Thanks for the exchange.

Greetings to both of you,

Gerald

I suppose that it is very difficult. Usually the red sprites and blue jets are registered from aircrafts. Nobody will want to fly inside the volcano eruption ash cloud, the all flights are canceled during eruption. It is possible if the observations are done from the top of the high mountain, but I did not know any publication of this kind.

Hi Sergey,

Great many thanks for the insights.

Clearly I am not suggesting flying into an ashcloud

(even though Bill Rose and many others have been asking for decades to have remotely operated instruments flown directly into volcanic clouds to help validation of remote sensing data and inverse modelling from them...and I agree with the huge benefit this could bring in terms of in situ observations, data and radical advances in understanding...; atmospheric scientists, meteorologists and climatologists have had such opportunities and funding for doing this for more than 50 years...advances on volcanic cloud understanding have been hindered from lack of funding for this kind of radical cross-disciplinary research)

to see these phenomena that develop 100km or so above the volcanic ashcloud.

If measurements can be made from aircrafts in flight, I guess it may be possible to make measurements using upper tropospheric or lower stratospheric drones and even have those flying quite far away from the ashcloud if there is an implemented no fly zone due to the eruption ?

I suspect such high-altitude drones are used at least by the military and the private sector (ex-military spinoffs). I'll try and find out.

I remember serving years back as EU expert, evaluating an EU proposal where the PIs proposed to use such high-altitude drones (declassified ones or inspired by the military ones) for volcano monitoring, early detection and warning and research.

I thought this opportunity promising at the time (about 10 years ago).

I have 2 follow-up questions.

1. Weren't any suitable measurements made from the Space Shuttle ?

2. Could it not be possible to make suitable measurements from satellites, or could it already be the case such measurements and imagery are available. 

Many thanks for the clarification.

Greetings from Belgium,

Gerald

Satellites are very far. It is practically impossible to distinguish the thunderstorm flash and blue jet flash. The best option - is high mountains. You can consult with Torsten Neubert http://yandex.ru/clck/jsredir?from=yandex.ru%3Byandsearch%3Bweb%3B%3B&text=&etext=808.1aYGiOQYPs3VvnA_17BXtiTNzcufreEc2BRLSZQhSiP_Ig2gttDMlBi6i_x-m8G9cYkh-vfdpXW8CtaQUkYbrg.5041d5cd9acd0db900a2b3e5df00ed146259c760&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmi.dk%2Ffileadmin%2Fuser_upload%2FRapporter%2FTR%2F2000%2Ftr00-24.pdf&uuid=&state=PEtFfuTeVD4jaxywoSUvtIOJU2Qw4v%2FYLiaF1%2FGsqZGwYP7uFaStdQ%3D%3D&data=&b64e=3&sign=4350738780a6d03fad38c7569c1cc8c1&keyno=0&cst=AiuY0DBWFJ5fN_r-AEszk9spB_TclkI-1-dqUxewc4k21hANMA70-JrC75L-ZqdndJVgZqAyWi084ddJnikdnbbixnjGPhFgwKD_Zj4twUfIHhqJJRBiv869UbqQq78n9T03qO-g3d1_I4b2qDEr_s8IuIUjRhRIEb1fBHrBs-T7cgZAl0qT3_AnExHcoNwVs0_YC1ahYkiird591AXdeGBrpfqlVaWihrMoSexakIm32fb0cASyD09Xaq007eMDHYelFWGFSrtxhEiB26wC9Uq6Tkm1NO6s0fucv7sxphdbOwBKJ5G1eLTPX0Ue1UYdwK_1PE4HgNKMiqpWTRateZeaBcF89ZfQaG95VeBlN74drJnN16eoduHTDrdmJ94GHBcpeug50kiU5jVImuf754d2kInbDovMqwLkJGqVmTNFB1X3nbl6Y4smOWu5otkuKz5cN413yoPUvgXD_AEs-1nEv95-mF7n&ref=orjY4mGPRjk5boDnW0uvlpAgqs5Jg3quKLfGKhgcZzlBh-w_NInSOT_i2SDny2wbziMtX1JXAMv99UphvsJncxfTAg_TJ-k5Vp1v9iaHsorI1AxODpGDhA&l10n=ru&cts=1441971596693

from Danish meteorological institute or other european scientists

http://eurosprite.blogspot.cz/2012/07/odd-tle-detection-from-central-europe.html

Dear friends, Thank you for the stimulating exchanges.

Dear Devendraa, dear Sergey, thank you for the links you suggested.

Dear Ioan, I am unfamiliar with the Pokrofski and Dubessy 2015 and would also like to examine it. If you could also send me a copy this would be great.

I am puzzled by what link there may be, if any, between the presence of Hauyne in magmas and having electromagnetic phenomena in the ionosphere above volcanic thunderstorms ? I am afraid I am not following the reasoning.

Could you enlighten us, dear Ioan ?

I am more familiar with the presence of Hauyne in silica-undersaturated magmas and its presence in volcanic products (pumice and ash, lavas). Hauyne is an accessory mineral found in magmas and volcanic products in alkaline volcanic provinces. These include rifting environments, as well as aborted rifts.

Examples include the Eifel Volcanic Province in Germany and the East African Rift. Spectacular examples of volcanic settings where Hauyne is notable that I am familiar with are the Laacher See volcano, where the eruption emptied a substantial fraction of its magma chamber so that there the relationships between the magma differentiation and link to volcanic eruption products has been established by the Hans Schmincke group in a remarkable way over the years.

Hauyne is also a notable (and diagnostic) mineral in the 4000 years BP plinian eruption products from the Rungwe Volcano in SE Tanzania which was wonderfully studied by Karen Fontijn and colleagues. Both of these researchers are on RG.

I am sure others can fill us in on other remarkable occurrences of hauyne in various contexts but right now I do not follow what link you make with our blue jets, sprites and elves.

I look forward to hearing your insights on this, dear Ioan.

Kindest regards to all,

Gerald

As far as the Sodalite group is concerned, Sodalite, Haüyne and Nosean are three end-members, with Sodalite containing (Cl-) ions rather than (SO4)(-2) ions. Nosean contains (SO4)(-2) ions. Haüyne contains a greater number of (SO4)(-2) ions in the mineral structure (Deer, Howie and Zussman). 

All these minerals of the sodalite family, in a nutshell, are found in Na-rich alkaline silica-undersaturated volcanic or plutonic rocks of nepheline-syenite plutonic family and tephrite-phonolite eruptive suite.

Another notable locality for Haüyne in magmas is the Alban Hills Volcanic Province of Italy.

In case this helps in any way ?

Dear Ioan,

I went to view short films on the fumaroles with blue colour. They are beautiful and fascinating. It is interesting how one interest can lead to another and to stimulated and sometimes unexpected interactions between people.

At this point I cannot see a link with electromagnetic phenomena in the ionosphere though and I am still interested in hearing from anyone who may have captured evidence of blue jets, elves and red sprites above volcanic eruption clouds (in the ionosphere).

With best wishes and kind regards to everyone,

Gerald