I would say uploading Mind has difficulty in making brainwaves perceptible , recognizable by our super computer with AI , actually it has already been possible to some extent
@Nkululeko Kunene sir, thats wonderful aspect metaheuristics , mesta world meta objects meta thinking
It is amazing that a chemical reaction in your brain can trigger a memory from 30 years ago. I have two wall charts, about 40" X 60" each, together they show the complete map of chemical reactions in the human body. I need to do some more research when I get the time for it.
I can normally figure out what people say but "if you complement me tasks" is confusing. Please clarify this comment. I need to find the charts. I think I placed them in the basement (I have a huge basement) about 20 years ago. I am organized, but there is a tall stack of drawings and posters.
The chart is organic chemistry intensive. I did try to understand it for a while. I am a mechanical engineer. I do know a lot of organic chemistry, but this chart is way ahead of me.
I will locate it and then I can tell you where it came from. I think it was published by a drug company for advertisement. I will look for it this week.
I found the information, my memory was off by a bit, it was 30 years ago. The charts were put out by Boeringer Mannheim Biochemica. The chart is called "Biochemical Pathways Index". there are two books of reference indexes, one for each half of the chart. The one I have is written in English, but according to the paperwork the originator is:
Boeringer Mannheim GmbH
Biochemica
PO Box 310120
D-6800 Mannheim 31
Germany
To clarify my point above, there are only two things that can happen in your brain, one is a chemical reaction and the second is an electrical stimulation. From what I know, the electricity can not be stored.
Nkululeko, you told me about the TPJ, thank you. Can you tell me how that electrical synap calls a 30 year old memory? Can you tell me why (physically not psychologically) some memories are stronger than others?
Still working on ACT-R, OpenCV, Basic programming language and Lisp programs, now I found more to learn in another program also - OpenNI (natural interaction). I will be a while catching up to where I am. I will send out an up-date email soon.
Sorry for the lack of communication, there is a medical problem in our family. Nkululeko, please do continue with OpenNI and ACT-R. We will continue with the other programs and hardware as time permits. Give me a few days to send you an email.
Rajneesh, These are two huge posters, about 40" (1 meter) x 60" (2 meter) each, distributed about 30 years ago. Chemical flows travel from one page to the other, and top to bottom. The information on them is small, typewriter size. If you want a personal copy of this, maybe a newer version, contact the originator. According to the paperwork the originator is:
Boeringer Mannheim GmbH
Biochemica
PO Box 310120
D-6800 Mannheim 31
Germany
They may have this on line now. Please let the group know what you find.
The main thing to understand with ACT-R is that it is a Neural Network Layer and a rule-base layer integrated into a simple cognitive engine, and that it's main claim to fame, is that it can be used to analyze and simulate any system that acts like a rulebase, but has fuzzy inputs. Modern Cognitive Engines have to have at least two, and maybe more ACT-R engines operating in parallel to capture even a modicum of intelligence, but by linking them together, and integrating them into "Modules" you have at least a chance of capturing some of the functions of the brain.
LaMuth, has suggested that using his modular approach, based heavily on cerebral/Thalamic function, A.I. is practical, but I think that claiming that the Thalamo-Cortical loop is the most important loop from the functional perspective, is to ignore the need to understand the other cortical loops, and how they increase the capacity of the basic Cortico-Thalamic Loop.
When mind is uploaded to a computer / digital system, how 'emotions' simulated? , it's related with hormones also? How it simulated ?
That is a very good question.
I am not sure of the Attribution, but I think Domasio worked in Germany with a group of researchers who studied the idea that there were 5 main emotional drives, and somewhere around 5 different levels at which they operated, and that this supposedly covered the full range of human emotion.
The hormones are more a chemical signal to the body, to make it preset things like heart rate, and muscle speed, in such a way as to make the body more responsive in emergencies etc.
My theory is that at the implicit memory level, the limbic system is used to prioritize the partitions of the implicit data-cloud. At the Thalamus Level, it is used to prioritize the pre-activation of neural groups, and separate the partitions of the implicit memory despite the fact that functional clusters can involve wide ranging parts of the cerebral cortex. At the prefrontal cortex, it is used to select the current priority from among multiple functional clusters/partitions, and to isolate features of the clusters, so that they can be evaluated for priority. Then it is used to inform the Modelling mechanism of the comfort level to be expected from some future action, and thus to help prioritize actions. Limbic feedback influences the choice of skill memories strung together to make compound actions/processing schemas. Finally it parameterizes the experience of our environment giving it meaning.
Right Kees, the feeling of knowing, the tip of the tongue feeling, the feeling of comfort, the feeling of self, these feelings, parameterize our experience, but aren't linked to the endocrinal system as much as the feeling of pain, the feeling of power, the feeling of pleasue, etc. So when we talk about emotions, we tend to favor the endocrinal systems inputs, and ignore the meta-cognitive feelings that help us navigate within our own minds.
I have been promoting the idea that there is a missing layer of psychology that sits between the Neural Psychology, and the Organic Psychology, a layer I call the tissue psychology level. As well we need to grasp the even lower level, the biochemical level, to capture what we already know about the brain.
When you say, however that hormones are more basic than neural activity, however, we are going to have to reach much further back, to find out, than you might think, in that even some of the worm like animals still have neural activity.
It is my contention that Multiple Cell Organisms need to synchronize their clocks just like cyano-bacteria, and that probably the most important biochemical pathway is the Phosphorylation Pathway, that is critical to synchronizing cellular clocks. The organism needs to have a secretion that puts all the cellular clocks on the same synchronization point, and syncronizes them to the environmental day/night cycle. One aspect of muscle contraction, is that it is a heavy user of phosphates, and in so doing, needs a secondary signal, such as adrenal signals to produce more phosphorylated chemicals so that the body has more energy when it is working quickly. These have to be separate signals, because the short term adrenal function, must NOT change the speed at which the cell counts day and night.
I would suspect that even sea anemones and box-type jelly fish would have this mechanism, although, it is probably easier to recognize at the cellular level, than at the organism level.
I have two (2) articles that were published in "The Scientist" Magazine, volume 25, issue 9 - Sept 2011 for the aging brain. The first and most appropriate for this discussion ...
http://creationbyrpd.com/Aging.htm the aging brain and memory
and another article is just as interesting, "to pee or not to pee".
http://creationbyrpd.com/GABA.htm
Please, as always, feel free to let me know what you think.
That is a good point Rich, Everyone assumes that as we age, we will be able to upload our brains, and project our lives into the future, but if there has been degradation of the granular cells, in the hippocampus, would the upload be more viable, or would the image of the upload be forever senile.
In my model of the brain, the hippocampus is critical in the mapping of data in the cerebral cortex to concepts via some Meta-index function. It is interesting to note that the problem in normally aging populations, is that they miss the right access map, due to probably a contextual reference built by the granular cells. The difference between this and senescience brought about by deterioration of the Entorhinal cortex in Alzheimers, where I assume the indexing mechanism is formed, is subtle, the net effect is the same, a sort of misremembering, but the reasons are different, and the probability of being able to recover the memory later is lower, if the context didn't form, but the index is intact, than if the index didn't form but the context is intact, simply because the context triggers the memory, when stimulated by the meta-index. However if LTP is critical for context formation, and methylation is a factor in loss of context formation, then multiple events that promote LTP, can be achieved, and in some cases where methylation does not affect the DNA expression, the context can form, making the index based losses much more serious than the context based losses. In other words normally aging people can still learn, while Alzheimers tend to quit learning at some stage when their index gets damaged enough.
Drugs affecting sensory association areas in cerebral cortex may produce such effects, like high dose ( piracetam + lorazepam + crisoprodol), also like LSD.
wow....great discussion goin on...................i am a firm believer of transhumanism
but i've got a simple question when transferring the human memory to a organic matter like another brain or in any computer like thing.........the most basic thing which we forget is that ...........our reaction to a situation depends completely on our past memories which we call experience.......so what science tells us is that........new synaptic connections evolve every time we experience something.......so itz not just like adding alien set of data into a new brain.....there are changes taking place in brain in associaton to our experiences in life..........
and further more the only thing that seperates us from all other species on earth is that we possess consciousness........and though with technological approach we can scan our brain but i doubt that we might loose consciousness........
2-other point i would like to mention is d problem associated with qualia -internal subjective experience......when suppose u got an arm amputated ......lack of sensory input from one organ leads to so much plastic changes in a adult brain ......and say u transfer human memory to an artificial machiene.........it looses itz sense or QUALIA..........so we must approach in a way merging technology with the main theme focussed on organic brain robotic boby.......somethin they call animat.......
Artificial body can earn sensory system too. Which maybe more efficient than that of human, we can see the colours of infrared and uv zone. We can hear the sound of further frequency, if we want. We can add more new sense systems. And can made todays systems stronger.
Before we get to the technology involved, we had maybe better understand the nature of the problem we are trying to solve.
One reason uploading is going to be so difficult, is that neural networks can't be easily organized into a discrete memory system. It's not that it can't be done, but, the body doesn't even try. The nature of the implicit memory makes it relatively difficult to find out what is stored in the memory, even when we directly connect to the neurons with implants. This is confounded even worse by the fact that the mapping of stimulus to neuron is individualistic, and even individuals of the same species do not have a common map.
Some work with SOM based modules that analyze the signals from implants has been effective, but essentially it means that each implanted probe, needs to have it's own translator, to find the actual data being dealt with, because a common solution can't be found. There is some cross over within a species once the mapping is done, but the actual connectivity is not standardized.
The most interesting recent work, has been that done on the Ventrolateral PFC, where we think the Short Term Working Memory is located. You have probably read about the numeracy of monkeys, and the finding of locations that define the locations of certain colors, in the Ventrolateral PFC, but what you may not have heard, is the older scientists determining that in fact the locations were the same cells, and therefore what the Ventro-Lateral PFC is, is less a map of where information is in the brain and more a buffer where the output of the cortex is sampled depending on what we are processing in our minds at the time.
In essence the whole cortex can be time-multiplexed to the buffer, at any point in time, and which part of it actually is, depends on the signals coming from the cortex, and some feedback via the ACC which links to the Central Network found by the MRI post processing work done with DSI, that links to modules in the cerebral cortex, and acts via indirect connections to basket neurons to suppress data that is not currently slated for reflection via the Working Memory.
The Map, however is likely to be in another part of the brain. The episodal memory, but in my model, that map is also indirectly connected, and doesn't map the whole implicit memory, merely the parts that are involved with previous processing requirements. In fact, if my model is at all correct, the conversion of a memory from the implicit memory system to the explicit memory system, via the short-term memory, also acts to lock the memory into the medium term, and long-term memory systems.
However it is the Context only access of the implicit memory system that causes the most problems in trying to "Download". You can probably map the explicit memories of the declarative memory, but the only way to detect the presence without going to the bio-chemical level of a medium term memory in the implicit memory is to challenge it with a known stimulus. Short-term (Synaptic) memories can be found by ion channel activation outside the cell, and longterm (Dendritic) memories by network analysis, but the only way we know to measure mid-term memories is by testing a puree of nerve tissue, and all that gives is a statistical likelihood of there being mid term memories, no actual idea of what is being stored.
Can any one tell me what happens with respect to qualia when brain uploading takes place?
I am listening to all the comments about down loading your memory into a storage/retrieval device, it is very interesting. Graeme, it might be easier to go the other way first (upload to our brain), then develop into the down load. It might be more interesting to load information from the storage device to our memory. Schools would be supplemental. Children could "plug in" for a short time each day, and a 10 year old kid could have the knowledge of (6) six PhD's. Muscle coordination would probably remain UN-affected because it is a muscle condition or neural condition. Surgeons and artists would still need to develop hand/eye coordination. Just a thought.
Well, you have a point there Rich, we can stimulate the neurons through implants, just like we can read from them. However, the problem is to link the stimulus to the implicit memory, The explicit chunking map for a specific memory, or memories that were generated as part of the Declarative memory system. If we load them in at the short-term memory, without a reference to the implicit memory, then we are essentially bypassing the implicit memory, this means there will be no stored meaning for the data. If we store them later in the system, such as by using links in the hippocampal mappings, then how do we link them back into the implicit memory system? In fact there is reason to assume that there is about a 2 year gap between the time we begin to create meta-data, and the time it becomes available at the implicit memory level.
The best level, I can see to approach would be the 4th and 5th laminae outputs from the thalamus. Essentially, we could interpret the sensory inputs from the Thalamus, and link the implant to the 5th laminae pre-activations, to activate natural addressing, monitoring the Ventro-lateral PFC to link to both the implicit data-cloud, and to the equivalent explicit Chunking map. Given this configuration, it might be possible to do a SOM linking implicit memory neural groups to chunking maps, and subchunking maps, which would then, if we ran a parallel meta-index, allow us to possibly influence the implicit memory addressing to allow, data transfer that the brain can make sense of. It is quite a bit more complex, and would probably take a lot longer than a direct interface in a discrete memory brain, but as Fodor said back in 2002, "The Mind Doesn't work that way!
In Indian literature, mind has been regarded as the cause of all activities including functions of brain. It is not only an aspect but also cause of whole creation of the universe. However, external world is not real but only apparent. All worldly objects are dreams. As there are infinite reflections of the sun from various drops of water, and the sun being the only one, similarly the truth is the only one and the worldly objects are merely its infinite reflections. All lives, jÏvas, are merely reflections of the one infinite Being. According to this concept body, mind or self are dream. However, the reality is Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute . In Sanskrit grammar, the derivative meaning of the term ‘manas’ too indicates the same . The term manas (mind) also may be formed from the root man adding suffix asun =‘manah’. In its wider sense it is also applied to all the mental powers. It is also considered as vijyana in Vedanta and Budhist systems because it is the cause of the knowledge. Nevertheless, in most of the Philosophical treatises, it is indicative of the internal organ of perception and cognition. In fact, manas is the faculty through which thoughts enter or by which objects of sense impact the self. In this way, it is distinct from atman or purusa as described in Vedanta system. The status of mind has very important role in the context of theory of cognition in almost all schools of Indian Philosophy, but their approach of interpreting the term in the process of cognition is different. The basic difference between mind and brain is that the former is a conceptual construction; on the other hand, the latter is a complex construction. The realities accessed through internal experience are psychology, philosophy and spirituality. On the other hand, the material or the physical sciences are accessed through external experience. However, immaculate reality must be in accordance with both kinds of experiences. The mind has been regarded as the faculty of consciousness and thought. It is a conceptual construction and the subject of analysis under the psychology. However, the brain is a physical structure and a complex, attached to several complex elements such as nerves, which when hurt or injured, affects whole body. Therefore, it can be analyzed by the respective specialists of medical science. This is the reason that even a psychologist or psychiatric treats his patient based on the behavior of the patient.
The basic difference between artificial intelligence and natural intelligence is that from the former we get information, on the other hand, from the latter we acquire knowledge. Mind-brain and body may be compared with machine or computer. The basic relationship of mind to brain may be understood by comparing its function with that of a machine or computer. The mind and the brain may be compared respectively with the software and the hardware of a computer with CPU where user’s role is just like self. According to ancient Indian literature, mind is inner organ in its subtle form and cause of cognition. It works like software. The Software is the programs and other operating information used by a computer, which is invisible and untouchable. Without software machine is useless. The hardware is the body of the computer, which has various parts such as hard disk, rams, CPU etc., and connected with electric wires. However, CPU is the main, which works like a nerve centre in the human brain. In short, all visible and touchable parts are hardware. Thus, broadly speaking, there are two main divisions to the proficient operation of computers - hardware and software. While the comparisons are not completely accurate, it might help to view the software as the plan and fuel that help a computer to run. Without software, computers are only showpiece boxes of plastic and metal just like the human body without mind. The main difference between computer and human is that in respect of the former, the predominant causes of presenting the various information are their instruments - output and input devices. However, in the case of the latter, specific causes are the organs. The eyes, ears etc. are just the external instruments but the real are organs (indriyas), which are the real seats of perception. The organs concerning these faculties are a nerve centre in the brain. The each organ is separate centre for its respective instrument. We are able to see something only when the sense organ is attached to the objects, and the mind as such has nothing to do in this process. However, the cognition of the visual is achieved only when the mind is attached to sense organ. For example when someone watches any figures on a screen, for him it is only something appearing on the screen. But, its cognition is possible only when the mind attaches the sense organ of the vision (eye) with the image (object). A sense organ is the specific cause of the perception, not the instrument cause. The sense organ is not the cause of the knowledge, it only collects data for the mind to analyze. Moreover, for all this, action is necessary. We can see and hear simultaneously. It is because the mind attaches itself partially to both the centres. Thus, the instruments are external objects made of gross materials (pa¤ca-mahÈbhÊta). However, organs are internal part made of subtle or finer materials (tanmÈtra) as these are the centres. The combination of all these organs in addition to the inner instrument has been regarded as subtle body of man, li×ga or sÊk„ma-„arÏra. The brain works like the microprocessor in a computer. The spinal cord and nerves are like the gates and wires, without their connectivity the function of body or machine is not possible. Like that, the heart is the centre of several nÈÇÏs or channels.’ There are one hundred and one nÈÇÏs of the heart. Among these; one goes upward to the brain by which individual achieves the seat of immortality. Moreover, remaining others go to various places and only become the cause of death’’. . From the Vedic literature, we learn that there is a conscious self that is distinct from the machine or the body. Obviously, we are conscious of every single impulse that the sense of our body/machine deals with. There is complete interaction. However, the cause of interaction is unknowable; there is no concrete answer of this question, in science or philosophy. But, when things come in connectivity with act, then only we come to know about all these.
Wow... I have some doubts that we can just take a historical discipline that is religiously and culturally linked to one people and replace science with it. Science being linked to many cultures, and by attempting to be objective despite those cultures, need not kowtow to the pre-existing or revealed knowledge of that culture/religion.
Further, as an A.I. researcher, and Artificial Consciousness Researcher with a smattering of background in NeuroScience, I find the parallels you are making between computers and the brain somewhat annoying, if only because I understand just how different the architectures of these two devices really are.
I suggest you read Jerry Fodor's book "The mind doesn't work that way" printed in 2002. In it he makes some cogent arguments, that I happen to agree with, that using the computer as a model for the brain, is impractical.
Now, I am not agreeing with the limitations he imposes on our translation of the minds functioning to technical devices, because I have fought with the difference between implicit and explicit memory, and have developed a model of Dual Mode Cortex that meets the criteria I believe necessary to have explicit memory within a Neural System, and have projected from that a distributed processing system, and from that, a command interface for self programming, that is similar to a computer command language, but involves parallel pseudo-sequences instead of macros. But just because the processor at this late state reflects computer knowledge, does not mean that the brain is a computer.
Further, although the jury is still out on the spirit thing, Science has yet to embrace the separate unknowable consciousness, if only because we are still hopeful we can at least simulate it. As far as I know, nobody has ever been able to prove the existence of a separate "Spirit", and therefore we must take even the writings of the Vedic masters as anecdotal evidence rather than proof. While the Vedic history is perhaps the closest thing pre-science to today's science, it follows a different path to enlightenment, and that path, may come to quite different interpretations than science will, if only because of its cultural roots. Transhumanism, which Downloading and Uploading are about, is a projection based to some extent on the assumptions of the ability to translate human understanding into a computer or similar device.
As I pointed out, where we search for an interface is critical to the success of such a venture. My Model suggests that it will not be a simple thing but will involve mechanisms that learn the brain in-situ and as a result, need to communicate with the brain on its own level, rather than downloading like a chip. There may in fact be a need to phase the downloads to allow the brain up to 2 years between updates for its own processes to catch up depending on where we input the data.
That would also put some great cognitive load on the already burdened short term memory memory...but may be possible some day.
The mind is not only a mystery state of the brain but it is the whole body. So it will not be enough to upload the brain state to save the mind.
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